Reducing frame size of cattle

I'm with genebo, you can find a good size Dexter bull, black and polled if you want. I sold one a couple of years ago that measured 48 " at the hip. Something like that should work for you, get a smaller frame and lots of beefy qualities, and very efficient on grass.

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given the oppurtunity, a cow will always take the wrong gate...Baxter Black
www.newdaydexters.com
Irish Dexter Cattle for sale..............

I've got a 3/4 Lowline Angus bull who is 48" at the hip and stays roly poly fat on grass and hay only. We use him to breed our smaller cows, both Pineywoods and Dexter. His calves are always smaller than him, with an occasional micro mini thrown in. Haven't had to pull a calf yet.

We are going to retire him this year, though, because I want to keep one of his sons. Want a 7 year old bull? The current plan is to eat him, but he's got good genes and is registered. I really ought to try to sell him, I guess.....

I heard a very well respected cattleman talk on this subject. He advocated breeding heifers @ 12 months to low birth weight, high wean weight bulls. Claimed by breeding them younger the heifers would never reach their size potential but their offspring should still have the genetic potential for the feedlot.

It would require the right bull but I can see its potential.

I once had a heifer calve at 18 mo (long story behind that one), and your respected cattleman is correct, it gave me a stunted calf and a stunted heifer. And, I almost lost both of them if I hadn't pulled the calf as soon as I saw the feet.

It wouldn't be quite as bad if your heifers got bred at 12 mo., but I bet you'd be pulling a lot of calves, losing a few heifers, and would have a bunch of awful little calves the first year.

I've always heard that you can't starve a profit out of a cow, and I doubt if you can stunt a profit out of one either.

If you can't make a profit with some moderate-sized 1100-1200 lb cows, I doubt if you can make a profit by playing games and purposely limiting their growth to make them "more efficient".

Do some research on what are called Moderators. They are lowline cross for commercial sale, sounds alot like what you are wanting.

I don't think he was referring to the first calf having potential, it would obviously be stunted but the genetic potential of future calves. It'd take a lot of management and I don't know about the long term profitability but its an interesting theory.

I would lose all respect for that "well respected" person if they advocated this practice. No matter how carefully you select the genetics there will be outliers and you are intentionally dooming some of those heifers and calves to death, a higher percentage than the norm of calving around 2 years of age and using a calving ease bull for heifers. Plus, to keep up a supply of replacement heifers coming into the herd, you would have to do this every year to at least some of the yearling heifers. It wouldn't be a one-time thing because you constantly need replacements coming in to replace cows who drop out. I would imagine the breed-back rate for the second calf would not be good for those immature heifers, a lot of replacements needed right off the bat.

The "little cow raising a big calf" concept is nothing new. But you don't have to deliberately stunt a cow's growth and unnecessarily kill heifers to make it happen. There are moderate size cattle out there already. If a cow is raising a calf to around 50% of her own weight by weaning, on grazing and/or hay, she is performing very efficiently in her environment.

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It is still best to be honest and truthful; to make the most of what we have; to be happy with the simple pleasures and to be cheerful and have courage when things go wrong.
Laura Ingalls Wilder

I've listened to him speak enough and on a variatity of subjects not to lose respect for him. His entire presentation that day was about thinking outside the box. Is 12 really that much difference then 14 when it comes to breeding age and labor issues? I'm not saying that to defend the theory just an honest ?.

I know one local rancher that will bred younger then 12. His opinion is if shes physically able she's ready. Usually tries to bred heifers on their second cycle. I don't agree with that but he seems to do alright that way.

Don't think the first calf will be any different genetically. And, don't bet on that heifer having a small calf, doesn't always happen that way. What you have is a small cow who doesn't reach her genetic potential, but will still have calves with hers and the bulls genetics. This can still result in a calf which is much too large for a underdeveloped heifer to deliver. Results are not always good.

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* I'm supposed to respect my elders, but its getting harder and harder for me to find one. .*-

If you want to downsize your cows, my advice is to use a good Lowline bull on your cows. I have a fullblood Lowline bull who breeds both my lowline percentage cows and my tall Limousin/Angus who stands at least a foot taller at the shoulder! An old farmer once told me a bull can 'jump' 12 inches to breed a cow so guess it's true. For more information visit this lowline website page as it'll tell you more. http://www.usa-lowline.org/more.html We love our Lowlines and their beef - we had steaks for supper from one we finished on grass and talk about mouth watering, tender meat! Downsizing your cows frames isn't a bad idea at all, you can raise more beef per acre with smaller, more efficient cows. Key is 'efficient'. Also, breeding a young bull isn't going to get you lighter birthweights - the genetics are the same whether the bull is 1 year old or 10 years old. With lowlines you won't be pulling calves. period.

Thanks cedarcreekranch, I will check the website out.

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I second the lowline. My bull is over a1000# and about 4-3". I was told if the cow is in the mood they will find a way. 8 calves on the ground and no help needed. I am guessing. you would drop a size every year. I think Agmans are a 4.5 to a 5. And with lowline you get to call them Angus
Utopia farm in TN
Steve

Glad to read your post cedar creek, Im new to this cattle business. We are starting slow. I did a lot of reading and listening. We bought a couple of full size angus(black) cows with calves. Had them bred with a full size angus bull . And bought a 3/4 lowline bull 7mos old last nov..Our three cows calved between Xmas and the superbowl. Im not sure but I think the little guy has them all bred now.

You can downsize in one generation with the right bull. We bought an angus bull from a local producer a few years ago to get some smaller cows, we had some beefmaster/angus crossed cows that seemed to be a little big 1300# or so. All of the heifers that we've kept are about a 1000# mama's now. I think its possible to get too small.....1100 to 1200# is about right.
its probably not as important to worry about the size as it is how they are doing . An easy keeper is better than a poor doer at any size.

So far our Lowlines have been pretty easy keepers - not as easy as our tiny zebus (I think they'd live on just AIR!) but still don't have to grain them during the winter, just feed them good hay. This past winter we tried something I read about in a magazine (I think it was Drover) where you limit the hay feeding. You let them eat free choice for a set amount of time, then turn them out of the feeding pen. With the drought we've had the past couple years (I think it's broken now - probably won't be able to bale it's so wet!) we were short on hay so thought it was worth a try. We brought the cows up at night with 2 round bales in feeders, then turned them back out in the mornings. They stayed looking good, calved nice calves, and went right out onto grass without losing condition. We don't have 'scientific' evidence but we figured we saved quite a bit of hay this way and our cows didn't suffer. I won't claim Lowlines are the only breed to use or the best, I just know what they do for us and people we know, and we are sold on them.

Our 3/4 Lowline bull eats three times what any of our Dexter or Pineywoods cows do. Still, he stays fat on mediocre hay alone. I like the breed.