It Can be Done ( and cheaply)
 

Fodder feeding cattle in Canada.

That is a neat Idea. I wonder how much it costs for the inputs to get started

Well, you could build the frame of the greenhouse and growing racks yourself. His looks homemade. I'd say the biggest costs will be lumber and the greenhouse plastic. It's doable.

I have always had an interest in this. Way back in the eighties a company in Ohio that sells hydroponic vegetable growing supplies .... everything including greenhouses.

However .... very expensive. There is lots of DIY hydroponics out there hobby to commercial scale. A friend of mine has hydroponic strawberries and sells from a little store ... he is a vegetable grower. His system is entirely DIY.

Judy ..... if you need a dependable source of feed start out with conventional hydroponics ..... and then maybe down the road consider adding the fish culture to it if you still want to do that.

I gave you this advice before. I have a degree in horticulture with kind of a minor in agronomy .... which sometimes gives me an edge when it comes to investigating things like this.

.... but you can do hydroponics on a shoestring budget .... you will need a pump timer and some nutrient testing equipment. You could make troughs out of anything and line with a good grade of plastic with UV inhibitor etc.

I am growing candy onions hydroponically with DIY set up ..... needs to be ready April fools day.

I'm thinking some Zoo s use these systems......

Edit: Oops I did not closely read your OP. The system I am thinking of grows out the sprouts so you have at least several inches of green shoots to feed..... and you also feed the roots.

How was the heat from the cows heating the greenhouse? Very cool, I think I know what I'm going to raise these jersey calves out on.

OK.......... sorry about this but I jumped the gun and posted without watching the video..... which I have now watched. Yes this is exactly the method I referred to in my first post. They have added cows to provide some free heat which is interesting.

Very interesting, I would do it if I didn`t have so dog gone many cattle. > Marc

The danger here is that you might spoil your cows so that they will never want to eat another dry old hay bale:spinsmiley:

OK ..... some comments

There are various types of hydroponic systems. The system in the OP video is a system called aeroponics which sprays the nutrient solution onto the plants. Another system is called nutrient flow technique (NFT) ..... In this system nutrient solution is pumped into a narrow long trough which has one end raised slightly higher than the other so the solution flows down the trough. The grain to be sprouted is spread out over the bottom of the trough. You can have the troughs stacked like shelves and pump the nutrient up into the top trough..... it flows down to the end and is transferred to the trough below it. The nutrient solution flows down that trough and then drops down into the next trough.

One advantage of this system is that it keeps the grass blades dry .... being constantly wet for the 7 day growing cycle could cause some diseases.

Here is Crop Kings system. Each shelf has (4) 11 inch wide troughs 13 feet long. there are six shelves. The unit measures 44 inches wide by 14 feet long and is about 64 inches high.

You need a pump and timer and a holding tank to store the nutrient.

You harvest one shelf per day which is a mat of forage 44 inches wide by 13 feet long. The mat can weigh up to 210 lbs in ideal conditions.

Price is a mere $2,850

I think you could easily make a nice one for $850 and after completed still have enough to buy Kobi steaks for two.

You might even make one for less using salvage.

http://www.cropking.com/fodder

OK .... oops the system uses only PLAIN WATER .... so no dissolved fertilizer to feed .... just sprout and grow

Here is a good video showing the 7 day growing cycle. This man is growing indoors with lights instead of in a greenhouse .... but he demonstrates how to grow

Johnny,

What is your take on the wading around in water? I dug a little farther. He's published his own book, "Leverage Garden."

He says he keeps 11 1000 lb calves that heat a 2700 square foot greenhouse.

I have some issues with the OP video ..... some issues with what was said. Also I have had newspaper people and local TV to report on my farming ...... you tell them exactly what you are doing .... they take notes ..... and then when they report to the public they screw it all up.

I will think on this and get back with you here

It should be a sin to spoil cows like this :grump:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=tCAo4EhdXuc

Ok, I just got off the phone with Marcel. I'm going to order his book. If anyone would like his contact info, pm me.

Confusion !!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Well I have observed the OP video with Marcel and have watched about 6 other similar youtube videos.

Marcel is using mineral nutrients in his sprayed on water. The others are using plain water. Marcel is advertising an organic veal product .... so fertilizer in the water must be organic ???? The color of his fodder is generally greener than on other videos and his height is 6 inches on top of a root mass which might be an inch thick..... so he probably is getting more growth. He states protein doubles from what the grain was. He states that 70# of Barley grain produces 500# fodder in 7 days and if left grow two more days would produce about 600# but protein goes down after day 7.

One must consider that the Barley grain is dry and the fodder is green and full of moisture. To know if there is any gain in carbohydrate due to photosynthesis the fodder would need to be dried and weighed and compared to the dry weight of the Barley.

I would also like to know if there is any change in TDN (total digestible nutrients) between the grain and the fodder.

----------------------------------

Methane

There is two types of decomposition, anerobic and aerobic. The first one happens when there is no oxygen and the second when there is oxygen. Anerobic produces methane gas which is the same as natural gas. The cow rumen is somewhat like an anerobic digester. A compost heap is an aerobic digester and produces CO2 gas. The exhale of a cow produces CO2 from the lungs (CO2 is also the product of respiration... along with H20) and methane from the rumen.

The OP video stated methane gas helps plants grow. If there is a slight natural gas leak in a gas heated greenhouse the methane will harm the plants. Methane leaking from a landfill will stunt the growth of plants growing on the landfill. Sooooooo there is a problem here. However cows also are producing CO2 and elevated levels above what is normal produces more rapid growth in plants in a greenhouse without ventilation. In winter when ventilation is off, some greenhouses use CO2 generators to artificially raise the CO2 levels.

Sooooo ..... seems like cows are producing beneficial heat and two gases one of which is beneficial and the other potentially harmful. The cows will also produce water vapor and so the air will probably need to be vented for a period of time during the day when fresh air is warmer. So maybe methane build-up is not an issue especially if you ventilate .... but if you ventilate you blow out your elevated CO2 levels

I will continue to investigate this. Judy will be reading the book.

Shortly I will post with ideas for doing this small scale on shoestring budget....... Stay tuned !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wonder about the wading thru the water too. Look forward to reading more about this.

Is hydroponic fodder feeding a scam ????
 

Well ...... its not looking like fodder feeding is such a great idea. Controlled scientific experiment on feedlot calves suggests no advantage.

Calves fed barley grain compared to calves fed the same amount of barley grain in fodder form shows no advantage.

Also fodder in NO way substitutes for roughage .... you still must feed hay

jast.journals.modares.ac.ir/jufile?c2hvd1BERj00MDg= (copy and paste into browser for scientific study)

:grump::grump::grump:

I am surely glad I did not buy that Crop King outfit for $2,850 :rock:

I knew of this system 30 years ago and always wondered why it never caught on if it was such a great idea.

:flame::flame::flame:

Marcel is feeding veal ........... maybe this method could have an advantage as far as quality of meat ???????????

I read that growing fodder doubles the weight of the grain on a dry-matter bases. That is, 5 pounds of dry barley, soaked and sprouted for 7 days, then dried again produces 10 pounds of feed. Additionally, the feed produced is 90% digestible as opposed to the 30% digestibility of the dry barley grain. Where did you find the study that showed no advantage?

Additionally, everything I've read does NOT claim that sprouted barley replaces hay in animals that use hay (ruminants, horses). It replaces the grain ration, and it reduces the level of quality needed in hay. So when using barley fodder you can feed a hay of lower quality and no grain at all. When feeding monogastrics such as chickens or hogs, no hay is necessary. This is just what I've read, no personal experience here.

The link I refer to in post # 17 Does acknowledge that this was only one experiment and that other feeding scenarios could yield different results. Their fodder increases in weight by 4.5%. The fodder in the OP by 7% and others on youtube report 6% and there are many factors influencing that.

The scientific study noted that the weight of the dried fodder was less than the dry barley .... which is troubling ..... but their barley fodder only gained weight by 4.5%.


Sooooooooooooo there is a need to look for other scientific studies.

One Australian manufacturer has a FAQ on their site and they said fodder is not a substitute for roughage ...... but when feeding fodder a lower quality roughage can be substituted

http://www.fodderfactory.com.au/faq

Copy and paste into your browser
jast.journals.modares.ac.ir/jufile?c2hvd1BERj00MDg=

.... read my last post (you and I were posting here at the same time)

......... I will look for some other studies .... and post them here also

If there is an increase in digestibility from 30 to 90 % .....it is not mentioned in the research article .... I have been looking for reports of changes in TDN

I question that a milled barley would only be 30% digestible in a ruminant animal

...... but I am no expert here .... But I realize we need to distinguish between ruminant and non rumin animals when we discuss digestatibility.

Many fodder users on youtube report a big savings when they started using fodder.

Yes ..... this makes sense

My background is in plant sciences and not livestock. I have been examining many DIY and commercial fodder producing equipment on the internet. Some production is done indoors with a minimal amount of lighting. Some greenhouse production is done on shelves placed close together greatly restricting sunlight. Others like in the OP look like they are allowing more light to reach the plants. Also the top shelf and possibly the higher shelves in these greenhouse units should intercept more light and thus will permit a higher rate of photosynthesis..... which would produce a greater increase in dry matter.

So there are many variables including the quality of the barley grain.

Here is a report from Iowa State University. Easy to read

http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewco...ontext=ans_air

If I read it right, it would appear that a pound of this barley fodder (when dryed) costs about 40 cents to produce and a pound of alfalfa of nearly the same nutritional value cost about a dime. If this is the case it appears that there is no such thing as a free lunch.... not even for cows.

Duplicate.

When I spoke to him on the phone, Marcel told me that the fodder doesn't completely replace hay. He told me I'd still have to feed 15% of their ration in hay. So, fodder stretches your hay in a drought or in winter.

Over on the Family Cow forum, there are a lot of people feeding fodder. The big problem seems to be finding barley after the drought. The only thing this guy is doing differently is using his cattle as a heat source.

I've been in some old-style milking parlors where the cows stayed in during the winter. Those were nice toasty places.

I don't have a problem with the floor water as long as my muck boots are not leaking:D

If you go barefoot in the summer that floor water would be cool:D

As for practical purposes there are some issues with growing fodder in a "barn" and the wet floor would keep the dust down .... there would be mold spores in the dust and there is mold spores in the hay .... the amount of spores depends on harvesting conditions etc ..... but feeding hay where you are producing fodder should be af a concern in preventing mold.

... Marcel published a book .... but in his video he has yet to sell any veal from this "experiment" ??????????
However he says he has been experimenting with fodder for 9 years so this must be his first "veal" experiment ???

1000 lb calves ????? .... those are some big calves !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree that those are some big calves! I've got 6 dairy heifers that could be heating a greenhouse this winter, though. Marcel said they could
easily heat a 500 square foot greenhouse, which is what I'm building.

There are a lot of people growing fodder, but it seems to be water wasteful. I'm wondering if an aquaponic system would work better.

Here's a REALLY interesting and detailed article: http://www.qcl.farmonline.com.au/fil...onicfodder.pdf .

For Sale
 

New still in the box Crop King fodder sprouting equipment for sale. Paid $2,850 will sacrifice for $2,350. My loss is your gain. I was going to save some money on feed but decided to sell the farm instead :gaptooth:

I'm going to wait until I've read this book before I buy anything else.

I already have the greenhouse panels, a pump, tank, heifers, and lumber.

I know I'll have to buy a timer. I'm thinking hoses and T-jet spray nozzles too, but we'll wait and see.

As a simple farmer, who has grown barley for 20 years, and grown thousands of acres of it, I can tell you that once sprouted, then dried to a safe storage moisture content, the barley will lose weight quite dramatically. I know this from several wet harvests. Barley is very susceptible to sprouting in the field in a wet spell, and I have had barely sprout in the heads as it stood in the fields under some conditions, and grow two inch roots. The barley loses weight in a fairly dramatic fashion.


Now, for the feed to actually multiply in weight, more than simple water is needed, something must be added for the seed to sprout, and hence grow in weight. Fertilizer of some kind must be added. I think for the weight to increase in 7 days, in the dramatic fashion some have said, they are either fertilizing it heavily, which defeats the purpose, forgetting conveniently to use dry equivalent weights, or simply making stuff up. Once the seed sprouts, the roots and shoots draw from the seed weight very rapidly. And the top growth of a young barley plant is almost completely water. If minerals (fertilizer) is added, I can see a small increase in weight, but not very much after only 7 days. In 7 days after germination, barley would only have a maximum of two small leaves, and if you cut these off and dry them down, they literally disappear, as they are so high in moisture at that stage..

Though an interesting idea, It would be prohibitive cost wise for an average farmer to set up a system to feed a realistic herd size. You still have to buy the dang barley, and I can tell you it does not magically increase in weight in just 7 days..

It is impossible to increase weight by sprouting seeds for a few days...The weight actually would drop.

And the other thing: Because of the lowered dry matter weights, gains in protein etc., are only increased on a dry matter basis, because, voila, there is LESS dry matter in barley after sprouting occurs. There is not any net gain in feed value, except on paper. These dubious claims are actually fairly unfortunate, because once again, people are taking advantage of others. Frankly, that ticks me off...

The video finally worked for me. Marcel is not being very honest with you, Judy. I would save my money and not buy his book. He said in that video that he seeds 70 lbs of barley and harvests 500 lbs of fodder. How much of that wet feed is water? Sprouting seeds lose weight in a dry matter equivalent manner. sorry to tell you, but on a dry matter basis, he is omitting some serious facts. It also mentions the seed is sprayed with nitrogen, etc. I wonder what his source of nutrients is, that are easily water soluble. Something with the guy does not ad up.

A guy it seems, will do anything to sell a book.

This was actually backed up in study after study after study cited in the paper I linked to above. Based on that seriously in-depth paper, I think I'm all done considering barley fodder at this point. Thank you, FarmerDale for confirming the information from the standpoint of a barley producer!

For storage of longer than nine months, a moisture content of no more than 12.5% is recommended for barley, leaving 87.5% dry matter. 87.5% of 70 pounds is 61.25 pounds, so Marcel is using barley seed at the rate of 61.25 pounds dry matter to produce 500 pounds of fodder. Time and again in the paper I cited, a dry matter percentage of 12% was used for barley fodder. That is, of the barley fodder fed, 88% of the weight was water and 12% was dry matter. Guess what 12% of 500 pounds is? 60 pounds. The missing 1.25 pounds of dry matter backs up what the studies and FarmerDale have said, namely, that there is a loss of dry matter once the grain is sprouted. Isn't that interesting?

Yes this is a deception..... and interesting that so many producers of fodder equipment make such exaggerated claims.

Thanks Laura for that summary which was well supported with references.

Marcel claims a 50% increase in protein ? He claimed carbon gasses from the cows increased growth of barley. Laura's link states that chloroplasts form on the 5th day. Increased CO2 levels will make photosynthesis more efficient but photosynthesis will not occur until these chloroplasts are formed in cells within the new barley growth. So you only have day 6 for photosynthesis to occur and at that point you have carbon (dry weight) losses to make up for before you could actually increase the dry matter.

(chloroplasts are sites in plants where photosynthesis occurs )

The methane is not going to help growth either but evidently not building up to levels dangerous to plants... I see Marcel had some potted plants in the barn also which would serve as indicator plants for methane since barley leafs-out about the second day and fed by the 7th.... so that short time span might not be long enough to show visual symptoms of methane toxicity.

So about only advantage is vitamin increase .... but the ruminant gut makes vitamins also.....

One study did show better condition of the coat compared to control cattle. Would a better coat be a sign of a healthier animal in any way ?????

One other thing .......... the dramatic growth of the barley sprout is fueled by carbohydrate stored by the grain. That surplus is gone by day eight and laura's link states that at that point growth rate will slow being similar to growth of the grain in the field. So............ there really is no chance that you could have a dramatic gain in dry matter even if you kept growing for additional days beyond 7.