Bull to cow ratio???

I don't care as much about a tight calving season as I do about getting a calf out of every cow every year. Here in Jersey calving season is kind of important because of the snow and what not. As long as its not crazy cold and as long as their is forage to eat, I don't care when the calves drop.

I'm familiar with all of the general signs of a good bull. I would never put a bad bull out...maybe an old broken bull if I thought I could squeeze another calf or two out of him before sending him off to balogna town.

So you're talking about running 60 cows and their calves on 30 acres year 'round. I think that's optimistic. I suggest starting less aggressively and being more flexible in your planning. Subdividing everything into fixed size paddocks sounds nice, but even with irrigation I think things will change enough throughout the year to warrant changing the paddock sizes to match.

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greatwhiteape, I think (hope) you're trying to pull an April Fool's joke on us 3 months early.

You can't seriously suggest putting 60 cows on 1/4 acre of space (dirt) calving year-round in Georgia. IMO, this borders on inhumane!

G. Seddon,

This has gone right over your head.

1/4 acre PER DAY.

There would be 120 1/4 acre size paddocks. They would be moved to a new paddock every day for 120 days. The first paddock gets 120 days to recover from grazing.

I hope that everyone reads this, or learns what MOB grazing is, before blasting me for being inhumane.

This heading reminded me of a joke - A rancher was giving a "ranch tour" to some city folks. He told them there was one bull for every 20 cows. One lady raised her hand and asked, "How does he know which ones are his?"

Their forage will become (inedible/trampled) contaminated with urine, feces, and mud by noon-time. Yes I know what mob grazing is, and in my opinion 1/4 lot ain't going to cut it....Topside

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TOPSIDE FARMS

Okay, you can breathe a sigh of relief as I think this will be my final post on this thread.

You are talking about 60+ animals on 1/4 acre calving year-round in Georgia, moving them daily. Never mind that this many animals can barely turn around in that amount of space, much less eat. You've never even mentioned water or shade. In addition to the phenomenal amount of manure and flies, consider the fact that between April and October the temps will average from 77-93. Cattle begin to feel the effects of heat stress at about 80 degrees, and that doesn't include the stress of calving, but I doubt you'll have much of a calf crop in these conditions, given the fertility difficulties associated with heat stress. Let's not forget that Georgia is in the midst of a major drought.

What you are proposing does not comply with any decent standards of care for cattle; it is unhealthy and, yes, inhumane IMO.

greatwhiteape is not as far off as you may think! He has acknowledged the lack of experience with rotational grazing and that his family produce cattle conventionally. In post 12 above that paddock has 348 sq ft of area per mature animal whereas with 60 head of mature animals greatwhiteape"s area would only have to be increased to .47 acre to provide adequate forage. The grass in post 12 is drought impacted otherwise under ideal conditions I could feed the herd on a smaller allotment. Cattle are watered ideally with waterers located no more than 800 distance from where they are grazing with the waters accessed by a lane. The lane is also functioning as a paddock to be grazed but will suffer from traffic during times of use. As for flies, once the paddocks are grazed I drag the areas to distribute the manure. In turn, the sun dries the particles and the manure becomes unsuitable for fly reproduction. The expense of dragging the paddocks is significantly offset by the manure value helping reduce/eliminate the need to purchase commercial fertilizer.
IMO greatwhiteape is just new to the concept and is on the way to profitability. Without being me it would be hard to understand how many times I have been told "that won't work", "it won't work here" or "you are going to lose you axx"
Why cannot we tell greatwhiteape he will need to refine his plans somewhat and adapt what he wants to accomplish to his Georgia operation?

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If they can do it,
you know you can!

It hasn't gone over my head. You are talking about putting 120 large animals onto 1/4 acre.

I've got a fenced 1/2 acre orchard and visualizing 120 head of cattle on that and they wouldn't have room to turn around, let alone graze. Grass would be covered in feces and urine and trampled in the first hour. And that is twice the area you think you can put 120 cattle into.

Feedlots don't crowd their cattle that badly and feedlots are feeding in bunkers so the cattle aren't standing on and crapping on their food.

Not enough space for that number of cow calf units!

I'm not sure that 120 day rest period is necessary unless you are in a drought. If I were able to go 90 days or even 60 days i would be tickled. This past year most of my rest periods were 30 to 40 days. One thing is for sure, you will learn by doing.

Here is an interesting article or two about brix readings.....
http://www.articlesbase.com/environm...e-1116237.html

http://www.articlesbase.com/environm...s-1092538.html

greatwhiteape, please don't be discouraged in the principle of what you're trying to do. I just think your numbers are a little off (at that density I think you'll have to move at least twice a day) and encourage you to take it slow, because it a cattle wreck is very expensive.

You say it's irrigated, is there any shade?

ycanchu2, 30-40 days? Here in middle TN I couldn't get away with that except in the spring blaze of growth.

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i wasn't mob grazing. I was giving them 2 to 3 acres (40) cows, every day or two days, so they were just getting the tops off the the grass mostly. my grass is not that good...i'm recovering from years of continuous grazing, my cattle like short grass as do everyone's I guess, so they would go to the spots, their favorite spots they had picked short for years and essentially leave the bigger spots of fescue and orchard grass, I didn't force them to eat everything, which really allowed the devolopment of the fescue and orchard grass spots which is allowing me more winter grazing now.hopefully, the overgrazed 'spots" will become smaller and smaller allowing smaller paddock sizes, which in turn will give longer rotation ability. keep in mind we have had pretty good rainfall here since mid July.

I'm just trying to find a way to stay in this "hobby". I can't afford to stay in this game the way that I am doing it now.

I didn't give you guys a full outline of the plan, but water, shade, fly management, and all that have been taken into consideration. If my paddock sizes need to be adjusted that is all part of the game. That part I can figure out with my eyeballs in a day or three.

I was just trying to figure out how many cows I could run with a bull. That would take me an entire year to figure out, so I was hoping to get a little advice from someone that may have been there and done that already.

Guys, this is how serious I am about this. I am attaching a picture of my current bull. This bloodline has been in my family for three generations. I have the LAST bull, unless one we want to keep pops up in the spring. He's every ounce of 2600 pounds and hunts cows in estrus down like the terminator. When I make the move south, he ain't coming with me. None of these big frame, corn guzzling herefords are coming with me. I'm like a Chevy guy willing to buy a Ford.

And yes, that is them eating hay in the grazed down, hoof trodden, paddock. This picture shows you EXACTLY why I need to change things up.

Having been a teenager at one point in my life I can tell you from personal experience that there is a limit to the ability of one male animal to service a number of female animals irrespective of their proximity... Or to put it another way there is a recharge time required between shots that cannot be overcome by proximity or even desire. I would get your lone bull a friend to help with his duties as the friend can both encourage and fill in where needed.

Some bull are better than others

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Simmons

Read the controversy section

Ape,
Keep us posted - I am thinking along the same lines and am a few years behind you.

True. But do you want to bet your farm on a single bull? And I am a little disappointed in his numbers. With equivalent access I would have hit that number in less time... grin.

I had planned on trying to run four separate herds, with four separate blood lines, to try to improve the cattle genetically as I go. So, technically I would have three back up bulls should one bull go down. Granted, that group of cows would be calving later than the rest, but its still a viable option. In an absolute worst case scenario I could AI them.

I know that the experts advise against running more than one herd, even if it means running multiple bulls with your herd, due to efficiency. I heard Greg Judy talking about some guy in Africa who turns out 4,000 cows with 400 bulls and just lets them go to town on each other.

I would like to continue breeding and selling registered breeding stock as well, so the idea of running multiple bulls with the same herd of cows doesn't work for me. I need to know who the daddy is. Greg Judy's boy said that the strongest bulls get to breed. I don't think my customers would want to see that on the registry, "Sire: ???" lol. It would be like an episode of Maury, "you are not the father".

You might not be too far off with a 60-1 ratio if you are willing to accept a longer calving season. And it wouldn't have to be all year round either. 75 days would be opportunity for most cows to cycle 3 times. 90 days would be that much better.
I've heard of using 50 to 1, but I don't know the details of that management plan.
Have your bull fertility tested before you start and when you want to pull him, you could either test him again to see how potent he still is, or wait a couple of months, preg check your cows and turn him back out on the opens, creating two calving seasons. Let us know how it turns out.