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-   -   Cow vs. goat and why can't I just have my way!? (http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/cattle/468264-cow-vs-goat-why-cant-i-just-have-my-way.html)

holliehmstd 12/16/12 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusky Beauty (Post 6325947)
Ya know hollie, just start cruising craigslist once a week and start tracking what comes up for sale. For months and months here we never saw a dairy suitable cow of any kind listed and then once tax return season hit there was a dozen to choose from. Later in the year you couldnt find a hand milkable cow or heifer if life depended on it but when the drought made people panic over feed costs in the fall there were a bunch of jerseys listed and even a few dexters (not as many dex in the SW as there are in the east and midwest.) The jerseys were expensive as all get out.... but they were there.

Yes, I am stalking craigslist! I know that the search is half the battle. But I am praying that when the time and cow are right, things will work out.

francismilker 12/16/12 09:38 PM

Here's my two cents...........although you might not be asking for it. I have been around and milked dairy cows my whole life. Whether it be a home milk cow or working on a commercial dairy. I LIKE COWS! PERIOD!

However, I have milk goats and love them also. If I was faced with the decision of "which one to get" I would choose goats handsdown everytime and here's my reasoning: Goats give more milk per capita of body weight than a cow does and eats tons less feed and hay. You can have three goats and have their lactations staggered so that you're never out of milk. They require less ground, they are a whole lot less damaging to the sod because they weigh less, they drop slow release fertilizer that doesn't need flattened out like cow piles, they like to browse and if managed correctly will eliminate the need to spray for weeds, they have more than one offspring most of the time and the kids are pretty tasty meat for the table, they are quicker to milk and I have had far less teat and udder problems out of goats, they don't require a barn's worth of hay to get them through the winter, and finally they are just plain hardier imho.

The only major con I can think of at this time is that goats ARE harder to fence. For me it's not a problem because of my location. I just have to fence them out of the garden and fruit trees. I don't have to worry about keeping them off of the highway.

I still like cows and will probably always have one around, I just think goats are more viable.

CaliannG 12/17/12 02:19 AM

Like Francismilker, I am a goat person. However, I will give you the same advice I give people who ask "What breed of goat should I get?" :

Get what you want to hang out with twice a day, every day, and what you are going to enjoy looking at in your pasture.

Yes, goats are more economical. Yes, you can make more butter per gallon of goat milk than cow milk (with a cream separator, but the cost REALLY evens out with stuff). Yes, over-all, goats are more efficient, and tend to be hardier. Yes, you can stock more goats on your acre.

But none of that matters if you love cows and don't enjoy goats.

Get whatever you will love. THAT is the most important thing.

holliehmstd 12/17/12 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francismilker (Post 6326703)
Here's my two cents...........although you might not be asking for it. I have been around and milked dairy cows my whole life. Whether it be a home milk cow or working on a commercial dairy. I LIKE COWS! PERIOD!

The only major con I can think of at this time is that goats ARE harder to fence. For me it's not a problem because of my location. I just have to fence them out of the garden and fruit trees. I don't have to worry about keeping them off of the highway.

I still like cows and will probably always have one around, I just think goats are more viable.

I appreciate your honest opinion. Here is the thing. I like goats, I like cows. I have owned neither. If I can make us dairy independant on either, I would probably one day own both. I guess part of what I am looking for is which is more practical.

We are a one-income family and we have lot's of things pulling on those resources. The reality is....ugh, can't believe I am admitting this, I am in love with the idea of having a cow. When I think of owning a cow, I think of warm memories and - don't you laugh! - all my dreams when I was knee high and read Little House in the Big Woods. I think of all the yummy good things and I may be looking through some rose-colored glasses. When I think of goats, I love them, but I do not really equate them with total dairy independance and I worry about the fencing issues. That said, as you brought out, the poop is easier to manage, I can breed rotationally, housing is smaller and feed costs could be lower.

You would think this would be cut-and-dry! It is just going to be a big deal for us financially, either way, a real investment and I am SO glad that I came here to get advice. I may still feel a little lost but I have more infomation and ideas then I did before. I am just a worry-wart, as previously stated and that can stunt me! :(

holliehmstd 12/17/12 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG (Post 6326958)
Like Francismilker, I am a goat person. However, I will give you the same advice I give people who ask "What breed of goat should I get?" :

Get what you want to hang out with twice a day, every day, and what you are going to enjoy looking at in your pasture.

Yes, goats are more economical. Yes, you can make more butter per gallon of goat milk than cow milk (with a cream separator, but the cost REALLY evens out with stuff). Yes, over-all, goats are more efficient, and tend to be hardier. Yes, you can stock more goats on your acre.

But none of that matters if you love cows and don't enjoy goats.

Get whatever you will love. THAT is the most important thing.

I am very happy to talk to goat people! I love goat people and I want everyone's take so I can make a well thought out decision. So you said that you can make MORE butter with goats' milk than cows'? That is something new to me. I have never thought of purchasing a cream separator but I could look into that.

What would you say your overall costs are related to goats? I would be thinking of having 3 does and raising a buckling or two for meat if I did goats.

holliehmstd 12/17/12 10:51 AM

Is it more practical to start with goats or a cow? If you are starting out, which is better for a total newbie? That is the question that I think I am really asking and it seems that it is all subjective. Ha! I am surprised you all are not tired of me yet. I will just have to go with my gut it seems. And the gut says.....:smack

opportunity 12/17/12 11:53 AM

I would be worried you said one acre and 1.5 tons of hay even my jerseys go through 5-6 tons of feed in a year and the angus can eat even more. I plan on at least 2 well irrigated acres per head in the summer and 25-35 pounds of hay perday per head when the grass in not growing. I have jersey, highland, herford and angus in my herd as well as cross breed. The highland/jersey seems to graze very well and gives good milk to the calfs though I only hand milk someone when I feel like it or run out of store bough milk.
I hate goats so I keep cows but you do need a lot of space per cow and they really do need a friend to be happy, I will not sell a cow to a person who does not already have at least one they are herd animals and can really be a pain to keep in alone. We lease a lot of land to run the cows I plan on having 2-3 acres winter pasture per animal and 2 tons of hay. I the summer here I need 5-10 acres of dry land per animal or 1-2 acres of well managed irrigated land, less land would mean more hay and hay is not cheap.

Sparkie 12/17/12 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holliehmstd (Post 6327450)
Is it more practical to start with goats or a cow? If you are starting out, which is better for a total newbie? That is the question that I think I am really asking and it seems that it is all subjective. Ha! I am surprised you all are not tired of me yet. I will just have to go with my gut it seems. And the gut says.....:smack

You remind me of me when I was new to homesteading :)

I think if you are in love with the idea of a cow then you will be happier starting out with a cow. I think your friends are projecting their fears of handling a larger animal than a goat onto you. You need to do what you want to do, don't let others fears hold you back.

I lived on a farm for part of my growing up years so was familiar with cows. When we first moved here I got a sweet Jersey cow. She has since passed on but I'll always have fond memories of my Millie. She loved calves and happily took every calf we brought her. She made more milk than 3 people could drink so we tried to keep an extra calf on her for a few years. Later on when we stopped buying calves for her we just cut down to once a day milking so we weren't drowning in milk. Even then we cut her feed way back to cut her milk production back more. I think that too much milk will be less of a problem for you with six people in the family though.

We have milked Jerseys and Dexters but for various reasons don't use much dairy anymore. We still have a fairly large beef herd but no milkers. We do have a couple of Nubian goats that we milk sometimes, they have milk pretty similar to Jersey milk. Rich and creamy, yum.

I learned pretty quick that you don't have to feed a cow up to get every possible drop of milk out of her. Adjust it to your needs. Also the cow will hold up longer and be healthier if not treated like a commercial dairy cow.

As sort of stated above we always left the calf on the cow and share milked. For us that worked best as we weren't tied to milking if we needed to take a break for whatever reason. We just left the calf with the cow full time and that was that. When we milked we would lock the calf up at night and milk in the morning, letting the calf out after. It gives a lot more flexibility doing it that way. We do that with the goats too.

In case you don't know this, you should never consider keeping a Jersey bull. They are dangerous. We've had a lot of cows, including Dexter and Angus bulls, and have plenty of experience, but I wouldn't even entertain the thought of keeping a Jersey bull. They are just unpredictable and dangerous. My husband tells stories from when he was a kid of the stuff their Jersey bulls did and it's a wonder he wasn't killed.

Also, to avoid heartbreak and avoid contaminating your land, do some research on Johne's disease. Any cow you bring home should be tested for it before it comes on to your property. You really should avoid buying a cow from a dairy if at all possible, there's a much higher chance of getting a cow with Johne's from a dairy. Even if they test and cull for Johne's, if they have had one positive cow, by the time they culled the others were exposed and it can incubate for a long time (years.) I don't want to go into it in depth but it's not treatable and contaminates your land for a long time so you can't bring other cows in. There are also possible connections to Johne's in cows and Chron's disease in people. Just educate yourself. You'll also want to test the cow for bangs (brucellosis) and tb before drinking the milk.

This is getting long and drawn out but I will add something about fencing. Dairy cows are easy to fence. We've fenced them in with one strand of electric. Two strands is better so they don't get upset when the calf runs in and out. Goats aren't easy to fence. They aren't quite the horror stories you hear about sometimes on here in general, but sometimes you get one who is just about impossible to keep in. We have one like that now. She's a huge cow of a goat and you wouldn't believe the little spaces she can get through. When all else fails she just climbs! Huge udder and all.... sigh. I think she's going to have to go to the sale after she raises this year's kids, she's just too destructive. Her goal in life seems to be to destroy my orchard :(

Anyway, welcome and have fun with your cow adventures! And please share them here :)

holliehmstd 12/17/12 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by opportunity (Post 6327605)
I hate goats so I keep cows but you do need a lot of space per cow and they really do need a friend to be happy, I will not sell a cow to a person who does not already have at least one they are herd animals and can really be a pain to keep in alone. We lease a lot of land to run the cows I plan on having 2-3 acres winter pasture per animal and 2 tons of hay. I the summer here I need 5-10 acres of dry land per animal or 1-2 acres of well managed irrigated land, less land would mean more hay and hay is not cheap.

I understand the hay figures I am working off of may be skewed. I acknowledge my own ignorance! Still, when you read Keeping a Family Cow Ms. Grohman talks about having kept a cow in a garage and a residential backyard. And when I was growing up, anyone we knew with a "family cow" only had one. I am not saying these circumstances are IDEAL (or in the case of the garage/backyard, practical), just that I was under the impression that I would be able to make due with a cow and her calf for company and that the one acre would hold until we could open it up some more.

I have also looked in The Self-Sufficient Life - that is where I figured my hay #s from. See, books can't do it all. I feel so lost now.....

Sparkie 12/17/12 01:17 PM

Your one cow will be fine. They are happier with company but when the calf comes that solves the problem.

About the one acre, you probably will need to have a smaller area where you can pen her up when needed so that she doesn't completely tear the ground up. In the late spring early summer one acre is probably enough for a Jersey and calf in Va, but in the other parts of the year you're going to have to feed some hay and keep an eye on the condition of the pasture till you can expand.

holliehmstd 12/17/12 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparkie (Post 6327691)
You remind me of me when I was new to homesteading :)

Anyway, welcome and have fun with your cow adventures! And please share them here :)

Sparkie, thanks so much! I am glad to know I do not sound as crazy to others as I sound to myself! I am sure my dh is really tired of me going back and forth on this. Bleh.

I will say this, if based only on the products I could make at home instead of having to purchase from the store, the cow wins.

Poop, goat wins.

Feed, I hear it can cost a lot either way depending upon varying circumstances so, draw.

Fencing, cow

You know, I feel like this planning is an experiment in crazy. Some people just see something and do it! Want a goat, get it. Build a fence when you get home. Chickens? Sure, pick up some feed on the way. Cow, why not!?

I hope one morning I will wake up to a milk bucket and curry comb!!

holliehmstd 12/17/12 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparkie (Post 6327774)
Your one cow will be fine. They are happier with company but when the calf comes that solves the problem.

About the one acre, you probably will need to have a smaller area where you can pen her up when needed so that she doesn't completely tear the ground up. In the late spring early summer one acre is probably enough for a Jersey and calf in Va, but in the other parts of the year you're going to have to feed some hay and keep an eye on the condition of the pasture till you can expand.

Okay. Sparkie, you give me hope!

momofseven 12/17/12 02:43 PM

I have had milk goats and cows and hands down I prefer the cows. All the dairy and the extra beef helps the grocery bill. Our first cow was a mid sized Jersey with three quarters. A note about mastitis...it is highly unlikely that all four quarters will develop mastitis at the same time, so you will still have some milk. I also have a herd share that helps with the extra milk that the calf doesn't take. Our AI guy only charges 40.00$ to come out and AI and once you get the hang of what you are watching for, it isn't too hard to catch them in heat.

Dusky Beauty 12/17/12 03:26 PM

Hollie, found this farm in VA for you through family cow's auction barn. Looks like a good place to visit and learn from weather you buy or not.

http://www.mistymorningfarmva.com/products/

lindamoo 12/17/12 03:32 PM

If I were in your shoes with today's economy, today's drought, and rising cost of feed, I would start out with a goat. A tested, healthy one at that. Your learning curve will be a lot less expensive and you can always move on to a cow if you choose later on down the road. Something else to consider...cows seem to have more metabolic issues than goats. If your cow dies you can be out a lot more money that if your goat dies. Just more food for thought.

holliehmstd 12/17/12 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lindamoo (Post 6328068)
If I were in your shoes with today's economy, today's drought, and rising cost of feed, I would start out with a goat. A tested, healthy one at that. Your learning curve will be a lot less expensive and you can always move on to a cow if you choose later on down the road. Something else to consider...cows seem to have more metabolic issues than goats. If your cow dies you can be out a lot more money that if your goat dies. Just more food for thought.

Here are the #'s that I am looking at for goats based on Fiasco Farm info:

2-3 lbs/day for each doe in milk
hay, minerals, black oil sunflower seeds

I would buy from Countryside Naturals/Organics - feed is $27/50lbs, black oil sunflower seeds are $26.50/25lb bag, minerals w/kelp are $32/50lbs. So for 3 does in milk - what I am assuming we would need estimating 1 gal/day/goat to take care of milk and cheeses - 5 bags of feed would run us $135/month, hay (2lbs/day/goat) - 5 square bales (est. 45lbs ea. @ $3) $15/month. I guess the sunflower seeds will last 1 mo and the minerals for months. So I totalled it out at an estimate of $180/month.

For a cow, this is what I have come up with:

I want to feed mostly hay, not grain. So figuring 1/2-1 bale/day, anywhere around $45-$90/month depending upon weather, feeding requirements. Along with that kelp minerals - $30.50 lasting 6 mos., salt $17, soaking beets/alfalfa cube - not sure which avg $30 and then all the extra kale, carrots, other veggies etc from the garden that a cow can eat. I totalled this out at anywhere from $80 -$150/month.

Again, my numbers may not be accurate. But either way, when I contrast total product obtained from 1 cow vs. 3 goats and time caring for 3 animals vs. 1, I think the cow wins. I know the numbers will be larger with a cow and a calf but that is not a real issue as we are mostly hoping to do milk-fed beef with hay and butcher at 8-10mos.

oh, and fencing cost...let's not even go there. Even thought that is a one time expense.

please let me know if I am way off...

holliehmstd 12/17/12 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusky Beauty (Post 6328053)
Hollie, found this farm in VA for you through family cow's auction barn. Looks like a good place to visit and learn from weather you buy or not.

http://www.mistymorningfarmva.com/products/

Thank you! They look really nice.

holliehmstd 12/17/12 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momofseven (Post 6327975)
I have had milk goats and cows and hands down I prefer the cows. All the dairy and the extra beef helps the grocery bill. Our first cow was a mid sized Jersey with three quarters. A note about mastitis...it is highly unlikely that all four quarters will develop mastitis at the same time, so you will still have some milk. I also have a herd share that helps with the extra milk that the calf doesn't take. Our AI guy only charges 40.00$ to come out and AI and once you get the hang of what you are watching for, it isn't too hard to catch them in heat.

Thank you for this. I am concerned about AI b/c it is more $$ to spend but hoping that will work out well. I would do a family style milk share because it is crazy here in VA - for me at least - and just barter staples for the milk, oats, rice, sugar, that kind of thing. Still works out in the end I think. I have personally never has mastitis - hope I never do! I am sure that is painful for human or beast. It concerns me, that and Johnnes but I guess you have to be careful regardless.

momofseven 12/17/12 08:40 PM

Hollie...where in VA are you? I'm in Cumberland Co. and you would be welcome to come out and try your hand at milking a cow...and for a chat. My AI guy is based out of Amelia and he comes out here to do my cows.

holliehmstd 12/17/12 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momofseven (Post 6328643)
Hollie...where in VA are you? I'm in Cumberland Co. and you would be welcome to come out and try your hand at milking a cow...and for a chat. My AI guy is based out of Amelia and he comes out here to do my cows.

oooo! I am in King William so we are basically in a straight 1.5 hr line away from each other. I would love to come for a visit!

momofseven 12/17/12 09:16 PM

Great...let me know what works for you and we can set up a time.

BTW... I am "lynpea" over on KFC...

southerngurl 12/17/12 11:03 PM

If you want a cow, get a cow! If you find you don't like it, sell a cow! :)

I'll say I like goats the best myself. They are smaller, easier to handle and don't splash poo or try to pee in the barn. They are also physically easier to milk (softer skin and less to milk all at once). But cows are alright too.

holliehmstd 12/17/12 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southerngurl (Post 6328970)
If you want a cow, get a cow! If you find you don't like it, sell a cow! :)

I'll say I like goats the best myself. They are smaller, easier to handle and don't splash poo or try to pee in the barn. They are also physically easier to milk (softer skin and less to milk all at once). But cows are alright too.

That was very diplomatic! Like your style. The visual image of splashy poo was good too...:yuck:

CaliannG 12/17/12 11:40 PM

Holli, you are way off.:)

For one, no matter what kind of dairy animal you get, you are feeding nutrients per pound of milk produced.

A Dairy cow gets nutrient concentrates at about 1 pound of concentrates per 3 pounds of milk produced.

A Dairy goats gets nutrient concentrates at about 1 pound of concentrates per 3 pounds of milk produced.

Cows can thrive on weedy hay that a horse will not touch.

Goats can thrive on weedy hay that a horse will not touch.

If you want higher butterfat production from a cow, or to keep her in condition if she is a high producer, then you will have to add fat to her diet. The most common, readily available form of feed fat people add is BOSS.

Yeah, ditto for goats. :)

If you want to make sure that your dairy cow has plenty of calcium and is therefore not subject to developing hypocalcemia (milk fever, which can kill her), you either feed her alfalfa hay, alfalfa pellets, or top dress her feed with calcium carbonate.

Umm, yeah, ditto for milking goats. Dairy people feed alfalfa for the calcium and protein content, both of which are important for milk production.

In other words, when it comes to pure FEED, and managing feed, a good producing dairy animal is a good producing dairy animal, and there is not a whole bunch of difference in the requirements of a dairy cow, a dairy goat, a dairy sheep, a dairy horse, or a dairy yak. (Yes, they DO have dairy breeds of all of those animals!) A producing dairy animal requires higher levels of carbohydrates, proteins, fats, calcium, and trace minerals, because she is putting these things into her milk every day. Her feed needs to replace what she is putting into her milk, and replace the energy used to convert hay and grain into milk that you will use to make butter and cheese.

Now, when it comes to feed effeciency (how effectively an animal converts the food she eats into milk), goats are slightly better than cows.

When it comes to butterfat content of the milk (that's the stuff that will turn into butter), goats are slightly higher than cows. Cows average 3.2% butterfat content; goats average 4.4%. The little goats, like miniature breeds, are even higher, at 5% or higher.

However, when it comes to sheer VOLUME of milk, a good Jersey will beat out the best producing Saanen every time. That is only to be expected, since a Jersey weighs out over a thousand pounds, and the Saanen is likely topping the scales at a buck-fitty.

When it comes to LABOR, the cow is the better choice. Labor is the time you are going to take trimming hooves, giving vaccinations, worming, etc. It takes just as much time to give a C,D&T vaccination to a goat as it does to a cow. Therefore, when it comes to labor per amount of milk, the cow wins.

Now, having said all that, personal preference, attitude, ect., when it comes to homesteading play a HUGE role. I am not afraid of large animals, I have horses and I do adore my beef. :D I have goats for dairy because, for me, I prefer them. I love their impish personalities. I love their outgoing affection. I love their playfulness. Cows, to me, are terribly boring. (No offense to people who love their milk cows.) To other people, the laid-back attitude of a cow is very relaxing and meditative... to me, it makes milking more of a chore rather than fun time I get to spend with my goats.

So really, honestly, choose what appeal to YOU. What will best suit YOU. Because no one else is going to be in the milking stall with you.:)

holliehmstd 12/18/12 09:23 AM

Caliann,

Thanks for the information! I definately don't know anything yet. Reading books doesn't always directly correlate to having knowledge.

tonyb 12/19/12 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holliehmstd (Post 6329485)
Caliann,

Thanks for the information! I definately don't know anything yet. Reading books doesn't always directly correlate to having knowledge.

You can say that again. I've found this to be true many, many times.

When you're first starting your farm/homestead, every decision seems like the biggest one of your life. It is a big decision, no doubt, but its not the final decision for your homestead for all eternity. You can change course whenever you want. Jump in and get a cow; if it doesn't work for you, then jump back out.

It works the other way too. Even though you really, really want a cow, you could get a couple of goats for the first year. It doesn't mean your dream of having a cow has come to an end. Next year you could "trade them in" for a cow. This is actually a nice way to ease into owning livestock. Because of their small size, goats are much easier from a facilities standpoint (and on the pocketbook). Smaller buildings, smaller stanchion, smaller footprints, smaller transportation, smaller purchase price.

This is the route we took (goats first, cows second) and it worked out great. To answer your original question, no matter which way you decide to go, you're definitely not crazy.

Double H Ranch 12/19/12 11:23 AM

you could always get a mini dairy cow... we have both cows and goats. I started with goats to learn on an animal that wouldn't flatten me in the dirt then I bought a mini dairy cow and now I have my big girls =) ~if I was forced to make a choice I would keep my cows over my goats hands down.

holliehmstd 12/19/12 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyb (Post 6331108)
You can say that again. I've found this to be true many, many times.

When you're first starting your farm/homestead, every decision seems like the biggest one of your life. It is a big decision, no doubt, but its not the final decision for your homestead for all eternity. You can change course whenever you want. Jump in and get a cow; if it doesn't work for you, then jump back out.

It works the other way too. Even though you really, really want a cow, you could get a couple of goats for the first year. It doesn't mean your dream of having a cow has come to an end. Next year you could "trade them in" for a cow. This is actually a nice way to ease into owning livestock. Because of their small size, goats are much easier from a facilities standpoint (and on the pocketbook). Smaller buildings, smaller stanchion, smaller footprints, smaller transportation, smaller purchase price.

This is the route we took (goats first, cows second) and it worked out great. To answer your original question, no matter which way you decide to go, you're definitely not crazy.

I feel like you hit this nail on it's head! It does feel like I am commiting to a life long decision here! Not that anyone or anything is making me feel that way. It just all seems so serious and weighty. I can see the point that you are making. It is hard to explain to others why you feel overwhelmed with the choice when their choices regarding food boil down to a decision in the grocery aisle!!

Truly, many thanks. I have read every post and digested it and they are all appreciated. And this one really hit home. I can do this. Everyone has said that both are great and either way, fresh, raw dairy is what we are trying to achieve. So I feel blessed to have this outlet and resource all in one. I have to see if I can nail down a little more on cost and then I am going to commit to a decision. Cost is really an estimate, but it does boil down to that in some sense.

This is the pregnancy hormones talking but...Hugs all around!!

holliehmstd 12/19/12 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double H Ranch (Post 6331693)
I started with goats to learn on an animal that wouldn't flatten me in the dirt...

I got a big kick out of that! :hysterical: That is something to think about!

hiddensprings 12/19/12 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holliehmstd (Post 6327450)
Is it more practical to start with goats or a cow? If you are starting out, which is better for a total newbie? That is the question that I think I am really asking and it seems that it is all subjective. Ha! I am surprised you all are not tired of me yet. I will just have to go with my gut it seems. And the gut says.....:smack

I don't think you could go wrong either way. I'll just tell you how it worked for me. I started with a milk goat that hubby got me for Christmas one year. I started with a dairy goat because I had been raising meat goats so I understood goats. Plus, I wanted to ensure that I enjoyed milking twice a day every day, never taking a vacation, having my time committed for me, etc. I feel in love with Gwendolyn. Loved spending time with her every morning and evening. I added a few more dairy goats, (up to 12 milkers now) and sold off all of the meat goats. Then about 2 years ago, I went to an auction and came home with two 1-week old jersey/holstein crossed bottle heifers. Josie and Clarabell are now 2 years old, bred, and soon I will be milking them as well. Love the cows, love the goats.
I am glad that I started with a smaller dairy animal to give myself a chance to learn how to milk and what to look for if there are problems. I think, for me at least, I would have been more intimated starting with a cow. But that's just me.
You'll figure it out. You're doing the right thing by asking questions, getting opinions, learning. Best wishes and keep us posted. (plus a picture of whatever you get would be fun!)

holliehmstd 12/19/12 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holliehmstd (Post 6328463)
For a cow, this is what I have come up with:

I want to feed mostly hay, not grain. So figuring 1/2-1 bale/day, anywhere around $45-$90/month depending upon weather, feeding requirements. Along with that kelp minerals - $30.50 lasting 6 mos., salt $17, soaking beets/alfalfa cube - not sure which avg $30 and then all the extra kale, carrots, other veggies etc from the garden that a cow can eat. I totalled this out at anywhere from $80 -$150/month.

Again, my numbers may not be accurate. But either way, when I contrast total product obtained from 1 cow vs. 3 goats and time caring for 3 animals vs. 1, I think the cow wins. I know the numbers will be larger with a cow and a calf but that is not a real issue as we are mostly hoping to do milk-fed beef with hay and butcher at 8-10mos.

oh, and fencing cost...let's not even go there. Even thought that is a one time expense.

please let me know if I am way off...

I am quoting myself!!! Yea!

I searched at length the KFC proboards and it seems that my #s may not be so off! :nanner:I may have them allocated incorrectly and missing a few points like AI cost but somewhere around $1500/yr give or take for one cow seems right. Even if it went up to $2000/year we could still work with that. I know that I will have folks that will want to buy cheese or yogurt with their eggs and that can allay some of the cost. If we hoped for an avg. of 3 gal/day for 10mos then that would be great! If there was less, it would still be okay and then factor in a little more for a beef steer or loads less if there was a heifer to sell. I think I am liking this.

Dusky Beauty 12/19/12 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holliehmstd (Post 6332152)
I am quoting myself!!! Yea!

I searched at length the KFC proboards and it seems that my #s may not be so off! :nanner:I may have them allocated incorrectly and missing a few points like AI cost but somewhere around $1500/yr give or take for one cow seems right. Even if it went up to $2000/year we could still work with that. I know that I will have folks that will want to buy cheese or yogurt with their eggs and that can allay some of the cost. If we hoped for an avg. of 3 gal/day for 10mos then that would be great! If there was less, it would still be okay and then factor in a little more for a beef steer or loads less if there was a heifer to sell. I think I am liking this.

Hollie, another think to think on--- I think you and I are about the same lvl of pregnant more or less (I'm due mid june)-- make sure you don't get yourself in a position of having a cow in milk while you are heavily pregnant. You want a cow that is at least a few months behind you in gestation.
I'm having a hard time figuring out how keep my girls in milk during my "maternity leave" from the milk parlor.

holliehmstd 12/19/12 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusky Beauty (Post 6332596)
Hollie, another think to think on--- I think you and I are about the same lvl of pregnant more or less (I'm due mid june)-- make sure you don't get yourself in a position of having a cow in milk while you are heavily pregnant. You want a cow that is at least a few months behind you in gestation.
I'm having a hard time figuring out how keep my girls in milk during my "maternity leave" from the milk parlor.

Yea! I am due May. What # are you on?

I have thought about that at length. I am pretty quick to recoup (although you never know) so I was thinking that if I can get a cow a few months before this new addition then my dear husband !miracle upon miracle! has recently said that he is looking forward to milking!! So I don't know. It is either keep on going with the nasty stuff until after May, or just jump in. Either way, we have decided for sure.....


We are going cow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:bouncy:

Dusky Beauty 12/20/12 12:08 AM

I am also on number 4.
I am probably going to hang up my milk pail on my 7th month and go to my 6 weeks postpartem before I pick it up again. Hubby's hands don't fit the girls, and DD9 isn't persistent enough to do a good job so milking begins and ends with me :(

coincidentally that is also some of the hottest, most uncomfortable months of my year here in Phoenix.
I wonder if I can get my girls to adopt some bottle calves during the hot months?

holliehmstd 12/20/12 08:16 AM

Well congratulations! I am sure if I was in a hotter location I would hang it up for a while too. I am not a "heat" person. Don't like it at all. When I asked hubby about moving to Maine he refused so there goes that. However, I never do the full rest for 6 weeks. I get too antsy. I just try to avoid the heavy lifting and hubs is good for that so I will hopefully be covered. I figure we are heading into sheer chaos so what is one more thing. Kids aged 5, 4, 1 and a newborn. Why not a cow!?

How many do you all have? Cows that is.

thaiblue12 12/20/12 10:04 AM

2 Attachment(s)
I am a goat person, so I say goat :D

You have to take what Fiasco Farm says with a grain of salt.
It costs me $3 per day in the Summer and $10 per day in the Winter to feed a herd of 35 dairy goats. I feed horse quality grass hay, alfalfa pellets and grain.

If you have three full size dairy goats you will get around 3 gallons per day.
The cost of buying three goats and keeping them is less then one cow.

Goats produce more per breeding then cows, twins, triplets and quads happen often without the issue of freemartins. I have one doe who kidded quints :eek:.
I sell babies and get a larger return then I would breeding one cow.

Poop is nice it blows away, rakes or sweeps easy. Hoof trimming is far easier then having to call someone like my neighbor did, put the cows in a chute that tills and have them do it all the while the cows were spraying poop all over and squishing their tails and forcing me to duck.

Goats can't or don't pick their noses with their own tongue, another positive :)

You kids will easily be able to handle a goat, even a standard size doe and if they get kicked or squished up against the wall or fence it hurts far less.
Goats are smart and you can teach them their names and to come when called, and jump right on the milk stand.

Goats can learn tricks like shaking hands, or jumping through hoops, or from one spool to the next. My daughter one Summer was busy teaching our wether to do this. So goats can keep kids occupied or entertained.

Three goats on one acre would be easier on your pasture and be plenty for them. Standard goats do not jump fences as much or as easily as my Nigerians do.

Goats are pretty easy to load up into an SUV to be taken to the vet or 4H and easily be shown if your kids decide to get into that.

If your does are not dry lotted they will not smell and neither will their pee or poop. Bucks are gross and do smell but you can borrow one, bring your girls to be bred or do a driveway breeding for $25-50.

I really would visit a cow dairy and a goat dairy, or people you know who keep them and milk both, see how their set up is and how easy or hard it is.

No matter what you get start with healthy animals. Look them over well, feel them for bumps an lumps, see testing records etc.


Goat babies practically sell themselves and are too cute!! ;)

Sparkie 12/20/12 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyb (Post 6331108)
Because of their small size, goats are much easier from a facilities standpoint (and on the pocketbook).

I agree with everything you said except this :)

Cows don't really "need" shelter at all. Goats do. A cow will stay behind one strand of electric, goats not so much lol.

We have a pretty large herd of cows who have no shelter at all except for natural windbreaks. They are healthy and happy. We've gone through a couple of times when we didn't have very good shelter for our goats. They were neither happy nor particularly healthy. We lost some babies because of the shelter situation.

The only real need for shelter with a milk cow is to have a place you can milk that's out of the weather. The shelter is for the human :)

ETA - and you don't need a stanchion to milk a cow, you really do need a milk stand to comfortably milk goats.

holliehmstd 12/20/12 11:02 AM

In case you missed it, we are going to be cow people!

For us it comes down to total product. I understand that goats have more babies, and 1 goat eats far less than one cow. But we have to make a complete conversion. When we invest in at-home dairy, we have to go all in. I need to get, or be able to make, all of the dairy products that we use on a regular basis - Milk, cream, sour cream, kefir, yogurt, butter, cheeses - from our dairy animal, and I simply cannot achieve that with goats without committing to a lot of animals and then the cost is higher. I can get one cow, raise a beef steer or sell a heifer and get a calf to raise for beef and that takes care of dairy and beef for the year. With goats, I would still have to buy butter and cream products and beef. I understand that goats - especially Nubians and Nigerian Dwarfs - have high butterfat content, but when looking at the work required for cream and quantity obtained vs. a Jersey cow, things just work out better. I do not know any goat owners that make goat butter. They all say that it is not worth it. So that is a big deal for me.

The other thing that I find encouraging is that I can distribute excess milk for either bartering, or animal feed. Pigs and chickens all do well on clabbered milk and whey so that will cut down on feed costs - especially for the pigs - and that helps enormously. Not to mention manure for the garden. With one animal we will be getting a lot for the hay!

This does not mean that I do not want goats ever. I still would like to have goats and it probably is not that far off. If we can acheive reasonable success with the cow, then I am hoping to get 2 Alpine doelings the next year. But for us, the cow works out better right now. I am sure there is a learning curve either way so, this will just be another great homesteading adventure!

suzyhomemaker09 12/20/12 11:04 AM

Well I'm a have both...( though you can't tell by my sig. line yet )
I have done dairy goats for quite a few years and last year I bought a bred Dexter cow....I love both for different reasons.

CaliannG 12/20/12 11:40 AM

~chuckles~ Hollie, you now know someone who does goat butter, goat cream, goat cream cheese, etc! Me!

BUT.... when I want cream to do those things with, I bring my milk in from the barn and put it immediately through the cream separator that my mother got me for X-mas a few years back. The separator is from the Ukraine, and it cost her $152.00.

Goat butter is different from cow butter. Cow cream contains Beta Carotene (a precurser of Vitamin A) that gives it that yellow look. Goat cream has bio-available Vitamin A, instead of the precurser, so it is white.

~grinz~ However, I hope you have fun with your cow! You are going to find that you are going to need a bigger property soon, though.... because dairy animals of all kinds are addicting, and you will want to add more.


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