Ok to Not cull?
 

Just this evening at the dinner table, I got to look out in the back yard and see our poorest cow getting bred. (she just calved in mid July--not bad for a bag of bones). That sight reminded me that i wanted to ask about what factors to consider regarding culling cows.

She is still quite young, and was someone else's cull. I just sent her first calf to the auction a few weeks ago. She always has had a bad chassis. This wasn't a kind year for any of our herd, but she really stands out. She does do a fine job of mowing, which is why I bought her and her lot for cheap last year. I know for certain that if I were getting tight for space, she would be the first to go. But that steer of hers (also poor) brought $600. I really didn't have to do anything for that $600 other than handling them with the entire herd. As long as she is healthy, why wouldn't I just keep her for her pasture thinning ability as long as I sell off her progeny? I know she will have hay thinning 'ability' this winter...

If she is raising calves I dont see the problem, but I am very new to the game. I used to live on a cattle ranch that culled this way....if you lost your calf for any reason it was time to get out. Didnt matter how old you were or what you were doing when you lost it. Bye! If you have a calf with you, you get to stay. Period.


Now I realize that's not how everyone does it, but thats how the boss did it. He used a big bull on his heifers and we had to pull just about every calf. About half the calves would die. No questions asked the heifer went to the next sale if her calf died. I even saw one go to the sale just hours after losing her calf. But there would be old horrible looking cows walking around with calves and they got to stay until they stopped having calves or died.

Might not be the best way, but he was very very rich off of just cattle so he musta been doing something right. AND NO using a big bull on his heifers was not right...I realize that. But something was working for him.

Our standard is also that if they can raise a calf, they get to stay. We'd only cull a cow for any other reason if we were short of feed, and a better cow would need it. Cows with "issues" like disposition or udder problems are on a watch list. First mistake, and they're gone.

Some of our least pretty cows have raised some pretty awesome calves over the years. It's the calf that we judge them by, not what the cow looks like.

I cull for any danger and bad attitude with out question.

Other than that...there are at least 3 reasons before I cull.

I have one right now that is scheduled for re-breeding.

She will not cooperate during handling, does not have the body and seems to attract more flies than any other cow.

I grew up in the beef cattle ranching business. Our criteria for culling cows was first, they got sold in the fall if they didn't produce a calf that spring. We bred first calf heifers to small bulls and any heifers that had serious problems calving got sold that fall and any older cow that had a series problem calving got sold. Any cow that didn't wean a fat calf in the fall without a reason the calf wasn't up to weight got culled.

SFM Hit on a key note. How many lbs of calf do they raise. When a cow starts bringing a calf in the fall that is under weight compared to the rest, it is time for her to go. It costs the same to keep a poor cow as a good cow.

Until I reach my stocking limit I won't cull any cows and I'll retain all heifers unless the cow CAN'T re-breed. I have only culled 1 so far (she's tasty but tough), the 1 must have slipped a disk or something while being re-breed.

Right now I have 8 heifers on the ground, 2 that will be ready to breed soon (3 months), 2 that are 8 months away, and 4 that just hit the ground in the last couple of weeks.

These 8 heifers will take me up to where I believe that for now my property can handle under normal circumstances.

I agree.......I wouldn't worry about culling too hard till you get your limit

The only risk you run for not culling her (if she is as thin as you suggest) is that she may die right there on the place and you won't get anything for her. Had one I should have culled last year go downhill real fast this spring and lost her before I could get wheels under her. I kept thinking I could turn her around. At least if you cull her, you can get some salvage value. It sounds like either way, she will make you some money already. Post some pictures. Hard to say how bad she really looks.

I was about to post that feed for a poor animal costs the same as feed for a good one. I’d rather be feeding and producing quality. But this last post about having a poor animal die on you prompted another thought.
Who do you blame for the down cow at the California Slaughterhouse? You know, the one that PETA took pictures of. The down cow being moved with a Skidsteer or the cow getting water squirted up her nose? Remember? Well, who is to blame?
The farmer will keep a cow as long as she produces a calf or as long as she produces a lot of milk. But eventually one of the poor ones starts the downward slide of ill health. The first reaction is to pump her with a couple miracle drugs. But, if after a couple weeks she’s no better, then she gets shipped to the livestock auction. But, because of the medication, he’ll have to hold her a few weeks, without medication. Naturally, she gets worse. But the Auction wants her, they make money selling such cows. There is a buyer for cull cows. He will bid on her because he can re-sell her to a processing plant. He wants her. After the sale, the buyer has bought several groups of 40 cows. He contracts a trucking company that delivers the cows to the processing plant. The trucker drives through the night, it’s cooler and he wants them to all survive the trip. The processing plant wants the cheapest cows that it can legally butcher. Any cows that can’t walk on their own, won’t leave the trailer and won’t be bought by the processing plant. As soon as your cull steps off the trailer, she becomes property of the processing plant. She is in their ownership, alive, just a short time. But she must walk to the killing floor on her own. If she lays down during this critical moment, she cannot be butchered and she creates a road block for all the rest of the cattle.
Blame the slaughterhouse without blaming every person along the trail?
Don’t be the farmer that kept a cow too long. Market the poor ones and upgrade to better cows. The cost of feed far surpasses the initial cost of the animal.

How thin is she? Why is she thin? I would be looking into this before talking about culling. Has she been tested for Johne's? Does she have very loose stool? First thing I'd do on a poor cow like that is consider Johne's. If she has it it will spread to your other cows. In case it's not something you're familiar with, google it. There is no cure.

Another good reason to cull a poor animal. You can test for Johne's and miss it. It isn't an exact blood test. You can send in a stool sample to grow a culture, but, again, if she isn't sheding Johne's, it won't be in the culture. A calf can get it from the first time he nurses a poopy teat.

This is a good discussion.

I'd rather have a thin cow that's putting milk into the calf, than a fat cow that's keeping it all to herself. As long as she can breed back, of course, which sounds like this one can.

And real muscular cows can eat alot more than some thinner ones. It's not real simple. Ideally you want a cow that eats less making more pounds of calf.

Here's some interesting research going on where they are measuring cow's intake of feed and comparing to how many pounds of calf they produce. Big difference between cows in efficiency.

I'll try to get out there and snap some pics. I don't think she is particularly unhealthy. She is thrifty and her current calf is fine. Milk is good, her calf is keeping pace. Her ribs aren't showing or anything. She just has a terrible looking frame. Almost malformed. You could swing from her back hip bones. They are quite wide for the rest of her frame. She tapers to a chisel at her front shoulder and her front legs are short. She was a twin. Her sister looks normal. Her first steer got a haircut at the sale barn. He didn't fill out right, either. He had the very stubby front legs. The reason I am not terribly concerned at this point is that my only feed input is grass/hay. Even the ugly runt legged steer paid for what he ate.

I am currently long on pasture, and am really trying to ascertain whether it is better to move her out and leave the grass for the next cow or just let it ride. She is a cheap peace of capital. Replacing her today with a better cow would take a few years to recoup.

This is just my opinion. If you can afford to upgrade her why would you not?

You say her calf brought $600? That's way too low. If the calf was sold at weaning (mine are usually at least 650 to 750 pounds), he should have brought anywhere from $800 to $950. So, why would you keep a cow that produces $600 per year in revenue instead of $800 per year? It doesn't make sense financially.

Paul, I know what you are saying but the other side of the equation is how much is this cow costing. You need to subtract out the expenses to get a good picture. If the cow is small/efficient and only costs $200 to keep for a year - then she is paying $400 when you sell a $600 calf off her. If the cow that makes $800 to $950 costs you $600 to keep, your profit is $200 to $350. In my opinion, for too long cattle producers (in particular cow-calf operations) have ignored input costs because they are hard to calculate.

In a healthy grass-fed operation, you have very few input costs. A cull cow, if you look at it, will usually cost more to keep than a better quality cow. Less vet fees (whether you do the vet work or hire it), an easy keeper keeps more weight producing more milk on less hay/grass, etc. It doesn't pay to keep a cull in the long run.

In my opinion, if she isn't showing ribs she isn't thin. I don't mind hip bones sticking out. She probably has some dairy in her. If she is feeding a calf and trying to breed back, she has a heavy load right now. Even a rib or two showing would be fine. Her conformation doesn't sound great. Normally cows who are pinched at the heart girth (which is I think what you are saying) are harder keepers and are not thrifty cattle. You said she is thrifty, so maybe she is the exception to that rule. I wouldn't cull her just for looks. Some ugly cows can still make you good money. I do cull for disposition. I do cull for any health issues. I do cull if she doesn't breed back within 3 months of calving. I do cull if she is a hard keeper.

But - you said she is thrifty, so it sounds like her only fault is that she looks rough. I don't cull for looks - yet!

I don't disagree with you - if she is a cull. However, if she is just an ugly cow with high pins who is not a hard keeper and has no health issues and breeds back - then I don't see that as a cull.

What I don't agree with is the idea that you should sell anything that produces a smaller calf. You have to take into account the size of the cow and how much she is eating - especially in a grass fed operation. What would you rather have an 1800 lb cow that sells a 700 lb calf or a 1200 lb cow that sells a 600 lb calf? That 700 lb calf is sure going to make you more money - BUT that 1800 lb mama cow is sure going to eat a lot more feed. I would take the 1200 lb cow and her 600 lb calf any day.

bigbluegrass

I agree and that is how I operate my place.

I agree except that if his calf is 700 pounds, there was something seriously wrong if it only brought $600. You're right that the difference in 100 pounds is not indicative of a cull.

However, if his other calves bring $800+ and that one brings $600, she is a cull, in most situations because she is either not converting her feedstuffs to milk efficiently or some other situation. However, if all of his calves brought only $600, then he is probably weaning and selling too soon or he all his cows are not producing enough milk. If that's the case, he needs to look at the cause as it is most likely a management issue and not the fault of the cow unless he has inferior genetics herd wide.

But, I agree that an ugly cow isn't a cull. However, if she has a lousy frame, that is a cull because she will most likely produce inferior framed calves that will either not perform well enough or they will not sell high enough.

We are going to cull a beautiful 2.5 year old cow this year who just had a calf because she keeps trying to kill us. She's been paranoid since birth, but now she's just plain dangerous. As soon as her calf can be weaned, she's going in the freezer.

Everyone here has good points - IMO, the question is "what are you going to put in her place?" and make the valuation judgement there. What's "good enough" changes.
The "what does it cost" is different for every operation and owner.

Bingo. I think I may have confused the discussion more than necessary by abusing a few cattle terms. I guess vocabulary is learned real-time.

So as not to confuse with weights and total sales price, here is what happened on his sale day. He sold at the high end of the slaughter scale that day ($90). The two other like sized steers that I sent with him sold at the mid-range of their weight group ($130). He definitely was docked as my neighbor/mentor told me he would because of his inherited frame.

I need to sit down with pencil and paper to confirm this, but I think Paul may be correct. Assuming she is always going produce a clunker, I would be better off selling her at salvage rates and reinvesting in a better heifer (say $750 for the sake of argument). It would necessarily need to be a very young heifer at that price, which means 2+ years before any revenue, but over the expected life span of the ugly cow, the good young heifer would be money ahead over this cow, I think, for the cash that is sitting in the asset. Man I am glad she was cheap.

We have a cow, old Victoria, who has what we think is a Omasal dilation and displacement problem. She has had it since we first bought the herd, many moons ago. She is HUGE on her right side. We had her written down to be put down come late fall because we didn't see how she could 1.) settle or 2.) have a viable calf. I mean, when she is not pregnant, she looks like she is carrying a huge calf..on her right side.

Well, God bless Victoria! She delivered a big dun bull calf 2 weeks ago..guess she wanted to stay a few more months/years..lol. I love that cow..I'd rather go without something else than put her down pre-maturely. I will say that we are watching her closely for milk production. Every year we notice a big difference..and at some point we may have to help her calf out.

I totally understand you dilema, we have the "Victoria" dilema here. She has however, tried to solve it for another year..lol.

Lol. In my case, I really have no emotional attachment to any of the cows--thats what the goats are for. I just want to figure out the right approach to allocating $ while the herd is growing to its optimal size.

Even when I say that I view all animals on the farm as assets, I would be lying to say I didn't attach to one once in awhile. BUT.... I try to not let it interfere with my "business" decision. I have definite standards of what I cull, and sometimes it may not be easy, but I try to stick to it.

One example is a goat and her doe kid. I have mostly meat goats, but she was a Nubian and a fantastic milker. Three years in a row, she had single births. I should have culled her after the second. This last time, she wouldn't let her doeling nurse. I had to take the little doe inside and keep her inside for several days, bottle feeding. After that the mama, cut her teat on something. I stitched it up, but it became obvious she would never hold milk in that half of her udder again. The tear wouldn't seal up and milk just drained. She was my favorite goat and as hard as it was, I knew she had to go and I had waited one year too many to make the decision that I wouldn't have normally had trouble making. Now, her doeling is one of my favorites. oh, Lordy... lol

When looking at culling, it depends on your goals. If you're trying to build a good healthy, herd of easy-keepers, that will produce the highest profit margin, you have to produce what buyers are looking for and that sometimes means we have to make hard decisions of what to cull and when.

The fact that you were docked so heavily taught you well, huh? When a calf sells for slaughter, even the upper end of the slaughter scale, I have been torn between whether I was embarrassed or insulted. lol. But, $90 in a $130 market answered your own question about whether to cull that cow.

.....JMHO......

See, you are "goat people", too! :sing:

Yes, it really was a good lesson. I've already started shopping. Personally, I didn't feel insulted. That steer was bad. I can see someone feeling embarrassed, but for me, I have way to far to go to even think that anything good that I produce was any of my own doing. Life is just one long embarrassment.

Geez, I thought you were my friend. LOL

Actually, I don't call myself a cattleman or a goat herder. lol I call myself a stockman, and although my grandfather and great-grandfather had land and cattle (and no goats), they always referred to themselves as stockmen. I don't think either one of them new another way of life. So, I feel that I do come by it honestly.