I want to emphasize that the main objective of me starting this thread was in dealing with profitable beef cow/calf operations and how we grew our operation both in terms of cattle numbers and land acres.

The point wasn't in dealing with dairy animals, minis, exotics, etc. Those all carry issues of their own, especially in marketing and providing revenue streams...

Is it more economical to grow your own replacements or just keep buying cows in the beginning? Quote...

If you need more cattle in the beginning you may want to buy some to fast forward the operation, however if you have the time to wait, you are better off to raise your own IMO if you have good genetics. Cattle that are raised on your place know your farm, know the ropes so to speak, forexample if you have electric fencing, or automatic waterers. New cattle may have to learn all that plus go thru the acceptance of all the others.....and the real biggie...the possibility of bringing in disease.

I never thought I would be buying hay. 60 bales. It sucked. I've got 30 days more of this before I am on to hay. I took a worst-case scenario of no grass til March. It was not the kind of business decision I would normally make. I had the cash, and found myself speculating. Not good. I don't want to sell my cows and have to start over again. The land needs to produce, and I don't want anymore slack in revenue.

So how long should it take before a start up should expect to see a profit in a cow calf operation? Including recouping your initial investment?

Good question but I am betting it is a hard one to answer since everything is going to be dependant on how exactly each individual runs his own operation. If you're buying 3 in 1 packages like Paul did, you may see a profit sooner but you may be replacing cows sooner since he bought older cows. If you buy registered stock, you will more than likely pay more upfront, but if the cattle market fluctuates, you may not see a higher price when you go to sell. Too many variables.

I understand that, i was just curious what others have found or expect. Personally when I penciled it out in the past it was about 6 years. That included my initial investment and infrastructure. Now that can change greatly depending on markets and other factors. Including how fast I need it to be a profit center.

In my 6 yr model I was keeping all of my heifers as well as purchasing a few heifers each year. However if it never rains I won't be able to just use my cows as a write off on my schedule f and will have to slow my expansion to produce income.

I agree with the others that there are too many variables. Not only will it vary due to weather, health of animals, breeding cycles, etc, but also your location will have a lot to do with it. Are you in a cattle center where you can market your calves, or do you have to ship them? Are you in an area with a lot of grazing, or does it take 10 acres to support a cow and calf?

Here, we have good grazing from about April through October. You can buy the "3 way" package like we did and buy older cows. Cows can still breed into their late teens, but you also run risks of more problems. We had good luck.

As far as infrastructure... that is a loaded one. We started out building a "working chute" out of hedge posts we cut, using left over 2x6's treated, and a used head gate for less than $100. We originally used an old wooden homemade feed bunk. We used no hay bale feeders. We unrolled the hay each day only what they would consume that day (in the winter). Infrastructure doesn't take much starting out.

Do a little pencil work. If you start and buy 5 cows with a calf on the side and one in the belly, let's say she's old and you can get them for $1800 each. That would be $9000. BUT... you'll have (at most) 15 calves to sell. Let's say they bring $850 each at the sale barn at 650 to 700 pounds. You'll gross $12,750. That will pay back the original 9K for the cows and give you an additional 3750 to budget for hay, fence repair, vet bills, etc. Not much to play with. Not only that, but you might only get 14 calves to sell.

Like I said before it has to budgeted or it just won't work, or won't work as well as it should.

Keep in mind that the 12750 would also be over a couple years.

Like anything, the more you have to borrow, the worse off you'll be. The more numbers you have, the more you have to work with. The expense ratio doesn't necessarily increase with the revenue. For example, if you grass feed, it will take calves a little longer to reach weaning weight but, you also don't increase your feed expense in relation to the number of head. For us, it was in the numbers. We also never borrowed money to buy cows.

no working pens
 

I am a newbie with out any pens to work cattle.
If anybody has a design or pictures for a simple and small pen to work cattle
I could sure use it.
Not much of a welder but I do work by day at a lumber yard so cheap culled lumber is my best option

Look here Cattle Handling and Working Facilities

Google "wood cattle pen designs" you get all kinds of info

and here Beef - LSU AgCenter

here
http://www.uaex.edu/Other_Areas/publ.../PDF/MP239.pdf

You get the idea

What is the earliest age to safely have an angus heifer bred?

15months IMO thats about when they reach puberty. Its rare that one gets bred earlier than that but it does happen occasionally.

HDRider had good links. But, honestly, in the beginning, go simple and cheap but good.

For example, if you start out with just 4 or 5 cows, you don't need anything elaborate. One catch pen that narrows down to a working chute and head gate. That can be home built. Then, you need a pen on the other side for the animal to be turned into when they come out of the chute. There are times, you want to observe a cow or calf after working before you turn them back out on pasture. So, you need a holding/sorting/temporary pen. Basically, something as simple as a working chute between two pens.

That is probably the norm for most cattlemen that breed any standard sized beef breed heifer. However, we don't breed until they are 19 months of age.

Our reasons: It almost eliminated our "first calf heifer" calving problems. I'll explain our way of thinking.

A heifer has reached the ability to breed at 15 and can usually easily calve at 24 months of age. BUT... just because she can calve at 24 months doesn't mean that she has reached enough maturity to have fully come into her maternal instincts.

We feel that extra 4 months gives them time to finish coming into their maternal instincts to the point that we almost eliminated the "cow claiming her first calf" problems. Also, we didn't have as many birthing problems related to calving out a young heifer. That 4 months allows her to be able to better handle a bigger calf, that she should've been smaller. lol

You can always breed a small birthweight bull to a heifer, but it is no guarantee that the calf will be small.

But, to answer your question, most people breed at 15 months. We breed at 19 months.

PaulNKS, I agree with you completely! I've also found that they are much better mothers when they're a little bit older. Have also held heifers back as long as needed to time their calving to early spring or mid fall.

Alaska

700 to 750 lbs

I agree with you on almost everything, but respectfully, heifers should be at that weight by the time they are less than a year old... say around 10 or 11 months which is way too young to breed. If they are that small at 15 months or 19 months, then there is a problem either with genetics or with the nutrition.

Most things with cattle are based on weights, except for breeding.

While on the subject of breeding and heifers. For the newbies if you have a heifer that was a twin to a bull, either sell her for slaughter or put her in the freezer. They are usually sterile.

How big are your cows if your heifers are 750 lbs. at 10 or 11 months?

The rule of thumb I've always heard is that a heifer should be about 66% of her mature weight when she is ready to be bred, which usually happens at about 13 to 15 months old.

How big? as in how tall? It depends on the breed and the frame.

I don't know anything about the 66% stat. It could be. That would be close. Take a Hereford cow as an example. Mature, she will weigh 1200 to 1500 pounds. So, would 66% be somewhere between 800 and 1000 pounds? I don't have my calculator. lol

15 months seems to be the best time for me cause in keeps my calving time in sync with the rest of the herd. if I am trying to have calves from Mid Feb to 1st of May time frame I want those heifers to breed around 15 months so they will calve in that window, if I waited untill 19 months then they would calve 1st of August.....out of sync with the rest of the herd unless you like fall calving which i don't.....dry cows are easier to winter. Theoretically the older the better, but you can have idiots in any group of heifers at any age and calving problems can happen with older cows as well. My cows are crossed up with a touch of beefmaster and some with a touch of charlois as well as angus so i rarely have calving problems as one might have with a purebred angus.

After we stopped having a bull with the cows 24/7/365, we went to two calf crops... spring and fall. We've always culled cows that were not easy keepers, even in winter. With hay and protein, a nursing cow should be okay in the winter in most areas. Not only that, you have to look at the markets. One of the times of the year that cattle prices are up is in the early spring when people are buying calves to put on new pasture. So, we always want calves to sell twice each year. Not only that, selling more than one calf crop per year can help average the selling price.

I will add that when growing up in west Texas, we never kept calves over winter and each fall all cows were preg checked. All calves went to town and all cows that were open went to town.

There are different ways to do things,whatever works, periodic sales at certain times of the year and throughout the year would help cash flow.
Right now, my main objective is maximizing my pasture and cattle numbers thru IRG. This is my first year at this, while having farmed and raised cattle all my life, I can see so much potential already in one year. I believe it is possible to double my forage output....if I can, that would be like buying another farm.
I have come to believe that IRG is the final frontier...the future of farming.

Heifers can start cycling a long time before that. Depending on their breeding and their plane of nutrition. Many don't, but everyone should be aware that it can and does happen. Get the girls and boys separated soon as they are weaned.

A heifer will usually have her first heat cycle as early as 9 months.

It's nice to sell throughout the year, but at a sale barn, you will usually get more money per calf if they are sold in larger groups rather than one, two, or three calves.

If you have the time it takes to dedicate to IRG, it's great. But, when you have 5 or 6 farms and a lot going on, it can be impractical. I would love to e able to do it, but I don't have the time to dedicate to setting up, hauling water, etc.

Here, we do have ponds to water stock. But if I set up IRG there are some paddocks that would not have water access and I'd be hauling water every day. Not only do I not have the time for that, I also don't have the time to be moving cattle very often.

I wish I could find a way to do it... (Okay.. maybe I'm too lazy to do it. lol)

In reality. I'm to the point that the operation is making a nice profit. My website is also a nice revenue stream for just 2 or 3 hours of work per day. At 51 years old, I really don't want to have to work as hard as I did for the last 20 years getting this set up. I spent the early part of my life working like a dog and getting things set up so that when I got to the age I am now, I could sit back and relax more and enjoy the last 1/3 to1/2 of my life.

The other thing for us... we like to travel and have a 5th wheel RV. IRG would keep us from being able to travel in the summers.

Anyone that has the time and resources to put into IRG I think is on the right track.

You stated that it was the future of farming. It has always been a practice in other parts of the world. It's just here that we are lagging in that respect.

IRG = MIG?

Was it the herd size that got you to go to two crops/year? Right now we are pulling the bulls to avoid births in the dead of winter (mostly for self-comfort and marginally to minimize the chance of death due to extremes (and because we don't have to think to hard about it yet)). The net result of that is that we have calves dropping from March thru December.

How difficult is it to get a herd in sync?

Last question: I assume "spring and fall" relates to the birthing, not the weaning?

It's nice to sell throughout the year, but at a sale barn, you will usually get more money per calf if they are sold in larger groups rather than one, two, or three calves.

If you have the time it takes to dedicate to IRG, it's great. But, when you have 5 or 6 farms and a lot going on, it can be impractical. I would love to e able to do it, but I don't have the time to dedicate to setting up, hauling water, etc.

Here, we do have ponds to water stock. But if I set up IRG there are some paddocks that would not have water access and I'd be hauling water every day. Not only do I not have the time for that, I also don't have the time to be moving cattle very often.

I wish I could find a way to do it..

I market roughly 4 times through the year. As for as time allocations. I have other interests that I also have time commitments...IRG is a time saver not a time consumer. I now have more than 3 times as many brood cows as I started with. Since I make no hay nor do I fed any grain that effort and expense is avoided. Excess land that was hay land is now leased to others and is income producing. I use to go through sweat and worry that are no longer expended. My day to day involvement is approximately 30 minutes. Just recently I have brought a neighbor woman that is interested in cattle into my operation. She is eager to learn and is extremely dependable and she will look after my herd if I need to take a trip. As you recognize, so do I, that we are different in what we do and where we live and what either of us do may not be complimentary or beneficial to the other. However, of the visitors that come here to observe IRG they seem to leave having difficulty believing how simple the operation is and how little time is involved.

In reality. I'm to the point that the operation is making a nice profit. My website is also a nice revenue stream for just 2 or 3 hours of work per day. At 51 years old, I really don't want to have to work as hard as I did for the last 20 years getting this set up. I spent the early part of my life working like a dog and getting things set up so that when I got to the age I am now, I could sit back and relax more and enjoy the last 1/3 to1/2 of my life.

I do not have a website but the bulk of the comments in the above paragraph we have in common.

Anyone that has the time and resources to put into IRG I think is on the right track.

IMO with IRG you would have more time and considerably more profit while requiring less resources. As is said "the proof of the pudding is in the eating" You need to adapt IGR to your place and your location and enjoy the results. Have a good day and keep posting. I like reading your inputs.

If you can manage just a few paddocks with water access, you can use a moving/advancing wire to start the cattle off in small area close to the water, then expand their grazing space each day. Their walk to water will get a bit longer each day, but not any worse than with continuous grazing of the same plot. Then rotate to the other paddock starting the wire close to the water again, allowing the first paddock to rest...

Have you had any experience doing that when the only water on a quarter-section is a single pond in one of the corners of the property? And, the land is rolling with groups of trees and/or brush scattered here and there?

Ramiller.....Agmantoo would be the voice of experience, but basically you would make a lane/alleyway 30;or so wide M/L thru your field to your pond and then allocate each side of the lane using polywire perpendicular to your lane fence wire.

PaulNKS....Certainly if you are satisfied with the way you operation is going then that is quite alright by me.
There are however a couple of misconceptions about IRG-MIG that most people have had that I had for years.
1) Is that you have to have water in every paddock...not so. You make a lane/alleyway to a common water source then build your paddocks around your lane. I would agree with you, if I had to haul water everyday, I wouldn't care how good it was, I would forget it.
2)Is that you are having to always get the cattle up and move them to their new pasture. I used to have in my mind that with IRG I would have to go out everyday or 2 or 3 and get the cattle up and drive them to their new pasture with them kicking and screaming so to speak. But not so..after cattle have cleaned up a paddock they are READY to move to a new one all you have to do is open the gate.
I remember years ago say 30 or more years ago that I asked my Dad one day..."Why don't we do rotational grazing" because I heard about it at a farm meeting and thought it sounded interesting. He looked at me and said" Do you want to be getting up cattle everyday or two and moving them? I said no....but that was because in his mind and mine... getting up the cattle was a big job getting everybody we could to go roundup and drive them halfway across the farm and them not really wanting to go! But now I know thats not the way it is.

I group my feeder calves when they are sent to market because as stated the grouped calves will bring more than if they were sold individually.

My production practices differ but they work for me and my location. I use bulls that sire small calves to minimize calving issues. I do want a calf from a heifer on her 2nd birthday and I want a calf each 10 1/2 to 11 months following her first calf. For me giving the heifer an additional 4 months to mature is lost opportunity. If I introduce 9 to 10 heifers to the herd each year then that is 36 to 40 weeks worth of gestation period lost and a reduction of 4 calves to market. Since I feed no grain my cattle are less prone to put on weight during the 3 trimester and typically calve unassisted. As I have stated numerous times, I am not a midwife to a cow. I feel if I am having calving issues it is due to something I have created. By calving year round the need for a number of bulls is reduced. I only have one mature bull at this time. He averages servicing 8 to 10 cow per month. The key to being profitable in my operation is controlling input costs and selling as many calves as possible. I do not have high milk yielding cows nor do I want them. I want cattle that will remain as near body condition score 5 as possible all year with no supplement feed. Having calves that wean at a good marketable weight a month or more before the cow has the calf she is carrying is efficient enough to meet my goals. Carrying a calf for an additional month costs me literally nothing in out of pocket expense.

Partly. The other part was to protect against the markets. If you sell more than one time per year, you aren't at the mercy of the market on just that day. If the prices are low that day, then you may hedge by selling later in the year when prices may be higher. It's more of a hedging situation.

In your part of the country, you won't really have to worry about deaths due to "severity". Beef cattle are usually hardy. Most calves are born in January and February. However, we like to have them in March/April and August/September.
without using injections, you have to hold some back.

Yes.

I honestly don't know enough about IRG to carry on much of a discussion. However, here, our grazing "season" is usually May 1 to October 1. That's only five out of the 12 months. So, hay is fed more months than not. Also, the way our ponds are placed, it would be difficult. This isn't flat land. It's hills, creeks, rivers, some timber, etc. I've tried to come up with several configurations for the cattle we have, but there would be no way for me to get around hauling water at least 1/3 of the time.

I will say this, I'll keep looking into it because I know we would benefit from it, if we can get it to work on our farms. I'm also not a fan of movable fencing. So, if I do it, it will be with permanent fencing. :)

Keep this good stuff coming. It is encouraging for a nube like me to see success in the varying approaches of you guys with experience.

PaulNKS, half of my land looks ready-made for IRG. The other half is as you described. Maybe I'll give that half to the goats. :spinsmiley:

This thread

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/liv...l-grazing.html

is an absolute wealth of info and stories on rotational grazing.

Agman is real helpful (like you Paul) with those of us studying that practice. He is very active on that thread. I actually visited his farm, and man o man, what an inspiration.

here, our grazing "season" is usually May 1 to October 1. That's only five out of the 12 months. So, hay is fed more months than not.
Do you have hard winters that it doesn't warm up untill May 1 and gets cold around Oct 1 ?

Paul or anyone else; will you discuss feeding those 400-500 lb calves obtained at the sale barn? Our goal is to feed pasture/hay, but what is good feeding practice for the young ones? Thanks

I found this excellent series in Beef Magazine that I thought went very well with Paul’s series.

This is the link to the last post so far:
Profit Per Cow, Or Per Acre? | Strategic Planning For The Ranch

You might want to back all the way up and read the whole series. It is fantastic and applies to big guys, but we little guys can learn a lot from it too.

It is written by:
Burke Teichert, consultant on strategic planning for ranches, is retired as vice president and general manager of Deseret. He can be reached at burketei@comcast.net.

HDRider

I have read the article 3 times and my conclusion is that the article is just semantics. If you can interpret the article differently please give me your thoughts.

I sell my cattle and my net profit divided by the number of animals sold give me my profit per animal. I divide my acreage into that profit and it gives me my profit per acre. I then compare that to what I perceive is the profit per acre that grain farmers make in my area. Mentally I compare my risks to their risks to see how I am doing. Also you have seen my place and it is apparent that only a portion of the land that I am growing forage on could be used from grain farming. There is no net profit without the animals. Marketed animals, to the buyer at a profit or on a per acre basis is the true results of the ability of the land to produce, the management of the animals and the managers skill to control input costs IMO.

I wonder if the implied message may be toward higher stocking rates per acre as a goal.

I thought his point was that small cattle are more efficient. I have a half holstein milk cow and her calf (half beef breed) is growing like a weed, it's already caught calves quite a bit older than her. But is the size of the calf the only thing that matters? Of course not and that's what the article is trying to elucidate.