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how to bring this pasture up to par
I am in the process of buying several acres of pasture. Finally got to see it in person a last week. I thought it was alfalfa, however it is not. I ended up buying a different parcel than I originally offered for and this is mainly grass, weeds and several bare spots on rolling hills.
This is hard packed clay dirt with little/no organic material at all. I have 7 years before I actually move to this location so I have time to get the soil in better condition. It has been suggested, that I lease it out to a farmer to grow alfalfa, for this year grow a cover crop and deep plow it into the soil. After 5 years of him growing alfalfa, plow it under and grow another cover crop. plow that under and then plant grass. Something like this: 2012 cover crop- plow under 2013 alfalfa 2014 alfalfa 2015 alfalfa 2016 alfalfa 2017 alfalfa 2018 cover crop - plow under 2019 grass mix for pasture Any thoughts or ideas? |
If as you say, it is hard packed clay with bare spots, the alfalfa planting alone will not build it up nearly enough. If you hadn't bought it, I would have recommended finding something else that had decent soil... even a little more than just hard packed clay.
At this point, I honestly don't know what will build it up in as short of a time frame you are needing. Go talk to your extension agent. No one recommendation works everywhere and your agent will know what will work best for your geographical location. |
let me see if I can post a picture.
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Do you know why it is poor? Was it over-grazed? Short on water? Poor soil? has anybody ever fed it?
If I have any sort of decent grass, I like to top seed with a good pasture grass seed. Unless you have perfect rain at just the right time, or you have irrigation sprinklers, it can be tricky to get a plowed and planted field of grass to come up. Established grass with shade the seed, keep the birds off of it (sort of), and prevent water from evaporating off. If you can get hold of a lot of manure, one of those mechanical manure spreaders to top dress will really make a difference. Except that it is difficult to find that much manure unless you are really close to a dairy or large riding stable. Oats grow well in a lot of varied conditions and make a big plant that isn't invasive (its an annual) and it has a large root system. The seed is cheap, which is an issue if all you are going to do with it is plow it under. |
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I think it was short on water, however that should not be a problem for me. It was planted in grass and then grazed too soon also. It is a good bit of land ( for me at least) about 70 acres and when I start out, I wont have very many cattle to start, and plan to do rotational grazing.
I am hoping that if I start off with 5-10 cows (frame size 2-3) I can graze one section at a time, even if I have to leave half of it to rest another year. |
Alfalfa will help break up deep compaction if present. It will also fix nitrogen in the soil. Selling hay is also selling a lot of fertility phos and potash unless the farmer is fertilizing. I would plant the final pasture at least one year and ideally 2 years before you intend to graze it. If yyou have hill ground prone to erosion I would never plow.
You really need to know what you have growing there. Are these grasses, desireable grasses or invader low benefit grasses. i would suggest you call your extension service and see if they have a range management or grazing specialist and walk your pasture and learn what you are starting with and get some ideas or where you want to end up. A good diverse legume and grass pasture is probably the most beneficial cover for the soil and that is what you want to end up with, so why not get it established as soon as possible. Once established you could rent it to be hayed once a year for some income. If managed right you will have an incredible vigorous and healthy pasture when you are ready to start grazing. |
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I don't see why you would want to plant a cover crop coming off alfalfa. If your idea is to fix N why suck it back out with a cover crop?
If you want organic matter, you're going about it all wrong. 5 years of taking it off as hay won't help that at all. Have the farmer put it down to corn for 6 years have him take it off as shell corn rather than silage. Seed it down to your pasture mix after that. |
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I dont think corn will grow in clay. What is the difference between taking it off as shell corn or as silage? Thanks |
Dreamfarm
I take a different approach than most when improving soil. I first take a soil sample and adjust the PH according to the results of the test. Over time I haul to my place any organic material I can gather for nothing. Anytime anyone in the area has hay that has rotted or spoiled from being baled to wet I usually get a call. I also haul sawdust to my place. I pay to get chicken litter spread. With thin or no topsoil I constantly am planting anything that I think I can coax into growing. I return this organic material to the top of the soil. I never plow or break the ground. With little or no topside this thin created soil covering it essential IMO to start additional growth of more desirable plants. I do not want to dilute the topsoil with the underlying subsoil. By doing this I am trying to create a rich layer where the seed is placed to encourage growth. I am reluctant to use any herbicides and pesticides. I want to establish earth worms and microorganism. My intent is to break down the humus and to let the earth worms work the soil to absorb rain. I have had good results. Normally it will take me 3 years to improve the soil to where it is productive and will grow decent forage. I suggest you observe what is growing on the shoulders of the roads and in the side ditches in your location. Any of the plants that the cattle will eat are good plants to consider for establishing on your place. Once you get good ground cover and decent soil you can then shift to plants that you want to grow. Establish grasses first then the legumes. Otherwise the legumes will choke the newly sown grass seedings. The following pic is a parcel that was previously depleted and was growing scrub pines and trash weeds http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...rthIredell.jpg |
Your alfalfa will give you maybe an 80 lb N credit when you plow it down.
You will not have done much for your organic matter or any other nutrient at all by harvesting the stuff as hay and shipping it off to some other farmer. By growing corn, and harvesting it as shell corn you leave behind the stalk which will break down and add organic matter to your soil. If the farmer uses manure to fertilize for the corn that would be even better. |
Thank you Agmantoo. I have read your postings on rotational grazing and hope to have pasture as nice as yours one day.
When I close on the land I will get a soil sample taken. I dont necessarily need to have a farmer plant any hay, right? Do you think I can just cover the land with manure, old hay and sawdust, plant a ground cover and then plow that under and plant grass then legumes? How long after that would I let the cattle on the land? I could probably even cut the land in half and do half at a time. |
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If you can not haul organic material and spread it across your land then I would no-till plant vigorus annuals into the land - focusing on annuals that put down strong and deep root systems as well as plenty of organic matter. You could then simply clip the pasture letting the leaves and stems to decompose. It is not too late in the year to put down a Sorghum, Sudex, Johnsongrass, or Sudan Grass.You could then take a bush hog and chop this down to rot in the field this fall and no-till plant an annual rye or ryegrass with red clover. Then April/May of next year again put down the summer annual above. You may have to use a no-till planter that is designed to push heavy crop residue out of the way so planting is successful. Do this for several years to help build organic material ON TOP of your hard-pan clay soil and let nature incorporate it for you via earth worms. I reckon you could help by running a plug ariator over the pasture once a year but I don't think this would be really necessary if you have a 7 year window. 2 years before you plan on grazing plant your permanent pasture. Anyway this is what I'm planning on doing on some spots of my red-clay soil that seem to be resistent to pasture taking. Deep/massive root system vigorous annuals, I may plant tillage radish into the program to help break up and mellow the clay soil. Some may say but your throwing money into seed that your not getting any return on - I say your getting your return by feeding your soil instead of taking it off. I got this idea from Agmantoo btw this is not my own idea. |
Agmantoo, SCRancher, & sammyd: What about leasing the land to a cattle farmer for the WINTER to allow him to feed hay to his cows?
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Get some experienced eyes to look at it, you may have more then you think in the pasture already.
What I deal with is warm season native grass with a little bermuda thrown in. The Idea of plowing up and starting over just isn't a workable solution here most of the time. |
After looking at the photo. It looks like your pasture has been overgrazed. That does not have to be a permanent condition. If your walkthrough shows you have desireable grasses present and income is not necessary. I would let this pasture grow, irrigate as needed this year. You will see a different pasture by fall. Grasses left unharvested will greatly increase their rootmass. The dead grass left will accumulate and provide material for fungi and bacterial breakdown improving organic matter, soil structure, water holding capacity, erosion control ect. I would guess you will have better soil doing this than any farming plan you could follow. plow, plant a cover crop, when you have a covercrop already planted, it is called grass. Look at the ungrazed grasses on the outside of your fence, they seem to be doing well and they are not fertilized, plowed or clipped. Importing organic matter is a great idea, if it is feasible. Copperhead's idea of winter grazing maybe something to look into, if not overdone. Let us know what your extension guy said. I would get the contact information from him on the rangement, grazing specialist in your state and talk to him before You do anything drastic. Just because the local guy comes out and gives you advice, does not mean he has expertise in the subject. He may have experience in dar=iry or orchard or wheat and not so much with pastures.
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The picture provided doesn't look nearly as bad as the description in the opening post.
I think good basic grass management is all you need while continuing to increase the organics. Obviously from all the postings there are numerous ways to go about it. It may just need a couple years of rest and nutrition. Get a few soil samples and find out what actually is going on with your soil. Then you can have an agronomist or the extension service in that county develop a plan. |
One of the best ways to provide organic matter, is to just MOW the land. The cut plants fall down and are used as a "mulching" layer for the plant roots. The worms have food to pull down into the soil, and that organic material is put to use!
I also would suggest getting a soil test. Maybe a couple tests, if the land slopes or has quite varied terrain. Hill tops will test differently than the low spots things run down into. To do a correct soil test you need to take SEVERAL dirt samples, with a spade, going down at least 12 inches, then let the dirt dry and mix it together. You ACTUALLY only need about 2 cups of dirt for the sample. One of the reasons for suggesting you test each of the areas, by itself. I don't think with such a small sample, that you can really get a great overall, test of large areas of land. Your Extension Service walk thru, should provide information you don't have now on what is growing on the land. Are those plants going to be useful for your future plans of cattle grazing? Are they plants that show a need for certain soil additives, like mosses? Or older plantings that are doing very well, like stands of alfalfa or clovers, both benefical plants to the soil. The suggested checking for local farmers wanting to dump manure, is a TERRIFIC idea. Most dairy places would like to have a place to spread so they don't have to give their own fields time off. Horse farms with the bedding, are also a great source of organic matter. Whatever kind of bedding they use, it will help the land. However, most of them don't have much in spreading equipment, so you might have to hire the hauling and spreading for that "free" manure. The other suggestions of old hay, spread over the fields is a good one if you can get it for free or almost nothing, except your time hauling it. Our pasture land has improved greatly with spreading our horse bedding and frequent mowing over the last few years. The acreage is small, about 10 acres, but the pasture quality is needed to prevent buying hay for summer feeding of the horses. With just some basic attention in fertilizing, mowing, things have improved greatly. I put down pasture mix seed of perennials to any "poor spots, bald places" as needed. I can't afford seed to just be plowed under in a short time. And doing that for several years just sounds incredibly wasteful of your cash resources! I do practice rotational grazing, mowing immediately after horses get moved to the next field. We are lucky to have fairly regular rain all season, so the grasses keep on growing. Even if dry in July and August, the heavy mulching layer of mowed grasses, DEEP roots of the plants, AND the damp clay soil, keep production of new grasses coming along. I have attended the pasture and lawn management seminars put on by the Michigan State University, who actually have a Grass Lab Department. The uses of grass are so varied, that the topic can cover a lot of area. However, as the MSU folks say, "Grass is grass" whether you are grazing it or running a golf course. Mowing to leave some height on the leaves, mowing OFTEN, before the leaves get very long, is the BEST way to have great lawns or pastures! Mowing prevents the plants going to seed, so they keep growing roots, while trying to get leaves enough to set seed. If they can't set seed, the plant keeps producing ALL SEASON for grazing on. Mowing higher, at a 5 inch height for pasture, but cutting before it gets over 8-10 inches tall, will build that root system and be very grazable for the animals. They LIKE new growth. Also keeps the weeds down, and tends to choke them out with the grass roots filling in all the area of dirt. Grass left unmowed, goes to seed, plant goes dormant for the REST OF THE SEASON. His job is done after seed set has dried. No more new leaves to eat. That tall growth stems and leaves has little or no feed value. Grass seeds don't really do much to grow new plants with no ground preparation. Birds and animals eat many of them. The other value the MSU folks covered, is that the mowed grasses and plant tops, return their minerals to the ground when you leave it lay on the pasture or lawn. So over an entire season, spring to fall, multiple mowings, you accumulate the value of an extra fertilizer application, at NO EXTRA COST to you. This is where if you hayed the ground, you lose the return of the minerals in that hay, doesn't go back into the soil. So I would count that as a double loss, in minerals and organic matter, when the hay would be hauled off. I do use Roundup along under my fences. They are electric, so any grasses or plants on the wire reduces the electric flow. Otherwise, things stay under control just fine with mowing. I use the brush hog right now, grass is so thick and heavy with water, the more powerful cutter works best. I use the finish mower later in the season, it cuts the grass finer, for quicker use by the plants and worms. Still cutting nothing shorter than 5 inches. If we don't get rain for growth, I don't mow. Plants roots don't get sunburned, stay plenty green, horses are all fat and slick, just being grazed. Calves and sheep also do fine on grass alone, when we have them. I think my pastures are as pretty, certainly productive, as the lovely photo agmantoo posted! I don't have big machinery, so went with the suggestions from MSU folks for improving things. Started with soil test, fertilizing, then the mowing. Soil test SHOWED I had plenty of Nitrogen in the soil, but had to add Lime and other things to allow plants to be able to use it. I get the soil tested every 3 years, and each time I have needed a change in what mix of fertilizer the land needed!! Things change often here with spreading bedding, TYPES of bedding, soil tests shows it. For my lesser cash investment, quicker time frame, the rewards are great. I didn't have 7 years to wait for good grass! Too many horses to feed! Price of hay is too high to be feeding it in summer, when you have pasture space available. I needed to fix what I had quickly. Your land should not be a money pit to eat up your funds. There are a number of ways to reach the good end of producing useful grazing or crops. Agmantoo gave some great suggestions. |
In my experience, you are going to have a difficult time finding a farmer who wants a short few year lease and is willing to invest a lot of money to improve your soil. On rented ground, it is more likely that your tenant will be pulling as much value from the soil as he can wrestle out of it.
All those cover crops cost money to plant, care for, and plow under. So what is the tenant's motivation to spend all that money on ground he doesn't own and has to give back in a few years? |
Thanks all of you for your input, This has given me a lot to think about. The original advice I had came from the Real Estate agent, who made it sound so easy..but I must remember where his $$$ comes from.
I will reread the rotational grazing sticky while I am waiting for the deal to close. After it closes I will get the soil tested. By that time I will have a better plan put together to throw out for review. I will have better pictures as well Again I appreciate all of your advice. DreamFarm |
Well, everyone has a system so I suppose I'll tell you what I've done on the drier parts of my bad pasture.
Sunflowers. They'll grow in some pretty hard soil and have a taproot much like a tree. This means they reach down deep and pull nutrients up to grow. They've done a really decent job of breaking up the sub soil in the areas I've planted them. When I harvest them it's only been in small areas so we just hand harvested. Cut off the head by hand, we save some and use most as bird feed. Then brush-hog the stalks to add organic material. We also leave the grass to grow up with them. No playing or tilling as we're trying to build a thin layer of nice topsoil. Two seasons of sunflowers seems to be able to break up the toughest patches we have. I'm in the PNW so I do lose topsoil during the wet season if the grass is short or the pasture is sloped. For this reason we tend to brush-hog in late spring instead of fall. |
Where in PNW? I am west of Spokane and north of Deer Park. Would you leave the stalk all winter and brush-hog in the late spring?
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I live on the west side in the constant rain. I honestly don't know enough about your area to know if it's worth waiting there.
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We live between Deer Park and ID and we raise hay.
I would caution you about trying to do what works for someone in a different climate. Look at their suggestions and use those that will work, if you try to follow a plan word for word that works in another climate you will be in trouble. I would call the extension office and have whoever is responsible for pasture/hay or range management come and look at your place. I would drive around the area and look for a farm that's in good condition and stop and talk to the neighbor about what he does. Tell him upfront you don't have experience--he'll get that in the first couple of minutes. You will get much more help if you listen and ask questions, than if you try to pretend you know how to accomplish what you want done. If you don't get help at the first place, try again. You said lack of water will not be a problem for you. Do you plan to irrigate? Do you have water rights?? If you are not planning to irrigate water will be a concern, especially since you think the previous owner's hay field did not get enough water. I can't tell much from the picture but it does look like the hill might be dry and that could be a problem for you. We get less than 20 inches of rain in and average year. In dryer climates organic matter does not break down quickly so get local help returning the soil to it's optimum condition. |
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I was going to recommend the same thing as you did. So I will second it! It works here (and probably where you are in WV as well). |
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Thanks
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Hey when you get your range management walk around. Fill us in on what yyou found and what was suggested.
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I will. I am still waiting til closing. Then I can get to work and have a lot more details.
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UPDATE
________________________________________________ So I finally close on my first 20 acres in 5 days. I have about 15 usable acres of fenced pasture, that was farmed in wheat, turned to pasture and then overgrazed. The soil is pretty depleted. My husband wants to put some apple, cherry, and peach trees on the property. I would like to put a few cows on this land in spring and I am wondering what the best thing to do now is. I know I need to do these things:
I am thinking: will need to fence fruit trees so cattle/deer dont eat them- does anyone know if these trees will be unhealthy for cattle? might have someone mow and leave everything behind might have some sawdust dumped on the land This is heavy clay soil and I am hoping that I can get the things done before it snows ( late november) so that in spring I will have grass. Any thoughts on this? I know I have discussed this earlier but now I finally have the land. By the way I am out of state. |
You really need to evaluate what you have in your pasture. Being overgrazed one year is not a killer. Constant overgrazing will result in weeds and invader grasses. You may need to overseed or you might not, to make that decision you need to know whatt you are starting with.
Yep you better fence off the trees, cattle are liable to eat the leaves, break the limbs ect. Cherry leaves can be toxic. |
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