Mary

I don't know of any reputable breeder who would have expected you to take an injured animal or pay for injuries to an animal you hadn't taken possession of.

Thanks, that means a lot to me, even though I think we are going to end up paying half on the vet bill. I told DH I'd give our friend a check, but in exchange he had to let me have my say!

And, he's going to have to produce the itemized bill.

And, sadly, it's going to be hard to look at him the same way again.

If the gash cost $600 to repair will she be any good in the future? What all did she tear?
Can she be bred? Carry a calf? If you have any plans at all of taking this animal- I would not! I would talk to the DVM that she was taken to and find out the extent of the damage.

lets go with what you wrote but buyer did not rip jeans

at the next door neighbor yard sale you buy the jeans and hand him the money just as the seller was putting the jeans in a bag HE dropped them into a mud puddle and lays the muddy jeans on another tables says nothing and you leave not saying nothing ...next day he shows up at your door with different pair of jeans and a cleaning bill..

WILL YOU PAY THE BILL ?

As I understand it, he intends to bring us a different animal, not this one. I'm not sure, but DH thinks the price is so high because they left the animal at the vet several days. I don't know why they would have done that. We are asking to see an itemized bill.

The new owners were a part of the loading process, in both the cattle and the used jeans. Both were already purchased. Both the sellers claim the buyer was at least partly (perhaps fully) at fault.

Personally, I'd drop $100 to get a legal opinion on this whole thing. Wouldn't help with the friendship part, but sounds like that's about had it anyway.

I am happy for the discussion on this subject because we did something similar a few months ago. We bought a bull from my sister's neighbor. Paid for him upfront and they were going to deliver him to my sisters (across the street) the next day. They delivered him, but apparently it was too close to his old home so he busted down the fence and went back. They kept him for us for a month so we could get our fences built and brought to our place 10 miles away. Thankfully he wasnt injured while in their care after we paid for him, and we were grateful that they were willing to keep him until we were ready - but based on this discussion we probably wont be doing that again.

Friend or no friend, tell it like you saw it.

I'll tell you what I'd do. I'd tell him to keep his heifer and call it even. No more business will be conducted between you after. If he didn't like that, to bad as he's the one that sent it to the vet without talking to me first. $600 vet bill for a $500 cow? No dice, I'd have made hamburger first and cut my losses.

Yep, I like this. Good idea.

Yes it was a "sight unseen" sale, but a sale none the less. Perhaps from the sellers point of view the new owners had a greater part in the damage. If the new owners had loaded the cattle themselves and a calf stuck himself on a T post, who's calf is it? If the seller had been loading the calf, without the buyer around, and it stuck himself on a T post, it is the problem of the seller.
I think where it gets sticky is who's fault is it the calf jumped the wall? The seller thinks the new owner shouldn't have been there and spooked the calf. The new owner feels blameless because he was just standing there.
Then, in an attempt to be nice, the seller offers to give you another calf and if the buyer will split the Vet costs, he'll take the risks involved with it healing properly. Rather than stick you with the Vet bill on YOUR calf and the trouble down the road if it fails to heal, he gives up an un-injured calf and offers to pay half theVet bill on an injury you caused.

To some a sale is complete when the animal enters your trailer. To me the sale is complete when money changes hands.

No real solution here, just a learning session for all. Things can go sideways in a hurry. Always keep it simple and when possible, get it in writing.

I've gotten myself in all sorts of deals that can cause hard feelings. I have discovered that rationalization is a powerful human emotion. We can see why we are right, but not understand the viewpoint of others.
My son needed a bull, but his wife's car broke down, $2000 repair. My neighbor needed a bull, but not until next spring. I found a superior bull that a guy was sending to slaughter because he was keeping so many of his daughters. To help my son, I offered to haul the bull, 400 miles round trip, my son could use the bull for 6 weeks and then my neighbor would have the bull. The neighbor agreed to buy the bull, sight unseen and wait two months to receive the bull, if I'd haul his old bull to the Auction 120 miles away. It all went smoothly. But if the bull would have died, what then? If the bull wasn't able to breed any cows? My fault? All to help my son get his cows bred. All sorts of things can happen.
Later, I offered to buy my son 6 feeder pigs if i could get one raised and butchered. OK. But then a few weeks later the pigs got snotty noses and two died. I think they got cold, he thinks I bought sick pigs. He had buyers lined up to take them after butcher, so he was short on pigs. Then after raising the 4, discovered one had a nut and the meat had some boar taint. Guess who gets that pig? What's fair? The guy that sold the feeders offered to replace it with a free one, but there is the investment involved, plus my son doesn't want pigs from that guy ever again. How do you resolve it?

When I was new at farming, a neighbor had a beautiful clover field, 10 acres. I needed hay and asked about it. He said he'd bale it for me for $600. I asked how much hay it would make. He said he thought 3 tons to the acre. 30 tons for $600 was a sweet deal and I took it. But, I only got 9 tons. So, I mailed him a check for $300, well over what I expected to pay per ton. But he expected $600 because that is what we had agreed to. He hadn't promised any amount beyond 10 acres and I got 10 acres. All he got was the $300 and it spoiled a neighbor relationship. He had farmed his whole life and knew there wasn't 30 tons in that field. But I welched on the deal.

You have admitted the cattle are yours by reason of payment in advance (two weeks) for cattle you purchased sight unseen. You did not clarify with the friend or the son at the moment the accident happened, that the heifer was going to vet or be replaced.

Accidents happen with cattle, hogs, horses, and once you pay for an animal, the animal is yours. Regardless of whether you pick it up at the moment of payment or wait six months to pick it up, the animal is still yours. Unless the seller assumed responsibility for the delivery of the animals, the seller was helping you and your husband load your cattle into your trailer. One got injured during the process.

By admitting in your post that you have paid for the cattle in advance and that these are your cattle, I am sure that you already know that these are your cattle. I am pretty sure that he real heart of the matter is the vet bill for your heifer and the subsequent return to pick said heifer up or to accept 1/2 the vet bill and a replacement heifer.

Is that not the heart of the matter seeing as you have already admitted these are your cattle?

Since you had paid fr them in advance and asked them to board them for you until you picked them up, at that time they became yours. At that time, there was no "before they were loaded" con sideration. Those cows belonged to you and they were boarding them for you. Your cow got injured. I doubt they tried to injure the cow while helping you load your animals but it happened. Deal with it. You should have taken your animal and either taken it to the vet yourself, doctored it yourself, or hauled it to the slaughterhouse.

I have bought many bulls privately over the years. but from reputable breeders not a guy with 10-20 head of cows. The guy I have been buying from the last few years, I pick out a bull in Dec he delivers bulls in April. Anything happens to the bull in the meantime it will be replaced by him. This is standard practice with the breeders I know.
If I pulled into a breeders place that had a load out area that consisted of t=posts and a wire cattle panel I would turn around and leave. Poor facilities lead to injured animals and injured people. I would also assume if that is all the money they were willing to spend on a loadd out area they are probably not spending to buy quality foundation breeding stock.

I thought it was said that they paid for so many animals but not any particular ones , so it should have been ,so many (was it 4?) uninjured ones!

When we have sold animals we tell them at such and such a point as we go to let them out of their pen/pasture that the animals are now theirs and if anything happens from that point forward that it is their problem but we will work together to get the animals into their trailer the best we can. But it is their animal when the money passes hands. If someone paid us ahead of time though it would be a little different. It was THEIR actions that caused the animal to leap and get injured so IMO they should cover the vet bill and you get the cow as you paid for it. YOu paid for a healthy animal and it should be given to you in the condition as you paid for it. If they have other ones for sale they should give you a different one and suck up the bill themselves. It is not your fault the animals were injured.

I think part of the issue is the animals you received are not up to par with what you expected. If they were great top notch animals in great condition that your tune would be a little different. Instead you are terribly disappointed in even the healthy ones which is making it harder to even want anything to do with the vet bill on the 4th. If it was me i would NOT pay the Vet Bill but i'd tell them to deliver the heifer to me and if they don't they have failed on their end of the arrangement. MIght find you are no longer friends after this but if they valued your friendship they would be doing what they could to make things right with you and they do not appear to be doing so

I was wrong, look at my post above and disregard. I think Haypoint has the better answer and I agree with him. What.... can't I change my mind?:smack

Hmm when I bought a bull it came with delivery (over 120 miles away) and a 1 year money back guarantee. If I didn't like the bull within that year I could return it and get my money back.

Bull got an abscess after a couple of months and it took $360 in vet bills to fix - I kept the bull but there for a while I was wondering if I did the right thing. I did - the bull has thrown some beautiful calves and has is very docile and cooperative.

My point however that from a very reputable place you get things like the money back guarantee.

Not to be disrespectful... but...

You made some mistakes.

First, never buy unseen. Second, never pay in full in advance.

We've been around cattle, ranches, etc all our lives. When you agree to buy the terms can vary a great deal from one seller to the next. To do this correctly, you should have gone and looked at the cattle and picked out the ones you wanted to buy, if you still wanted them.You should have put down a deposit and paid the remainder at the time you trailer the animals.

Ordinarily, the cattle belong to the seller until loaded. But, that is void when full payment is made in advance. At the time full payment is made, the animals are yours. It's your fault you didn't specify which animals.

Also, you paid for healthy animals. They were healthy when money changed hands... It does NOT matter what happened during the first two weeks you owned the cattle, whether they stepped in a hole and broke a leg, or whether they were injured loading. They were already your property.

We have sold animals from time to time to hobby farmers that had to make installment payments. We are very clear upfront. When they make the first payment, THEY have picked out the animal. If they are making installments, the animal becomes their animal when they make that first payment. If anything happens to the animal before they take delivery, any resulting expenses are their responsibility. However, we do most of our own vet work. To us, the installment method is no different than full payment in advance.

If someone gives us a deposit, the animal is still ours until the remainder is paid and we are responsible for any bills associated. Then.... the in/out of the trailer rules apply.

Hobby farmers are sometimes a little uneducated on the way old farm/ranch families have always conducted business. They also sometimes seem not to use a lot of common sense.

Common sense says NOT to buy something unseen... but if you must;
Common sense says NOT to pay in full for something you didn't look at. Common sense says not to treat a business arrangement with family or friend any differently than you would with a stranger.

Before you make any more deals, please think it through and use a little common sense. If you have any doubts, either don't do it, or talk to others and get advice...

Good luck.

To me, if the paying in advance specified specific animals (i.e. by registration number or tattoos) then it is more of the "that is your animal that we are boarding for free by agreement to hold onto them for a bit". If the purchase agreement was of the "purchase of x number of heifers/cows/bulls", then until the x number of animals are loaded on your trailer, they are the sellers.

If I presold (and we have done this before) a specific animal, and while I was holding onto the animal as agreed something happened to it, then I would need to provide a replacement animal of similar quality/gender or refund your money. Once the animal gets on the trailer, and goes to your place, what happens to it is out of my control.

If I presold a healthy animal(s), and was holding them as agreed until pickup, if something would happen prior to pickup to the animal(s) that I had in mind that I was selling but they were not specifically identifiable, then I would need to replace the animal(s) and/or refund money accordingly. If I agree to sell you 5 healthy animals out of my 20 healthy animals, and something happens to some, I can't say oh well the ones you were buying died or were injured, tough luck. I would have to deliver the agreed upon number of animals, and if I couldn't I would need to pay you back some.

On a similar vein, I can't sit there and tell you that a couple of yours got sick or injured and expect you to pay a vet bill, unless it had to do with the nature of a specific animal that was identified in the presale contract or agreement. To me, the situation with a non-specifically identified animal being injured during the loading process (with what sounds like a sub-adequate handling set-up) from my property to your property (a.k.a. your trailer), that would be on me to replace the injured by my negligence animal. For a specifically identified animal, injured by my negligence during loading, that should be an immediate option to let the buyer out of the deal for that animal or if an equivalent animal is available and buyer is amenable to a substitution. Either way, it would be my vet bill to pay....unless the buyer was somehow responsible in causing the injury to the animal.

Okay, so we still don't have a final bill on the heifer that the sellers ran, with their own hands on it, up over the uncapped t-post. Seems the vet still has not released it from his care.:huh:

DH and I are thinking maybe it would be fair to tell him to keep the heifer and the bill, since he is the one who injured it, and the one who has left it in the care of the vet for going on two weeks now.

Our loss would be what we paid for an animal we didn't get. His loss would be the bill he is still running up on that animal.

What do y'all think? If we are willing to take the loss on not getting anything for our money, will that make it fair in his eyes? Looking particularly from those of you who think if we bought livestock together, the dead ones should be mine, since this seems to be the mindset we are dealing with.

I have been reading this post, so many completely different but valid points. I have pre-ordered and paid for lumber at Lowes, went to pick it up, not liked a couple of the boards and had them swapped out. Also have had them drop a bag of cement loading, and just replace it, not exactly the same, but particularily if you "bought" them in advance to help them out, they were not boarding them as a favor to you but more so because they needed the money and you didn't have the space at the time which is kinda of what I am reading between the lines (maybe I am wrong) sounds like they should just give you a healthy cow...

Obviously, that's what we thought, but not what they thought.:huh:

If I remember right you did not even ok the cow going to the vet?

No, we didn't. We left assuming he'd just refund the money on that cow. Bad assumption.

I would not tell him to keep my money. I would expect a sound uninjured animal or my money back. That is me, others might feel different, you might feel different. To me telling him to keep the money and not supply an animal, says yes it was your fault or that you were in the wrong. I would guess your friendship has ended even if neither want that. I would guess that however this plays out one party is going to think that they were wronged.

Are they still offering to replace her with the other heifer? I would be curious to know where you would stand legally on this issue. Have any lawyer friends?

I understand what everyone has posted here but if the guy had done what I and many others here consider appropriate he would have addressed the issue immediately with you and offered your money back or a replacement cow. His foolishness caused the accident. But for myself, even if I hadn't caused the accident I would not expect you to take the injured cow or pay for her vet care. The vet part is just crazy. If she were injured that badly she should've just been put down. I can only imagine what the bill will be. Unfortunately it sounds like the guy just doesn't have much common sense.

There is a confrontation coming here for sure and you might want to get legal advice before going into it if you think the guy might try to sue you.

How are the other cows from the group doing?

Besides evidently having mange, and being runts, they are fine. They are coming up to feed when I call them.

The "friend" had mentioned bringing us a different calf, which we had thought was his way of making good. But he never brought the calf and evidently now thinks we have wronged him by "sticking him with" the vet bill. DH and I are ready to cut our losses. We really do not want another of his animals. So we are about ready to let him just keep it, along with the bill he has run up. I'm afraid he will still not be happy. Neither will we. But the sooner this is resolved one way or the other, the better.

Believe me, we will not be "admitting we were wrong." This deal will come with a piece of my mind. He's already gotten a bit of my husband's.

I agree and with friends like that who needs enemies!?

The heifer is STILL at the vets?!!!

Unbelievable.

What do you mean the new cows have mange?
Maybe they just have mites?

I am sorry to hear that this is still going on.


I guess it does provide a good lesson to everyone here who reads the story.
I am just sorry the whole thing happened.

The Wagyu Drama, 2012!

Hang in there.

Like I said on page two of this thread, I'd tell him to keep the heifer and my money and call it even. 3 weeks at the vet? I don't think I've ever seen a cow worth that much to me. This fella must be pretty darned proud of this heifer to put that kind of money into it. Of course he thinks it's your money so maybe he just doesn't care.

As far as I can tell, it's worth about as much as any other slaughter animal. Less maybe being it's not a common type, small frame, and injured.

Call it a business lesson that cost you 500 bucks. You learned several things here.

1. Settle immediately. If something happens to an animal on load out (or even before) settle up NOW.

2. This isn't a person you want to do business with again. Not because you guys have a disagreement so much as he's willing to send a cow to the vet for 3 weeks on what he thinks is your dime.

3. Settle up immediately. This one bares repeating. If something goes wrong, or the situation changes settle up. At the very least decide on a course of action, in detail, before you leave.

I am guessing it is mange, I don't really know what it is. But they have small patches of gray skin showing. One heifer has it all around one eye, and several of them have smaller patches mostly near the tops of their legs.

When we brought them home, we put them in with my two heifers, and mine have not shown any signs of this. I moved mine to a different field over the weekend. I checked them this morning and they still look good.

I took a couple of pictures of it the other day. I'll post them later when I can get DD to put them on the computer for me. Maybe it will be more obvious to someone else what it is.

I recommend a bill of sale, even amongst friends. Tell them it's for tax purposes, most people accept that. (And you should have a bill of sale for tax purposes and proof of ownership anyhow.)

I write on the bill of sale receipts as I give or get them. For example, when I picked up my tractor, it took two trips because not all implements would fit on the tractor. I put on the bill of sale, the deposit paid, and remainder due at pick-up of remaining items. Last thing on the bill of sale should be "paid in full"

3 weeks at the vet? I'm having a hard time beliveing the animal is at the vet. Arround here, a vet is rarley called out for a cow,most farmers do their own work because there are so few vets that do cows. Most farmers would never spend that kind of $ on a cow. A wounded cow like that would get a emergency appointment for the butcher-we've had to do it because a bull of ours "snapped". 3 weeks at a vet would be in the thousands.

This is the same friend who lost a cow last year because he wouldn't call the vet when she went down just before calving. His wife asked me about her after she'd already been down a few days. So, yes, I am also very baffled about what is going on.

From a breeder's standpoint, reputation is everything and it takes thousands of dollars in PR to get rid of the stink of one bad sale so I would have offered a buyer a replacement on the spot.

You bought cows sight unseen, they became yours at that second. If he would have sold them to another person, he’d be a crook, they belong to you. A week or so later, while loading your cattle, one of your cows got injured, requiring $600 of Vet work. The farmer offered to buy back the injured cow and give you an uninjured cow, plus pay half of the Vet bill for your cow. It was your cow at the time of the accident.

For those that feel the farmer should "eat" the $600 Vet bill on your cow, I need to ask where does the farmer's responsibility end? I think it ends when you paid for them and they became yours. Others believe the farmer must warranty them until they get on your trailer. Perhaps others feel the farmer should provide a 30 day warranty? Perhaps a lifetime guarantee?
I’ve seen newbies around cattle. Just talking and/or moving your arms around will spook most cattle. Never stand where they have to move towards a stranger. If you don’t have much cattle moving experience, you won’t see how your actions could have caused the cow to jump the crappy makeshift loading barrier. Look at this as the farmer sees it: Your husband spooked his own cow and it needed medical attention. You communicated poorly by not writing out a receipt when the cows were bought. He communicated poorly by getting your cow medical attention without a medical permission slip.

Sounds like ringworm. It will clear up on it's own.