keeping a bull....tell me what to expect?
 

Here's my current plan. I am getting a pair of Dexter cattle. They are both registered. I am getting the heifer for $600 and the bull for free. They will be between 3 months and 6 months of age.....not sure which ones I am getting until the DNA testing comes back and that is the range of ages of the calves she has. I don't want to keep the bull forever but if I keep him just until the heifer is old enough to breed (12 to 14 months), would that be a terribly bad idea? I have several different possible scenarios worked out....please tell me which is the best idea.

1. keep the bull calf and heifer calf separate from the start, each with sheep for companionship. Once the heifer is old enough to breed, put them together until I am sure she has settled then butcher the bull.

2. get a 6 month old heifer (much harder to tame than a young one though) and a 3 month old bull and just let them stay together. Hopefully by the time the bull is old enough to breed, the heifer will be old enough. Then butcher the bull.

3. just castrate the bull from the start and transport the heifer for breeding (stud within a 2 hour drive is $200). The biggest problem with this idea (other than the cost of the stud) is that I am afraid I'll get attached to the steer since he will be safe to handle. I won't get attached to a bull.

4. other ideas?

I really need to get both animals, especially since the bull calf is free. I want the heifer to be VERY tame since I plan to use her for a milk cow later and also want to be able to tether her out. Thanks!

Dexter bulls are supposed to be very laid back and easy going. The one we had was sweet enough, but you couldn't keep him in for nothing and for being so short, there wasn't a fence that boy couldn't jump. We sold him. For me, it's just easier to keep a bull around because there is no bulls available and the vet here won't AI just a few cows. But if I had one available, I probably wouldn't keep one just because you need him one to two times a year and the rest of the time you're feeding him for standing out there looking pretty and if there's no girls around, sometimes bulls can get mighty restless.

Buy the Dexter heifer now. Work with her. In the fall, buy an angus steer. That is when most beef farmers sell their calves.

Find someone to do AI or learn how to yourself. When she's old enough to breed, have her bred AI right on your farm with a bull superior to the one down the road.

Keep the angus for a year on hay and pasture, grain for 6 weeks and butcher. You may sell a half to recoup your initial investment.

I'm thinking a Dexter bull or steer will cost more per pound than a beefer Angus, the Angus will outgrow the Dexter and it matters little what breed if you'll butcher it anyway.

One of the reason I want the Dexter for the freezer is his smaller size. I have no need for amount of beef a regular beef breed can produce. A Dexter will give me half that beef, can be raised on much less land and can be raised mostly on pasture. Plus this bull calf is free.....I'd have to pay a good bit for a beef calf. So not getting that calf isn't an option in my eyes. It's just a matter of what to do with him. I won't keep him around for repeat breedings.....I just wonder if he will still be managable at 12 months or so of age when the heifer is old enough to breed. After that, he will go to the freezer.

You could probably keep them together for awhile. :) The woman we bought our Dexter bull from raises a lot of Dexters and keeps them all together. Keep him for breeding one time and then butcher him. It would seem a waste, IMO, to steer him out, raise him all that time and then pay again to breed to another bull, but that's just my view on it. I agree, I wouldn't turn down free!

What is the purpose for the dna testing all of your animals are going to be freezer beef correct??

Wide range of temperment with bulls/cows/heifers/steers within each breed. As noted above a Dexter can display behaviour far from the docile nature one might dream about.

OMHO, there is no reason to keep a bull on the property for one breeding. Bulls tend to put on more weight in the front and less in the back. Your most valuable cuts are in the back. So that single breeding will be costly on two levels, even if he is "manageable".

Many "tame" bulls have killed people.

The fact that he will be free is an important fact to concider. Take all the free beef you can get, just leave his sack at the gate.

SteveO, DNA testing is necessary because she has more than one bull. The testing will establish parentage so I can get them both registered.....necessary if I want to register the offspring. The heifer will not be going to the freezer, just the bull.

I've been wrestling with this same decision myself. I have chosen Dexters as what breed of cow my family will be getting for a number of reasons including temperment. I am also contemplating keeping a bull. I am concerned with sustainability and self reliance. I know it's a larger commitment and a greater liability keeping a bull on my property but for _my_ purposes I think it will be the way to go.

Of course the first incident of untoward aggression towards any human and he'll be next on the list to 'meat' his end.

I think the question of what to do with the little boy is answered by what you long and short term goals are. For me, if the bloodlines are right and I was able to see other intact males related to him and was pleased by their temperment I'd keep him seperate and keep him for breeding--- otherwise I'd snip, snip and raise him for beef.

I would keep the bull for two breedings then freezer if mean. He will be big enough to butcher by then and won't be mean yet if he even would be. The stud fee is more costly then the amount of beef he would gain as a steer.

thanks...that's kind of what I was thinking. I know the beef may not be as tender as if he was steered young, but since I mostly want roasts and ground anyway, that's not a concern for me. I can always play this by ear too. If I find he is becoming a problem or unmanageable, I can alway re-think the plan and send him to the butcher early, or get him castrated.

Not to change the subject but one quick question.
If the plan is to butcher an animal that is not as large as normal cattle why not use a normal steer and butcher at an earlier age?

Because the bones are smaller in Dexters. They usually yield a higher percentage in meat than most beef breeds (55% or better). A young beef steer would have much larger bones than an older dexter bull or steer.

get the bull and treat him like a bull -ie. let him know whos boss (kind yet firm)and don't trust him with your back turned this holds true with all males, Bucks ,roosters,just don't take any chances .when a cow -hefier(Yours or Your neabours) is in season a wire fence is not to much of an obstacule to a single minded bull why keep them separated unless you want to wait till shes older befor the first breeding they like to be with there own kind.A young bull can be good beef but a little tougher just get your premiem cuts and more burger. a milk cow that is broke to lead & tie is a joy just do it while she is very young if you brush her and handle her often you save lots of trouble at milking time still a stall that she is used to going into to eat her grain ration that is rigged up for milking and kick preventtion makes the breaking job go easy .Do you have a good loading shoute to get the bull in your trailor or truck ,this is when there stubren side shows up even if you already have them trained to follow a bucket of sweet feed .

Well some thoughts are, if you get a young bull calf I would separate them from the time he is 6 months old, he could be fertile at that age and you don't want that heifer bred young. They will both need company, your sheep should be fine.
If the owner is getting genotypes done, maybe ask them to get Chondro and pha done also, you certainly should know that your bull is free of pha.
If you take the bull calf and then steer him, you can keep both animals together. Use the bull close to you to breed the heifer, then when the heifer calves at 2, butcher the steer, she will have her calf for company.
Good luck in your decisions, I'm sure you will love the breed.

Carol K

When we got our girls it was hard to find AI up here. Cheaper and easier to buy a bull. He was a disaster because he wasn't use to human contact. Within a month he was butchered but on the plus side he managed to get one of the girls bred and the result is an awesome little bull calf who is now 6 months and we had good beef.

For the butchering, next time I would do all the round into ground just because I use so much. The steaks are nice to have, quicker to thaw than a roast. We've cut some into stew when needed. Everyone loved the steaks even though the bull was not finished on grain. He did not know what to do with it, just watched the girls eat the sweet feed when given. He wasn't hung very long less than a week.

In a perfect scenario we would have kept him to breed the girls and a second time.

Mine don't really eat that much hay. Generally a bale and a half a day for two cows one with 6 month calf. With the colder weather I have been giving 16% sweet feed to the nursing cow, a large coffee tin.

So what kind of pen would I need to keep this young bull in, if woven wire isn't enough? What will hold him?

Yes, as Carol K says, PHA testing is a must for both animals! Chondro should be done as well so that you don't breed carrier to carrier. If the breeder has already done this testing, be sure to request copies of the paperwork!

Before you pay a dime, you ought to read up on genetic information and the Buyer's checklist. www.dextercattle.org

I'm sure ours was the exception, but what he ended up having to be behind was pipe panels WITH hot wire on the inside of that or he'd jump the pipe panels and that was WITH cows in with him. He was such a pain! LOL

Our other bull stays behind woven wire fence with just a strand of barb wire around the top and never gives us any trouble. All depends on the bull I guess. There are other people around here with Dexters and they all just keep their bulls behind woven wire or barb wire. I think ours was just exceptionally determined to go on unauthorized field trips.

I'd probably start out, since he's a calf, putting him in the pasture with your heifer and if he starts being a pain, run a hot wire and/or have pipe panels ready for him to make a small bull pen.

Get the bull and keep him a bull . Make sure he is dehorned and put a ring in his nose at about 4-6 months old , halter break him when young , dont treat him like a pet . starting early carry a 4 foot piece of 3/4 inch plastic water pipe in the lot/ pasture with you . If he gets to rowdy or friendly smack his nose ring you have to let him know your the boss . If he gets too rowdy clip a lead rope with something heavy to the ring . I have a 4-5 year old jersey bull that weighs 1500 lb and you can do whatever you want with him he will literally follow you like a dog . Be mindful of the bull but dont be afraid

I was able to keep a Dexter bull behind field fence with a hot wire on the inside. He had a nice calm temperament. But I never had to separate him from a heifer in heat like you'll be doing. And even quiet bulls like to knock things around with their heads. Really rough on feeders and waterers. Mine liked to fight the water trough. It made quite a mess.

All excellent advise. I use hot wire here on all of my pastures to keep my Anatolian Shepherds respectful of fences and to help with predators. Adding an extra strand at the cattle's nose height will be very easy.

KyCrawler, I especially appreciate your bull handling tips. I think there is a fine line between being halter broken and being tame. I do plan to treat the heifer like a pet because I want to milk her and also tie her out but the bull calf won't get the same attention. I will do exactly as you suggest. And I do plan to dehorn him using the heavy band method I have seen many people mention. I just need to locate someone who has that kind of bander for rent.

I have the $40 branding iron style dehorner that i mail ordered from the tractor supply website . They work excellent i burn about 175-200 holstien and jersey calves a year . Your calves may be to large to use this on . If you go that route use a cheap pair of clippers to remove the hair around the horn base . I just pin them against a fence panel shave and then burn . You will need a strong person or 2 to hold the calf to get a good burn . I would burn the heifers horns also while she is young much easier to do it now than later I have tipped a few of my own cows horns with a keystone dehorner and it is now for the squeamish . Burning is my much preferred method .

Also dont count on hot wire for a bull . I HAD a 1800 lb angus bull who would walk up to a wood 6 inch post lean push a shoulder on it and snap them off at the ground . He would then turn around and sit on the fence 48 inch field fence with 2 strands of barb with electric squash it down and then walk through the hole

I kept bulls a couple times and decided never again, based on the above. Bulls are born to fight, and if they don't have anybody to beat up on, they'll go after whatever. I forgot and left a wheelbarrow in the pasture one day and returned to find it demolished. Or them beating up on fences.

Do you have any dairies around? I found a young fellow with a dairy nearby who's been very good doing my AI. I pay him more than he asked to keep him interested, which is still alot cheaper than a bull's damage and feed bill. And as mentioned, I can pick semen from the world's best.

On the other hand, you might want to keep him a bull just for the experience.

Where you buy your bull from makes a difference, some breeders are known for very docile bulls, that being said, never trust a bull, training is required, respect from bull and human alike is needed.

Carol K

Hopefully I won't have this bull around long enough for him to become really obnoxious. Dexters are known for having good temperaments and this breeder's cattle are all even tempered. Once my tentative selections are made (based on temperament, mom's udder, and parentage), I will get the breeder to send off more tail hairs to test the bull for PHA and Chondro. I plan to choose a tall bull calf and a shortie heifer but I know that's not 100%. The breeder did tell me that in the 8 years she has raised these cattle, she has never had any PHA or chondro issues so she does not routinely test for them....but will be happy to submit samples for me if I would like them tested. I think I'll get the heifer checked for A2 as well.

Our bull is nearly 10 and he likes to be scratched on his neck. But he does not like to be petted on the head. Going for the head is a sign of aggression to all bulls, no matter how docile, so avoid that movement. And don't let your older bull think you're a 1000 lb. round bale of hay either because I see ours toss it like a beach ball all the time if I don't set it down the way he likes it.:runforhills:

If he is well trained to the hot wire, there is nothing better except solid wood or steel fencing 5' high to keep him in place. Make sure your hot fence is really hot, that's all (ours makes me cry when I touch it). Right now because of our bulls age we limit the amount of pasture he has to run in, but we have him in with some open cows. He has stayed put for the past three months with just a single hot wire at about 30" high.

Handled properly, and out of good parents with good temperament, I see no reason why you can't keep him around until you get a couple of calves out of him.

That's good to know. I know I'll be able to get one calf out of him. Keeping him away from her until she's old enough to breed will be the only real challenge, but since he will be young then, it's not going to be too tough with my woven wire fences along with hot wire inside to keep him off the fences. I think after that first breeding, I may be able to get by with just letting them stay together. And I'll play it by ear after that. If he is respectful of me and fences, he can stick around. He will be dehorned for sure though.

DJ....no dairies around here. There are no large beef producers in this area either. Come to think of it, there are no cows at all within probably a few miles of me. That actually should help keep the bull happier, since he won't be picking up the scent of cows in season except for my own heifer.

My opinion is exactly the opposite from this.
There is no reason to keep him a bull. a bull will eat more in a month than what AI will cost.

Be mindful AND be afraid. I know several people that have been mauled or killed by a quiet bull. I wish they had been afraid so they wouldn't have gotten into a place that gave the bull an opportunity to crush them.

Not being able to escape the bull pen is one reason I thought about using fence that's got a space near the ground, so an adult could roll under the fence. So maybe use 3' field fence but install so the top is 4' high and there is a 12" gap at the bottom. Or I may make him a pen out of round-pen panels because they have a space at the bottom too. It would be easy to hot-wire it as well.

I will never trust a bull. I know that even though this is a small breed, he will still out-weigh me by a long way and I know what he could do if he wanted to.

since there are no cattle farms around here, having AI done may be impossible. I don't plan on feeding him past calf age. He will grow out on pasture and hay (if necessary). I may put the corn to him when he is nearing slaughter age. He won't cost much to feed but I still don't see keeping him long-term.

Sorry, but this is not good enough. Never having had any issues means the breeder has not had aborted or dead calves (or does not know if she did); it does not indicate if the animals carry PHA or Chondro. A breeder who does not routinely test her herd raises a red flag to me (unless she already knows the status of each and every animal in her herd). Testing and identifying carriers is important because it enables one to make appropriate breeding decisions for the animals. If you are not up to snuff on these genetic issues, I suggest that you read up on them and know what they mean:

http://www.dextercattle.org/genetics.htm

You might want to get in touch with the ADCA regional director for South Carolina (Charles Townson) and get some advice on selecting animals. His contact information is charles@beavertreefarm.com. Feel free to use my name if you want.

Thanks for your input. I have talked to Charles on the Dexter forum. I have also done a lot of reading up on PHA and Chondro and it does concern me. I do plan on getting them tested once I get them home. If the heifer tests positive for either of these two things and the bull does as well, then I will use Charles' bull for breeding and band my bull calf (his bull is negative for both). I will be choosing a shortie heifer and a long legged bull so even though that is no indicator for PHA and not even a real thorough indicator of chondro, it's the best I can do for now.

This breeder is selling the heifers for quite a bit less than what most folks are selling them for around here and is giving me the bull calf for free, so red flags or not....it's a good deal. In the ideal world I'd love to have them tested prior to getting them but that will mean several trips to the farm.....one to make my selections and then again to pick them up (after testing). This breeder is a good distance away so I'd rather not make two trips if possible.

If your bull is good breeding stock, depending on the Dexter population in your area, you might be able to rent him out to people like yourself, who only have one or two cows they need to have bred. Naturally, he'd have to have a good temperament and be halter broken, but it's totally doable. I rented a bull this past fall. It turns out he wasn't quite up to the job, and I wanted to rent his Dad instead, but he was booked all through the winter, 45 days at each place, $75 per cow, and another $125 per calf if they want registration application papers for it. Seems like a really good way to have someone else raise your beef for you, and it would be doing a service for other small farmers in your area. And Dexter bulls do make fabulous beef. I've eaten several, purely grass raised, and they were all really tasty.

That's a great idea. But since this area isn't really strong on cattle, I am not sure how many people would be interested. I guess it's certainly worth exploring though. thanks!

There is a little more to renting out a bull than having him halter broke or with a nose ring. Vaccinations and health testing need to be regularly performed on the bull plus on the cows you expect to service. You don't want your bull coming into contact with a "Typhoid Mary" and subsequently passing it on to your cows or other people's cows.

very true....and another concern is that the farm have adequate fencing so they don't lose my bull. I am not sure how comfortable I'd feel leaving a valuable animal at someone else's house and trusting them to keep him safe.

Yes, the other aspect is injury or loss. You need a well written contract in the event anything happens. We're currently in a lawsuit over a yearling Highland bull we leased (at a nominal fee for a past customer of one of our heifers) who broke himself in the process of trying to breed. Though he was going to be steered when he returned to us after a few months, he was to be returned in substantially the same condition as he arrived. We set a dollar value if he wasn't.

Well, frozen is not the same condition, and since he was less than half the size he otherwise would have been and hadn't been finished properly, the meat is less than ideal. Not to mention we weren't prepared for it and had to get another freezer to hold him, and so it just sits while we wait to resolve it.

Our Dexter bull has sired the current (and many time) national champion Dexter cow. There is no way anything other than his collected semen leaves our farm, or he is used on anything that puts him at risk.

Well, mine won't be a valuable show animal....he is destined for the freezer...but I would like to keep him safe and healthy until that time. I guess renting him out is not going to happen.

The contract I signed when I rented the bull said that I would return him in the same healthy condition or would pay his replacement cost of $2500. Some people are comfortable renting out bulls and some are not.

I personally would look the place over when I delivered him to see that fencing, feed, housing, and especially the current condition of the cows to be bred and the other animals on the place, were up to my standards. I would also make sure he was the only bull on the place, and I would put that in the contract. I would also drop by now and then to see how he was getting on.

I think you can make anything scary, like animals giving birth, for example, but for the vast majority of the time, it works out just fine. I mean, if someone had a nice bull available that you could rent, and you weren't getting a free bull calf, we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation, right? Of course, it's up to you. I just don't think it would be all that difficult to make it work out very nicely.