Opps Holstein over Hereford

InvalidID · #21 01/05/12, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ in WA

THis subject sounded familiar, and here's a thread on the subject of cows from this cross.
http://www.cattletoday.com/forum/vie...hp?f=5&t=73616

Guess it depends on what you're doing. As a beef cow, the extra milk can be a problem (scours, losing condition, etc). If you have use for the extra milk, and feed them well so they don't lose condition and can breed back, might be okay. You'd want to breed them to something that could throw high growth calves to utilize the extra milk. That usually is one of the continental breeds like Charolais, or Limousin, or something.

The guy that does my AI has a holstein dairy and an angus herd, and some angus/holstein crosses produce so much he has them in his milking string. But when combining two very different genetics, it's a crapshoot as to what you'll get in each cow. As haypoint said, they'd be not as good beef cows, and not as good dairy cows. There's a reason people don't breed their beef cows to make alot of milk.

THe best use would be to sell heifers as family cows people could milk, and breed to beef to get a good beef calf.

For me, the resulting cows would be too big. I'd rather have Jersey/beef crosses. The talk among most beef guys is that cows have gotten too big.

This is something I've been thinking on recently. I see these monster sized bulls that can only survive with a lot of supplemental feed all the time. For myself I want something that's good on grass and easy to handle. My former plan to just cut em loose and harvest as needed is looking less and less likely.

So something a bit smaller but still meaty enough to make a profit is what I'm looking for. Perhaps keeping the Holstein Hereford heifers and crossing them with a shorthorn beef? You'd loose a lot of the black I think, which might cost if you sell at a barn. That's the reason I don't have any Maine-Anjou, which I really like the looks of.

Ronney · #22 01/05/12, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oregon woodsmok

Ronney, a BWF here is half Hereford and 1/2 Angus. A half beef and half dairy calf isn't much wanted by anyone. They don't do either beef or milk as well as a pure calf.

Oregon, as I understand it, your Hereford/Angus crosses are Black Baldies. It took me a while to work out that these were not what we called BWF's which in NZ, Australia and the UK are the Hereford/Friesian cross. And don't underestimate the milk/meat production from the Hereford/Friesian cross. They are prolific milk producers and will easily produce over 20 litres a day and are capable of rearing 3 mothered on calves. Find me a pure bred Angus or Hereford that can do that. It is an eternal snotter for my Angus breeder friend that I can grow out cross bred calves as good as hers and fetch better money for them. It could be said that the BWF is the ideal dual-purpose cow.

The photo Invalid posted is a good example of a grass fed Hereford/Friesian cross - and she's only a heifer. In another year that heifer is going to be a big, chunky cow that will produce well both in terms of milk and meat. If put to an Angus bull her calves will be brilliant.

While there is always going to be a need for pure bred breeders, I often think that people need to get their heads out of that syndrome and get a bit of lateral thinking. The Jersey Islanders didn't import pure bred Herefords or Angus to eat. They ate their Jersey cattle, a much maligned dairy beef in the modern world. The fact is that they make darned fine eating and so do the crosses.

Cheers,
Ronnie

Gregg Alexander · #23 01/05/12, 07:57 AM

You did not state if these were grown cows or 1st calf heifers. How many did he bred? How long did he stay? Left a lot of questions. If they have had a calf before should have any more problems than normal. If heifers just have the Vet check the pelvic opening to see if the heifer has enough room to have a calf , regardless of who the bull is.

KSALguy · #24 01/05/12, 09:45 AM

we had two big Holstein Angus cross cows, they were HUGE, had nice big bags, produced awesome calfs when bred back to an Angus bull, were kept out at pasture with the rest of the herd and did just fine, we got these two from an Angus breeder that used them as recip cows, they were several years old and sence the rancher that used our electricity for his hot wire on the pasture next to us we were allowed to keep them with his beef herd to be serviced by his angus bull, we got several nice big calves of them before we moved to Alabama.

CCCC · #25 01/05/12, 09:53 AM

Thanks for sharing Karen L, very interesting.

DJ makes a good point.

My dad had a few of these as his thoughts from growing up on a dairy was that a good beef cow should have a little holstein in her, but the F1's he had milked too much. Usually some problems with mastitis and milk fever. Also they usually ended up with having only 2 or 3 good milking quarters with very large frames, but they always did raise the biggest calves. The 1/4 bloods did make some great cows.

haypoint · #26 01/05/12, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSALguy

we had two big Holstein Angus cross cows, they were HUGE, had nice big bags, produced awesome calfs when bred back to an Angus bull, were kept out at pasture with the rest of the herd and did just fine, we got these two from an Angus breeder that used them as recip cows, they were several years old and sence the rancher that used our electricity for his hot wire on the pasture next to us we were allowed to keep them with his beef herd to be serviced by his angus bull, we got several nice big calves of them before we moved to Alabama.

Since Holstein generally have large calves and Angus generally have small calves, An angus bull on a Holstein or Holstein cross is a safe calving plan. The important lesson here is that it isn't safe the other way around.

haypoint · #27 01/05/12, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCCC

Thanks for sharing Karen L, very interesting.

DJ makes a good point.

My dad had a few of these as his thoughts from growing up on a dairy was that a good beef cow should have a little holstein in her, but the F1's he had milked too much. Usually some problems with mastitis and milk fever. Also they usually ended up with having only 2 or 3 good milking quarters with very large frames, but they always did raise the biggest calves. The 1/4 bloods did make some great cows.

Did your dad get that bit of Holstein in his beef cows by bringing in a Holstein bull to use on Angus or Hereford cows? I suspect, if he was sucessful, he bred a Holstein cow with a Angus bull and then bred her offspring to a Angus bull. Or Hereford. The point is, and the focus of my concern with this posting is that crossing Hereford cows with Holstein bull is dangerous. The other way around isn't.

Mastitus and dead quarters isn't a breeding problem.

CCCC · #28 01/05/12, 12:07 PM

Got off topic of concerns, Sorry-just following up on other post.

The F1's came from holstein cows bred to angus bulls which will work better. Not sure of frame score on the hereford cows in question or average BW and age. Same would go for the holstein bull and BW EPD. If it was my cows I would have concerns on the size of calves, but the birthweight of the calf comes from 1/2 the cow and 1/2 the bull. Not just the bull.

InvalidID · #29 01/05/12, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg Alexander

You did not state if these were grown cows or 1st calf heifers. How many did he bred? How long did he stay? Left a lot of questions. If they have had a calf before should have any more problems than normal. If heifers just have the Vet check the pelvic opening to see if the heifer has enough room to have a calf , regardless of who the bull is.

It's a mix of heifers and cows. I believe the heifers are the offspring of of these particular cows if that makes a difference. None of them have ever had birthing problems before, but they've always been bred to other Herefords so...

No one knows for sure how long the bull was in with them yet. Both the owner of the bull and the owner of the cows went on a fishing trip and came back to find the bull in with the cows. Could be up to 2 days, could be a few hours. I'm told the bull looked 'lazy, tired, and had little interest in the girls' so these guys both figured he'd had plenty of time with them. I haven't done any breeding yet so I just assume these guys know what they are talking about.

Gregg Alexander · #30 01/05/12, 05:01 PM

In just 2 days the bull may not have bred but 1 or 2 of them. If they were mine , here's what I would do. Starting day one after the trip , heat check every morning and night, write down any cows that are in heat. Do this and you narrow down to the ones that might have been exposed to the bull. I would this for 45 days. Those if any that were bred , get a vet check on them and the result will be open or bred to the jumper bull. Was there a hereford bull in with the cows when the jumper bull got into the pasture? If yes , chances are they fought until one became the dominant. JMO

InvalidID · #31 01/05/12, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg Alexander

In just 2 days the bull may not have bred but 1 or 2 of them. If they were mine , here's what I would do. Starting day one after the trip , heat check every morning and night, write down any cows that are in heat. Do this and you narrow down to the ones that might have been exposed to the bull. I would this for 45 days. Those if any that were bred , get a vet check on them and the result will be open or bred to the jumper bull. Was there a hereford bull in with the cows when the jumper bull got into the pasture? If yes , chances are they fought until one became the dominant. JMO

No bull in with them. He breeds AI and had them separated for breeding in the near future.

haypoint · #32 01/05/12, 06:12 PM

OK, I think you mean the cows were all open. If he was soon to be breeding the whole bunch, he might have had them cycling together. If that’s the case, either none were bred or all were bred, depending on where the heat cycle was when the Holstein broke in.

Most of this makes no sense to me. If I had a herd of Herefords about to be bred AI and a dairy bull foiled my plans, I’d give them a shot and be done with it. Instead, he has taken the “Wait and see” approach?

tinknal · #33 01/05/12, 06:21 PM

When I worked in Montana a neighboring rancher had an interesting breeding scheme. His herd was all Brown Swiss/Angus cross. He would run Angus bulls for a couple of years, and Brown Swiss for a couple years. Of course all heifers were bred Angus. These were range cattle. Come weaning time the cows looked like warmed over death, but the calves were as big as the cows!

InvalidID · #34 01/05/12, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haypoint

OK, I think you mean the cows were all open. If he was soon to be breeding the whole bunch, he might have had them cycling together. If that’s the case, either none were bred or all were bred, depending on where the heat cycle was when the Holstein broke in.

Most of this makes no sense to me. If I had a herd of Herefords about to be bred AI and a dairy bull foiled my plans, I’d give them a shot and be done with it. Instead, he has taken the “Wait and see” approach?

Remember that I'm answering 2nd hand here. I haven't talked to the guy in a few days but last we spoke he was planning on letting it ride yeah. Between what he's read and what you guys have said here he's willing to take the risk and see if he can get some interesting heifers out of the batch.

I know he HAD a Hereford bull at one time. I thought he still had it but maybe not. Or maybe he wanted to bring in new blood? Honestly I'm not sure. I don't know all the particulars on how he runs his operation, though I do pick his brain fairly often for tips and tricks. That he's willing to take a chance doesn't surprise me that much though. One of the reasons we get along is because we're both 'outside the box' thinkers.

haypoint · #35 01/06/12, 11:53 AM

"birthweight of the calf comes from 1/2 the cow and 1/2 the bull. Not just the bull."

Ever try on a pair of pants that are between the size you wore in Middle School and the size you now wear? Too small is too small.

InvalidID · #36 01/06/12, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haypoint

"birthweight of the calf comes from 1/2 the cow and 1/2 the bull. Not just the bull."

Ever try on a pair of pants that are between the size you wore in Middle School and the size you now wear? Too small is too small.

Now that's funny right there!