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Jersey Bottle Calves
Are they really as cold natured as I hear? I have not had a great deal of luck with them but I keep reading that they are easy. I got them from a local farmer who swears they all had colostrum and mommas milk until they were 6 days old, when I got them. Any suggestions for a runny nose, eye boogers, and mild scours? I think the scours are getting better after some apple cider vinegar but the runny nose and eye boogers just started. Temperature is fine, eating fine (2 quarts mr a day) and some grain, he is about 2 weeks old now. Spunk is gone outta him.
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If they were on straight milk and are now getting milk replacer, that could account for the scours. I like to switch from milk to milk replacer gradually and have had little to no trouble with scours. Also, the two quarts of milk replacer a day doesn't sound like enough. Oou 100 lb. newborn holstein calves receive two quarts of milk replacer twice a day. When I have a smaller calf (maybe less than 85 lbs +/-) I will only give them three pint per feeding until they are started good and eating calf starter feed. I have found the scour quicker if they receive the two quarts each feeding. I would have calf starter and water in front of them so they get started on feed.
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I never feed MR for one thing, but if you don`t have your own cows it`s kinda hard to do. And I never feed any grain till they are at least two weeks old, I do however feed grass hay from the start and let them nibble at it. I always start my Jersey`s out on one quart twice a day for the first week then up it a little till they are getting two quarts twice a day at a month. If you get the scours, I would give two farm raised eggs in half the milk along with a pkg. of knox jello in each feeding till they improve. A runny nose is a glob of Vick`s Vapo Rub on your finger in each nostril, and I also make a garlic tincture with Vodka and give 10 cc oral for upper respiritory problems. never , never overfeed a jersey calf, it`s better they be a bit hungry than overfed. I don`t know why a jersey calf can run with it`s mother and not die from scours , but if a person fed a calf that much milk , it would die of scours for sure. > Thanks Marc
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Update: I talked with the vet yesterday and he thinks he has pneumonia and bacterial scours, but no culture because I did not have any with me ;). Hey gave me Sustain Bolus, Baytril, and Vitacharge. Right after the first meds, the calf cleared up real good but was refusing to drink any electrolytes. That was around 3 pm yesterday, around 230 am (yes I got up every 2 hours trying to get him to drink a little at a time) he started scouring again...Ive tried the eggs, apple cider vinegar, and baking soda in MR (not all in the same feeding). The apple cider vinegar worked the best, but not hes refusing to eat it. As far as how much MR he gets and the cold natured (doesnt do well in temps below 40) all of that came from the farmer I bought the bull calves from. He has around 120 milkers and all their calves, minus the bulls. The farmer did start the transition from milk to MR a day before I got him and he did not get scours until a week later...
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I suspected pneumonia with the runny nose and mattery eyes. I generally react to " the beginnings of scours" like I'd react to the beginnings of a house fire. Please read the thread about Sale Barn /bottle calves.
I've never tried vinegar or eggs. Would be interesting to ask your Vet if he'd recommend that. Saline solution helps replace the lost fluids and is just water, salt amd baking soda. I recall vinegar to be highly acidic and baking soda on the other end of the ph scale. Put them together and you get a reaction once used in fire extingushers. Calves can be tender and a warm heat light can help a healthy calf and save a sick one. |
If I read your original post correctly, you've had him about 8 days at your place, right? New bacterial environment, stress of new location, etc. I'd suggest you call the vet first thing in the morning with an update, a temperature reading, and any other vitals and get advice on how to proceed. Dehydration from scours and pneumonia = double whammy for this little calf!
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Farmer just called me, hes had several die and went looking into it. kids he hired to feed the calves were not washing the milk buckets. His wife normally looks over the hired kids but due to surgery is unable to watch them. He assumed they were doing their jobs until he walked into the feed barn today and saw the mess, put two and two together, and is reimbursing me for all my expenses due to bacteria. Vet said he has heard every wives tale out there and only believes them for what they are...hmmm.....He said i can try whatever i want because im probably fighting a loosing battle at this point.
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Well you call them what you want, but the old wives tales I put in practice saves calves lives. I also have never heard of ACV used in scours in calves, but I also have not lived all over these United States. When you use antibiotics alot on newborn calves it tears them up inside something nasty. But you all go ahead and use what you want, I will use what I have been taught by my family from a lifetime of farming, home remedies Work. You ask my Vet how much trouble I have, he knows what I do, and we share information. And yes Jersey calves cant handle very cold temps. , but most baby dairy calves can`t. > Marc
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that farmer that sold you those calves is worth his weight in gold...
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O Im all for what works. it makes sense to me to use more natural items, like eggs, than it does to fill them full of meds. I appreciate that farmer tremendously for letting me know what he found out on it. I didn't even know him before (found the calves through a newspaper ad) and for reimbursing expenses. He said I can have 2 to replace 2 others that died almost right away and if this one dies he will give me another one to replace him. I am pulling for him. He went real sluggish late last nigh and for most of the day, then he started perking up. He will only suck a bottle if I straddle him (im guessing bc it reminds him of momma) and he dislikes baking soda tremendously. He is eating one pint every two hours (alternating electrolytes with MR). Every time I add anything to his bottles he wont drink them... He was drinking out of a tray but I had to switch to bottles when he got sick. He got sick on Sunday and Im pretty tired about this point...(averaging 3 hrs sleep per night). I just wish I could get these darn scours under control and I think he would be just fine, even with the bacteria. No fever, still gets up, wags his tail when he eats, isnt running after me for food but is eating. I also heard that you shouldnt add baking soda to electrolytes. Has anyone else heard that?
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I don`t use baking soda in calves, I sure give you credit for trying to save that poor calf, most would have given up. And the dairy farmer you bought them from is sure a good guy, so very hard to find good help anymore. Now back to the neigh sayers on home remedies, for those of you that have never heard of or used eggs this is why it may or may not work. Back when farms were farms and raised all different kinds of animals, the layer hens use to run and pick threw the cattle pooh. The chicken would then lay the eggs and when you had a calf with scours you give that calf eggs from your hens. The yolk in the egg is the same thing as colostrum, the calf gets the antibodies from that yolk to help with the problem that gave it the scours. That hen picked up antibodies from running around your farm and eating all different kinds of things even bad bugs from the cow pooh, and the antibodies it builds up from eating them. Buying eggs from the store will not work at all, they do not run free to get the stuff from your farm, and eggs may not work on these calves either as they are not from your farm and your chicken or neighbors chickens eggs will not have the antibodies that you would get from these animals unless they were from your farm or nearby. So eggs may help and they may not, depends alot on the situation. Eggs are also a good energy source for the dehydrated calf, the knox jello I also use is to firm up the bowels. Garlic also is a natural antibiotic and works on any bacteria, I also have a few other tricks up my sleeve that I use but won`t go into detail here. Home remedies do work, better for some not so much for those that have no faith in them. I give you credit for trying your darndest for your calf, and calves are touchy in cold weather, moving them and changing their feed and everything. They are hard enough for some folks even when they don`t move them.To all of you, find an old timer that you think has alot of knowledge and see if he can teach you things about farming and raising livestock. Most old guys just love to share their secrets if they find a captive sole to listen. > Thanks For listening > Off my soap box. > Marc
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Baking soda:The natural mineral form is nahcolite. It is a component of the mineral natron and is found dissolved in many mineral springs. It is found in dissolved form in bile, where it serves to neutralize the acidity of the hydrochloric acid produced by the pancreas, and is excreted into the duodenum of the small intestine via the bile duct.
I won't eat an egg unless t is cooked for the same reason I won't subject a sick calf to it. Your Vet is correct. We voice our opinions on this site. Different people have different beliefs. Most of us are strangers to you. Talk to a sucessful farmer or your Vet. I just wish there was a Snopes for rural myths. |
try a shot of blackberry wine for the scours.
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I raise DAIRY HEIFERS FROM 3 DAYS OLD buy at a sale barn..I have had 80 sale barn calfs on milk at same time...i do that 3 times a year...
and I have a thing I have put together over the years.... yes I have tied everything i have heard or read about.... some times just walking in the pen and you turn three times around and leave...and the calf will get better doing nothing but that....and other times no matter what you do or what you give they die I have got up more than once at 3 am to check on calfs....give medicine...put in heated pen... some just get sick in same pen with 4 others no matter what you do .....some never get sick |
Haypoint, all vet. medicine was a hundred years ago was your so called rural myths, some are tried and true and some are just that, myths. I`m sure you have never used anything of the sort in your life, but I will stick with what works.> Marc
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Medicine has come a long way. We no longer use leaches or bore holes in skulls to relieve demons. That is why we call it practicing medicine. We try stuff and try to understand how it works. You've made your opinion known, fine, but if I can save just one calf because they had a scours bolus and a jug of electrolites on hand, that's the message I'm sticking with. But you won't catch me depending on avian antibodies from Kackle fruit saving my calves.:pound: |
well, he finally got up without help this morning!!! hes got a lot more energy and can stand without being so wobbly. i tried some bio mass and that has seemed 2 give him more strength. still has scours, but not as bad. at this point im just gonna continue feeding frequently, electrolytes, vitamins, and bio mass and hope he can keep on!! i know many ppl have told me 2 mix baking soda in with his electrolytes, but i never did bc the vet said it can cause ketosis. he said putting it in mr can help, but only if hes having nutritional scours, not bacterial.
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I wasn't kidding about the black berry wine or brandy for scours.
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Some on here think unconventional treatments are not considered to be medical practice here on HT, unless you have a DVM behind your name, you have no voice or experience. And if some think that they are urban myths, they have no merit to be on here. This will be the last I say about this subject right now, but some old myths do in fact work. I am not saying that modern medicine is not worthy of use, just the overuse of antibiotics in baby calves, their systems can`t handle the overuse of them. > Thanks Marc
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ok, he goes from having energy and getting up on his own to going down and needing help up. He still stands on his own. He has now had a shot of b complex and nuflor on top of the baytril and vitamins the other day. I still cant kick these darned scours. I have some blackberry wine (its my fav!!) so i will try that in a few minutes and see if this works. I hate giving him all these meds but he has lost all the weight the meds gave him back just in one day. grrr....im about tired of these scours already!! I picked up the two replacements and the farmer told me to call him if this one doesnt make it. he better though with as much time, money, and lost sleep i have in him!! any other suggestions for scours? at this point i think if i could get rid of those he would get better a lot faster.
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Have you got any chickens? Try the eggs, what do you have to lose? and an envelope of knox jello in with them. > Marc
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just wondering how much apple cider vinegar would you give a 120 pound calf and do you put in there mr or water
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It has been 8 days since you first posted about this calf. Did you ever get a fecal sample in for analysis? The results can probably target the correct antibiotic. Baytril and Nuflor are both prescription drugs. Sounds like this calf's getting whatever's available at the moment and is now having a relapse, scouring and losing weight. Might be time for the vet to actually examine this calf, don't you think? The two replacements may be the next ones to catch whatever it is.
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My luck with Replacers have killed more than saved. I bet if you put him back on whole milk he will get better sooner. I also give my calves bacvac99 I think thats what its called its for ecoli and other bacterial problems. I dont use replacer anymore because of problems and...yes I know some use it with no problems...but I personally have had such better luck with milk and if you can mix it half replacer and half whole milk. JMO
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i dont have access to whole milk other than store bought. would that work as well? i put half apple cider vinegar, half water and full dose of mr or electrolytes. that cleared it up 4 a day. but that was b4 i knew about the bacteria.so i think it works just not a long term fix 4 infections. i tried the blackberry wine today and so far so good. i hope it works! i dont have any chickens bc everyone kept telling me they were bad 2 have around cattle and the farm is 16 miles from my house so i like to keep my animals close so i dont have 2 drive 2 them, i only have 2 acres by my house. i tried the knox and it did seem 2 jell the poo but not fix it. he still went quite frequently and in large amounts.
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I will say that I will never raise bottle calves again(these two were my first, they are now 6 months old)unless i have real milk to feed them or it is a dire straights issue(loosing the cow etc). I believe that the MR is the worst thing you can give them and causes most of the problems. I weaned both of them at 2 months old and knock on wood I havent had a problem since. Antibiotics have their place but imo they also can compound the situation and make it worse. I try to avoid them as much as I can, they have to be the last resort imho especially for newborns |
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I don't believe in shooting up every animal on the place with every antibiotic in the world, but I do trust scientific knowledge. Remember a few months ago, when a few big egg factories had eColi in their eggs? The chickens had it and they pass it on through their eggs. This is more common in home flocks and since most eggs are cooked isn't a problem. Now I see well intentioned advice to give a raw egg to a calf with chronic diarrhea. If that egg contains eColi, you are simply adding to the problem. Sometimes, you try something and it doesn't help, but the calf survives anyway, and you begin to believe that it was a cure. That was common in the Middle ages. But today, there have been enough studies to disprove most of the myths. If most of the calves raised in this country are raised on Milk Replacer and they survive, how can you take the word of someone that raised 2 last year that MR is bad?:nono: So go ahead give those poor calves some vodka, some brandy, some eggs, some cider vinegar, cloves of garlic, a package of jello, some electrolytes, a few scours boluses and a heat light. But when they die, what are you going to blame it on?:shrug: If someone offers legal advice, but warns you away from Lawyers, beware. If someone offers construction advice, but warns you away from carpenters, beware. If someone offers livestock medical advice, but tells you not to ask the Vet first, beware. |
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I don't believe in shooting up every animal on the place with every antibiotic in the world, but I do trust scientific knowledge. Remember a few months ago, when a few big egg factories had eColi in their eggs? The chickens had it and they pass it on through their eggs. This is more common in home flocks and since most eggs are cooked isn't a problem. Now I see well intentioned advice to give a raw egg to a calf with chronic diarrhea. If that egg contains eColi, you are simply adding to the problem. Sometimes, you try something and it doesn't help, but the calf survives anyway, and you begin to believe that it was a cure. That was common in the Middle ages. But today, there have been enough studies to disprove most of the myths. If most of the calves raised in this country are raised on Milk Replacer and they survive, how can you take the word of someone that raised 2 last year that MR is bad?:nono: So go ahead give those poor calves some vodka, some brandy, some eggs, some cider vinegar, cloves of garlic, a package of jello, some electrolytes, a few scours boluses and a heat light. But when they die, what are you going to blame it on?:shrug: If someone offers legal advice, but warns you away from Lawyers, beware. If someone offers construction advice, but warns you away from carpenters, beware. If someone offers livestock medical advice, but tells you not to ask the Vet first, beware. |
[QUOTE=haypoint;5580028]I don't believe in shooting up every animal on the place with every antibiotic in the world, but I do trust scientific knowledge.
Remember a few months ago, when a few big egg factories had eColi in their eggs? The chickens had it and they pass it on through their eggs. This is more common in home flocks and since most eggs are cooked isn't a problem. QUOTE] Please tell me, do you have scientific evidence to prove your statement that ecoli is more common in home flocks? I'm just wondering. |
[QUOTE=scholtefamily;5580071]
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Back 20 years ago, ex hubby and I bought 9 1 day old calves from a dairy. All of them had the scours and we gave them MR with honey. That's what the dairy farmer advised us to do. 5 of the 9 lived. I don't know if that was pure dee luck or what but I was only expecting to get 1 maybe 2 out out of the bunch.
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MY question would be, why the H do so many farms have calves with scours???? And you all know Haypoint knows it all, and thats no myth. HaHa. You all do what you want to do. I will do what works for me, and don`t tell anyone, I eat a few raw eggs myself in smoothies. < God Bless America > Thanks Marc
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And just because I have only raised two BC's does NOT mean I dont have experience raising animals. I dont recall reading in the MB rules that I have to give you my resume in order to post here or give my opinion. :kiss: Quote:
I too would like to see the scientific proof that e coli is more common in home flocks. You "just saying" there is more exposure doesn't make it true. I would much rather take my chances on free range pasture hens then with factory farm hens and grocery store eggs any day. Again I think the bacteria most associated with eggs is salmonella and not e-coli. Could be wrong though. Quote:
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You are right it was salmonella not eColi. I get them confused. But the point is the same. It always seemed to me that home raised animals were healthier. It feels like it should be that way. But don’t believe me; call your State Vet at your State’s Department of Agriculture. See where the last ten cases of Poultry diseases came from. When a commercial operation gets a disease, it is national news, but when Mr Greenjeans has a dozen hens fall out of their nest box, nobody knows about it. But I digress. The calves are your property. Do what you want. Most free advice is worth just what you paid for it. Listen to all the folk remedies, write them down. Then ask your Vet why they wouldn’t be better than modern medicine and why they don’t work. Then form your opinion on who is right and who is pulling your leg. |
I'd like to know how this calf is now.
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After the shot of Blackberry wine, yes i tried it all!! He is up and running around. I took him out today for a stroll and he looks like hes doing pretty darn good considering. His poo isnt 100% normal 100% of the time, but it does have some substance to it every time now. I may become one of those crack pots that thinks if it works once it must be right, well since i tried everything else and the wine is the only thing to show improvement, i believe me n 'Fighter' as we call him now, may just have to share a drink together every now and again!! For the comments on the replacements getting the bacteria, they were never exposed to it. They werent born til after the clean up (on my behalf and the farmers) and they are in different housing. Hopefully that is good enough to keep them from getting it.
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FIL uses the blackberry brandy and has had good luck. The best cure/prevention for scours is sunshine and clean ground.
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