Grass fed genetics
 

I am looking fir ideas on producing the ultimate grass fed breed. Currently I am using angus, hereford, a little highland. I am using a red poll bull now. My goal is to produce a calf that is polled, well muscled, finishes off grass at a young age(18 months at the most), with tender marbled beef.
Any breed suggestions, why?

Are you familiar with this publication? There are many articles and ads that might be of interest to you:

http://www.stockmangrassfarmer.net/

Rob, the following pic is of a heifer that is nearly 1 year old. She has never had any grain or any other supplemental feed. I do not creep feed! Her life has been spent on nothing but pasture forages. She is from an unregistered black Angus cow that I also raised. The bull that she is from is a registered Murray Grey. MG animals are suppose to marble off grass. If you are going to produce the ultimate grass fed animal IMO you need to have an animal that is adapted to living in your area and adapted to the forages and the quality thereof that thrive on your place. My main forage is fescue and it has the endophyte issues that have to be dealt with during the seasons. Getting your animals to produce what you desire takes time. For example I know that I cannot maintain a large framed muscled and heavy milker brood cow from my place. MY environment and production methods just will not support such. I cannot and do not try to produce top weight weaned feeder calves to sell. Instead I produce feeder calves that are somewhat smaller at time of sell but since my cows are smaller I feed less per cow but can have more cows and I can produce more calves. In the end, I am selling as much or more weight. My cows give only a modest amount of milk they stay in good body condition on, at times, inferior feed(depends on the time of year and weather). Since the cows retain body condition they breed back readily. Realize my feed is cheap feed and results in a low production cost. What I do applies to me and my place. You will have to determine what works for you and your location. I firmly believe that being the low cost producer through whatever means and methods is the answer to being profitable.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...10829-1732.jpg

I'm with Agmantoo. This is the same model I'm working on in my start up operation here. I think that being in SW Washington I have an edge on his methods as we get a much longer growing season. I too am dealing with endophite grass, but I'm just going to breed for cattle that do well on it.

So far my fastest growing calves have been Holsteins. I know, it sounds backwards but it is what it is I suppose. I'm not sure but I think it's because they come from an organic dairy farm so they may well be adapted to our local grasses already.

I want to recommend Lowline Angus as well. They do produce a smaller carcass but the ribeye is large in proportion. They are bred to finish on grass and produce a marbled, fine textured beef. Also, they do well in a cross breeding operation - breed a Lowline bull to your heifers and get good grass finished beef and no pulling of calves either. Sell those as replacement heifers, sell the bull calves & keep back some heifers from that batch, breed them to Lowline for first calves, then to any breed bull after the first one. Those cows will cost less to keep yet produce more pounds of beef per acre on grass. It's a win-win situation!

Have you read any of Gerald Frys articles? Try this link
http://www.bovineengineering.com/
He has grass fed genetics that he has worked on for many years and how to linear score, there is a lot of good reading on his sites that may be of interest to you.

Carol K

Agmantoo- Are those full size angus or lowlines?
I am afraid of going to small with the breeds. We just had a suprise calf today that was very small. Nothing wrong with her but she is week. I think because of her size. The highland crosses always give small calves.

Rob
My black cows are approximately frame 4 unregistered predominately Angus. I would get penalized where I sell if they were lowline.

What's your target market? If you're selling by the cut, you may disappoint people with a small steak, but if you're selling by the half... most people will prefer a smaller carcass.

ALL breeds of cattle are fat around here, getting just grass. (In the summer). If you have good pasture, your cattle will be fat on grass.

Even the Holsteins get plenty plump when the grass is up and growing. If your cattle can't get fat on just grass, there is something wrong with your pasture. Or maybe you need to deworm more often.

Does anyone use BCS to score their animals? What would you say Agmantoo's heifer's BCS is?

Another question I have is how folks would rate the following breeds in their ability to maintain body condition during a cold winter -- e.g. temps 0 to 20 degrees in Jan and Feb.

Angus, Hereford, Galloway, Red Poll, Devon.

Well, to each their own, but if I were in your position, I'd go straight Angus. Certainly I'd take the Highland out of the mix. (No insult to Highland breeders. They just don't produce the pounds of other beef breeds. And there's a horn issue.)

Learn about EPDs.
http://www.angus.org/Nce/Definitions.aspx

I'm convinced that a straight bred calf will give you more consistent growth and quality than a cross bred calf.

I don't know much about Red Poll, but perhaps you should keep the heifers from the Red Poll-Angus cross and put a good Angus bull on them? You'd get some heterosis in the females (and that's where you need heterosis), yet the calves would be 3/4 Angus, out of closely related mommas and be more consistent. Consistently good....or bad.:grin:

I'd really be careful about downsizing the size of your cattle. I know you're planning to sell direct to the consumer, but if you get the calves too small and they wind up at the sale barn, you'll really take a hit. Calves are "graded" and small, chunky, big bellied, calves aren't a good buy for a feedlot.
http://www.thejudgingconnection.com/...ing_System.pdf

If selling your beef as grass fed, you're not taking them to the livestock market. That means you don't have to be governed by the rules of the livestock market.

Angus dominates the livestock market, due to the very proactive Angus association. Anything other than Angus has a disadvantage at the livestock market. However, in specialty sales, exotic breeds are desirable.

I don't know how to select a good breed for marbling on grass. I know how to select a good breed for marbling on grain. Just see what breeds are most prevelent in the feedlots. That is Angus. If they have been bred to be so well marbled on grain, I'd suspect they would not do as well on grass.

I wish I could grow grass like Agmantoo. I wouldn't be surprised if he couldn't marble a Zebu or a longhorn on his grass. Isn't that pretty stuff?

For cold tolerance, check which breeds are most prevelant in Canada.

For insight into which grass fed breeds make the best tasting steaks, read "Steak" by Mark Schatzker. It's cheap from Amazon and is full of great information about how to find (and raise) the best steaks.

There is a market for grass fed beef that operates somewhat like the open livestock markets do. It's the Tall Grass cattle Company. They make contracts to buy your grass fed cattle and process them. They have strict requirements that you have to meet.

One of my neighbors just had his cattle inspected by Arby's, the fast food chain that is looking to buy more and more American grass fed beef (most grass fed beef comes from New Zealand and Australia). They used ultrasound to determine how well marbled his beef was.

His beef wasn't quite up to snuff. He needed bigger rib-eyes and a heavier outer fat pad on his Angus steers (that's so they can be dry aged longer). He bought a Devon bull that graded really high in those traits and will have his next crop of steers tested. Hopefully they'll pass this time.

Angus have been bred for feed efficiency. Protein is protein. I'd be interested to see why you think a breed that marbles and gains well on grain won't do the same on grass?

Marbling starts almost at birth. I've had ultrasound techs tell me they can identify calves still on their momma with the potential to marble.

:D I always have to laugh at comments like "proactive Angus Assn". Shouldn't every breed assn be "proactive"? Year after year, the Angus breed grows while others decline. Do you seriously think that if the cattle didn't work for people who buy them (ranchers, feedlot operators, packers, supermarket, consumer) they'd continue to pay a premium for them year after year? We've had Angus cattle for over 20 years. We bought our first Angus bull well before black was beautiful. I've been amazed at how the breed has grown and improved. It's not the Angus Assn that made Limousin, Gelbvieh, Simmental, Maines, etc., turn black. Those breed associations made the decision to allow crossbred animals to be registered instead of trying to honestly improve their breed or create their own branded beef.

genebo,
I have no direct experience in the grass-fed cattle market, but do you think it is worth the trouble? I'm not sure being a low volume/high cost beef producer yields better net profit than a high volume/low cost producer. I understand the thought of trying to maximize profit with limited acreage though if that is the goal. I'll have to do more reading about the Tallgrass Beef Company. Sounds interesting at least. I'm researching the Murray Grey breed for a possible sire replacement mostly for their sustainability on grass and to downsize the herd somewhat. The marbling on grass trait is a bonus. It doesn't appear that one will cost more than a good Angus one. Our main sire is full-blood Angus without papers, but after reading agmantoo's thoughts in the rotational grazing thread I've determined he's just too big and throws big calves that historically heifers have had trouble with. I used to think that all heifers have trouble calving and was just part of the process. I'm changing my view slowly.
:hijacked:
My grandpa was a grass-fed producer before it was cool. Back 25+ years ago he owned a small-town grocery store that had a meat market in the back. He was a butcher by trade prior to opening the store. This was back in the day when meat markets were delivered beef carcasses to cut. Of course he sold lots of beef he cut up from meat packers, but he would also sell beef to individuals from cattle that he raised on his farm. I don't know what he charged, but he had lots of local repeat customers. Given the area we live in I can't imagine him charging premium prices like what is in the grass-fed niche market these days. The process went something like this: customer says he is almost out of beef and would buy a side or 1/2 side if he has a steer ready for slaughter, he would try to find someone to buy the other portion, then send the steer to the slaughter house, they would kill/skin/gut/hang it until he called and said he was ready for it, he would pick up one side at a time and process it at his house (he had a small van body he converted to a processing area with bandsaw, grinder, etc), he would store the packages in his freezers until the customer picked them up. I would help package for him if he was doing one on a Saturday. I haven't researched it, but I'm relatively sure the govt has complicated things to where this is no longer possible. In today's grass-fed beef market so much emphasis is placed on tender, well-marbled, genetically superior beef IMO to justify the cost being charged. I think there should be a market for competitive-cost locally-raised beef. Not something that would be served in a fine restaurant, but would still be darn tasty on the backyard grill. The average consumer is used to buying beef from wallieworld, Kroger, or whatever is your local grocery store (you get the idea). The overwhelming majority of the beef they sell is Select Grade - especially their specials that most people go for. My guess is that the niche producers' beef grades Choice with rare exceptions going Prime. There are only so many buyers willing to pay the price for these grades, so it appears that there could be a market for locally-raised beef that is similar in quality to what is found in the grocery store.

I worked in a meat market when I was younger, but was never fast enough to make it as a cutter. I do however still process my own deer.


Kyle

Angus marbles up just fine on good grass.

If you have tough weather or tough living conditions you can't beat the range bred Hereford. Those are some durable cattle and they can take care of themselves quite well.

In Virginia, in order to sell beef, it has to be inspected by a State inspector or a USDA inspector. It has to be labeled for it's source: Name and address. You can sell up to 1000# of beef each year without a license. To sell more, you have to have a State license.

You can have your own cattle processed at home or at a slaughterhouse that is not inspected, but the meat is marked "Not For Sale" and is not supposed to be sold.

I sell my beef "on-the-hoof", as a live animal. There is no limit to how much I can sell that way and the new owner can have it processed without inspection, as long as he doesn't re-sell it.

There is a lot of beef that changes hands after being processed without inspection. Under-the-counter sales. It usually happens between family member, friends and co-workers.

I didn't mean to step on the toes of Angus farmers. I respect the work that their association has done to promote their breed. My uncle was an Angus farmer. I have watched as the Angus breed changed, due to the selection of animals that finished best under the conditions they were raised. Today, that almost always means a feedlot, with flaked grain fed continuously. Read the Steak book for a good description of how cattle are raised in feedlots. Or read Temple Grandin's works. Feedlots are almost the universal way of raising beef in the USA. That's where your store-bought beef comes from.

To the OP: Basically if you already have a herd of cattle, do a good job selecting keepers from your own herd that are closest to your goals. Add new animals from other farms directly, rather than a sale barn buy, so you can see their herd and evaluate how well their animals match your goals.

There is no magic breed or cross that is the best.

As long as you're as honest as you can be with yourself in evaluating your herd against your goals, and careful in selecting new animals, you will move forward. Keep daughters of your best cows, cull the poorest cow every year. Use a bull from a grass-finishing farm with similar goals to yours and you should do well.

I prefer black cows, but have a red cow that is just a STAR producer so she stays. She can't help it if she's funny looking. ;) She gets the job done.

What do you think of black baldies? Best of both worlds or not worth the effort?

Another thought comes to mind: What will happen to this ultimate breedstock if you are forced to liquidate your herd due to extreme drought? All the effort and extra $$ spent will be lost when they go to the sale barn. Yes they may sell in the top 2% for the day, but I'm sure that would be well below the investment laid out when you purchased them. I could see some producers being able to take advantage of the current drought in the South and purchase some high quality genetics at severe discounts provided they can feed them.


Kyle

To answer a few questions; We currently sell beef at the farrmers markets as well as year round through a meat subscription. Almost like a CSA for vegetables. All of our meat is provincially inspected and legal.
We currently process about 30 steers a year plus the odd cull cow for hamburger.
So far we have used mostly black angus, but other breeds have been used as well. The problem with angus I have experienced is they are high strung. However we have been satisfied with the meat quality. Herefords and hereford angus crosses have worked well and shorthorns. Highland have been ok but they take a long time to grow out. I think no more than 25% highland would be good. They add hardiness. We get cold wet winters here. The angus do not tolerate it as well as the herefords or highlands.
Another problem we are having is frame size. We are expanding our herd. It is hard to find moderately sized cows. The angus and hereford here are usually over 1400lbs. I would like some 1100lb cows. I have high hopes for our red poll bull. He has the temperment I like. Calm cattle produce more tender meat, that is a fact. He is also smaller framed. So I hope he will produce nice heifers.
Not all cattle will fatten on grass in Canada. Our grazing season is only 6 months long.
As far as what cattle are popular in Canada. The most popular are Charolais, limo, semintal and angus. The first three breeds are too big for my purpose.
There is a demand for grass fed loacal beef. As well as other meats. As far as if it is worth it. Beef sells in cycles, just like pork. Usually a 5 year cycle. Usually that means 1 year of good money, 3 years of ok money and one year of loss. My income is under my full control. I don't have years of loss. I know in my area we are the only ones that don't complain that it costs money to farm. Our biggest expenses are from trying to expand, not stay afloat.

You might look into www.pharocattle.com as it seems like you're looking for what they're producing. Their next bull sale is Nov. 7th, doesn't look like I'll be able to get one this year... :sob:

You beat me to it. I just got semen from three of their bulls - Red Angus: Johnny B Good and Colorado High, and the Hereford bull, 123. They do have a rating system for disposition, udder, etc, so I hope it turns out.

I'm avoiding black as they get hotter in the summer and are less attractive. Salebarn price doesn't affect me. Heat stress affects cattle when weather is above 70 degrees. Since they are heat producers, heat bothers them more than cold, as long as they have feed.

http://www.cattletoday.com/archive/2...e/CT1033.shtml

http://www.stockmangrassfarmer.net/c...age.cgi?id=570

Gabriel
That is a very good web site. It is too bad they are in Colorado. HOwever it did clarify some things for me. The information about frame size was great. We just bought a red poll bull that we will be using for the next crop. He is a smaller framed bull. He is supposed to produce exceptional heifers. I have found the angus and hereford here have all increase in size to the point that they do not suit our needs. A 1400lb+ hereford will not produce the calf I want.
We have kicked around the idea of doing some AI in the herd. If we do I will definately return to this link. They have probalbly the best looking angus bulls I have seen.

A number of folks are practicing a low/no input approach with good results. I really like this guy, and his herd quitter ideas.

http://www.pharocattle.com/

I have heard the term herd quitter before probably on their website. What does it mean?

Kyle


I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the father but by me. John 14:6

Never mind I found it in one of their newsletters.

[[[[.......What do you think of black baldies?......]]]]]

They seem to do well. I've never owned one, but the ranchers east of here will run purebred Hereford mama cows and buy a long yearling Angus bull to run with them. Then the half grown black baldies are pulled off the range and sold in truck load lots of matching cattle to the feed lots.

I hear that the Angus don't do that well out on the harsh range, but they get replaced every year.

I also see groups of black baldies out here on irrigated pasture. They always look really good. They should bring black-hided cattle prices. They are eligible for the Angus premium in price. I know that the feed lot buyers like them quite well, which means that they are good doers.

Most of what I see on irrigated pasture is Black Angus.

The black baldies are a cross breed, so if you want to raise black baldies, you either need to purchase them as calves of else keep both Hereford and Angus breeding stock.

There is a good reason to raise black hided beef cattle, and it is the sales policies at the livestock markets. At our closest market the cattle are classed as "black" or "exotic". Exotic includes everything that is not either a black hide or a black baldy.

No matter that one breed does better on grass, or that lighter colors draw less flies, the farmer will choose to raise black hided cattle because he can sell them for more money.

Beef cow efficiency article. It talks about the southwest specifically, but seems like it applies everywhere. Small is beautiful.