I have had Jerseys. Yes, they were on pasture and didn't look like that. I have also been on commercial farms that didn't have emaciated cows like that.


I believe for the price she paid, and the problems she got with this cow, she should get the papers. It is only right.

Mary
Your spot on with this one. Our old vet one time suggested that if we wanted a teat sewed up was to take the cow to the UW vet school. The micro surgery would have cost close to $10,000 at that time. Your odds of 1000-1 was better then he said the school would give.
Bob

Well, I went to Hoard's Dairyman. I saw animals in good condition in the videos. I was NOT able to count every vertebrae in the backbone. I know that Jerseys will show a few rib bones--that's to be expected. What I do not expect to see is basically the whole skeletal structure of the cow. I don't expect to see the lumbar bones in an animal of this age.

Some people are unable to see condition on an animal. I accept that. I had a fellow unload an old horse at my place on the way to a parade once. This fellow had ridden for years, but could not see that this horse was near death. I was shocked at her appearance, and prevailed upon him to take one of my horses to the parade. I could smell the death smell from her system shutting down. She did die 3 days later, in comfort, and after a vet call. It was just old age. However, the owner could not see the condition of the animal.

Regardless, if I am selling a milk cow with a bad teat, I need to inform the potential buyer up front; not wait until they arrive and are in shock from the conditions at my farm. If I have a registered animal for sale, I need to have the papers handy, and not have to be hounded for them.

I'm finished here.

Madsaw, I am not offended, I will contact you, I need all the help I can get and do understand what you are saying thankyou.

The rations were run back when she was still milking 3gal per day. Now they have been increased. The dairy nutritionist I am working with graduated from Texas A&M. I'm doing the best I can here.

I was told the cow would give me about 3gal. per day. I was not told that would be ONLY if I milked the cow once a day like they do. BUT, he said the calf was a 2mo. old calf and so I figured she was at least getting 1-2 gal. per day. If the calf was on her would that constitute the second milking?

I'm not here to bash anyone, I just want answers. I don't even really know when this cow calved. As I said, I asked to see the calf and was told it was somewhere in the pasture.

I was not about to start a confrontation with this man. I was all alone, a woman. That is NOT a good idea IMO. The best thing for me to do at that point, I feel, was to get the cow and get out. She IS putting on weight and the cow is working just FINE for me. She only needs to get me by till this spring when my heifer has her calf.

Now, please inform me on how to dry up that teat so I can NOT have to worry about mastitis. I can't stop the milk from coming out when she lets her milk down, it leaks and leaks and leads...........more like squirts.

For what its worth, I did buy a cow from SpringValley. I was there in August to pick up my cow. She looked like a normal healthy jersey cow. I also saw all the other cows. I can assure you that Pear was not in this condition when I saw her in August. Nor were any other cows. His farm looked like many other family farms I've been on. More work to be done than there is help. I think most farmers with a small operation can attest to that.

As far as the registration papers....I don't see anywhere that it says he is not going to send them. I doubt that was ever a thought he had. He just hasn't gotten to it yet and probably should have. Marc has always been fair and honest with any dealings I've had with him and I know I'm not the only other person on here that has purchased from him.

It saddens me that Pear is in the shape she is in. Jill, it seems like you are doing a good job getting her back to where she needs to be. As far as drying off the one teat. We normally just stop milking that teat and it drys off on its own. With her being only 2 months after calving maybe you could milk that teat every other milking and drop down from there. I'm sure someone will weigh in on that............I don't know much, I'm just a "hobby farmer" :)

I bought my jersey girl in July and she was in great condition I thought. Ya know, I couldn't get a good picture of her to save my life! She looked like nothing but ribs and bones as that is all that showed up in the picture! Drove me nuts! And, the guy said he would mail the papers when he had time as he had to send them in for the first time anyway...that was July. I called him last week with another question and he said he got busy and hadn't sent the papers in yet (I didn't ask, he told me when I asked him opinion on a bull I was thinking of using on her) but he is the only one working the farm and so I understood. Maybe Marc just didn't have time. Not sticking up for anyone as I haven't been to his farm or know either person but, sometimes, pictures suck, sometimes people get busy.....but, she is happy with the cow. That's what counts. Good luck with the teat though, sounds like there is a solution, just a pain to get there.

YEP, I'm happy with the cow, she is putting on weight and I'm having her tested for Johnes just to make everyone happy. I'll take pics of the teat CLOSE UP to see what the pros think. ALL I want is for the milk NOT to spray ALL over when I milk it. I know using the teat infusion thing will only make that teat WORSE, I don't want that. But if she won't breed back because of condition or whatever reason, I don't know that I should fix it. I only need this cow to give me milk till spring around May till my heifer calves. SO, here I am $600 in the cow, $50 on fuel, feed, she's not bred (wondering if she will since she's been with the bull since she calved) and she IS 10. Where do I stop putting more into this cow. I was just going to feed her and cull her when I get my heifer fresh. Some say fix the teat, others say no. I'm at a loss.....

Madsaw, are you saying that all the grain is displacing the better food stuff like grass and hay? That's what she was on. The seller himself admitted that the cow was thin. WELL, those pics WERE taken the day I got her home. If he was already feeding what you are recommending, the GOOD stuff, grass and hay. How did she get to this point and how do I get her out of it? I'm starting to wonder if I now need to take her to have her teeth floated at the Equine dentist. They don't charge that much and it does WONDERS for the animals. Proly cost $200 total, gas and all.

In the risk of being bashed around and have my reputation trashed as Marc's has, I'm going to weigh in here. Let me state that I am the one responsible for sending out the registration papers. The way this is "normally" done is Marc and I are to sign the papers and fill in the new buyers information, a check gets attached (from us) and sent in to the registry. They then send the new registration to the new buyers. We asked Jill for her address at the time she came. We asked her again in emails. Now she says she sent it to us on the 15th. I went through all of our emails and told her we never received it. Now she refuses to send it to us, but will send it to ANYONE else that PM's her? I call that odd, but somehow she is convinced that we would do her harm or something I guess as she's accused us of that however slightly veiled. Anyway, the compromise was to send the paper, signed by us but not fully filled out obviously, to a neutral party. We made a special trip into town to put it in the post box last night.

Jill has trashed our reputation every way to Sunday here in public, yet all her emails to us previously were friendly. We wish she would have said something as we would have made this right. We have NEVER strong-armed a sale. Buyers can take all the time they want to make up their mind. We've even allowed one buyer to hand milk the cows she was interested in to see which one milked easier! Jill was welcome to check Pear out. Feel her, touch her, whatever. But Jill has now played the "God" card and the "I'm just a woman" card. Sigh... whatever.

We did not force her or strong arm her into buying the cow. That's not our way. We want our cows and heifers and other animals to go to good homes and would rather someone turn them down if they don't think the animal will meet their needs. Jill wanted a cheap cow in milk to get her through to the spring. Pear met those needs. She's an older cow that has birthed easily every year. We told her she was "running with the bull". We did not say she was bred. She IS a 4 quarter cow as you can milk out that quarter! She just has a HEALED wound on the one quarter. Pear was a nurse cow this year as she just loves calves and will allow ANY calf to nurse her. Obviously the calf wasn't having issues with any of the 4 quarters. The 3 gallons per milking that Jill mentioned was what we were getting at the END of her last lactation. Pear milked 5-6 gallons when first freshened, but we didn't want Jill to think that she'd milk this much for the full year as cows do lessen their milk towards the end. Pear is friendly, halter trained, good manners, and a Registered Jersey.

Jill has stated that our pastures aren't adequate? You can't see our pastures from the buildings as they are on the other side of a tree line. She didn't mention that we have a round bale feeder which we keep full with fresh hay. Our cows free feed as much as they want. We feed them a scoop of corn in their feed bunks as they are getting milked. This is how we slip them their vitamins and minerals and any other suppliments each cow may need. Each cow has their preferred stancion, so it is easy to change their feed rations at the feed bunk. During the winter, their feed is changed to account for the lack of pasture and any nutritional needs they may need. We do NOT starve our cows.

Jill said the horses bit the cow yet I don't see any bite mark from the pictures she showed. Yes, there are two horses running with the cows. They keep pretty much to themselves. We have never seen any bad behaviors or any wounds on any of our cows. They are checked daily during milking.

As for Pear, keep in mind that this cow is 11 years old, freshened 2 months prior, was just taken away from her calf, hauled 2.5 hours away and put in DRY LOT after being on pasture. Her feed was changed. She was taken away from all her friends and was probably feeling alone in solitary confinement. Everything in her life changed, so I would expect that she would have a weight drop. Yes, the calf is alive and well, otherwise Pear wouldn't have bellered so much at her missing calf! Common sense, but if you want pictures, I'd be happy to post them.

Jill even put a burr out there about the alpacas as she alluded to our alpacas being dry lotted. The alpacas can be seen from the drive and by the road. They are in a 2-3 acre pasture. The pasture was grazed (and a bit dry as many are) but we also suppliment them with hay (like we do our cows), huge round bale feeder we keep full. You can't tell the condition of the alpacas without putting your hands on them. JDog did NOT put hands on. During the winter when they need the extra nutrition, they get llama/alpaca pellets.

Jill did not go any farther than the barn. She saw a few cows that were keeping Pear company. She did not see the balance of the cows and heifers and youngsters as they were out to pasture, yet she gets everyone thinking that we have emaciated animals and should be turned in?... Did I mention that the pasture is on the other side of a tree line and behind other buildings?

We've sold many animals over the years. No complaints until this very public lambasting. We even sold a bred heifer to a VET from Iowa. They were very pleased with their purchase. I guess what I'm getting at is very simple. Jill has very publicly painted us in a bad light instead of speaking to us privately. She saw a few of our cows in the barn. She did not see our pastures. She did not put hands on any alpaca yet bashed us for their care as well. Others are now judging us on what one person has said.

If any of you wish. I'd be happy to post pictures. Panoramic pictures. We welcome you out to make your OWN decisions... in person.... and not base your opinion on hearsay.

JDogg1222 listen to Madsaw and MARYDVM if you want expert advice. As far as your cow being bred it sounds like she came in heat at around 60 days after calving which is about right very few cows will breed back before that time.

Please forward me the email you sent asking for my address.

Most cows never need dental work anytime in their lives. Their mouths are not the same as horses. If she's chewing feed easily, and passing normal manure, I wouldn't bother with an equine dentist.

There is a common phrase in dairy cows - "milking off their back". A good producer that freshens underweight can lose a whole lot of weight during peak production. An old cow is also harder to keep condition on. Since your cow is eating, and gaining weight, it's likely she'll do just fine as a family cow, with more attention than she could get in a herd situation. Not being bred after being 2 months fresh is not a bad thing. Maybe you should plan on breeding her at 4 months fresh, when she'd had a chance to get up to a better body weight. You could even wait a lot longer. I have a friend that breeds her cow every 2 years, and that cow keeps producing 1 to 2 gallons a day all through that long lactation.

The way most dairymen handle a teat injury like your cow has is to leave that teat cup off and let the milk just drain out on the floor while milking the other 3 quarters. If you're milking by hand, and the milk is spraying all over, you might need some work done on the teat. There are 2 options available.

One is cutting off the entire end of the teat below the injury to open the teat canal for drainage. The milk just pours out on letdown, and surprisingly, if kept on clean bedding, cows rarely get mastitis since the milk letdown flushes the bacteria out of the teat canal.

The other treatment is easiest when done near drying off, or when production is low. The cow is sedated and laid down. The whole teat is cut off next to the udder and the quarter sewed shut after being infused with antibiotics. No drainage to worry about when milking, and the quarter eventually dries up and shrinks down. Your vet can advise you on what's best for your cow.

He misrepresented this cow to me plain and simple
This is probably what I am more upset about, but, a LOT can go south during drought conditions.

LOL.... I don't know how to attach a photo here. Do you have regular email I can send it to?
Her name is Pear and I have a picture of her in the stantion in the barn. It's a little dark, but you can get the idea. You do realize that this price is for the cow only. (grin)


http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k2.../Pichesent.jpg

Hey Jill; This is my ten year old cow, I just want to get rid of one more cow. She will give around three gallons of milk a day. She may be bred, she is with the bull, she had a heifer calf about two months ago. She can be hand milked, she has big handles. And she will raise any and all calves she can get, she tries to steal all the calves away from the cows when they have calves. She is a sweet old girl, but she isn`t dead. I would take 600.00 for her if you get her soon. She has never had trouble having a calf, and is a great mom. Let me know what you think, I will try and get a pic today. > Thanks Marc


OK, I think I can make AM work. I'm proly about 2hrs. from you. Is 7:30am too early?
She looks GREAT. Do you think her teeth will get her through another winter of grinding hay? How old do cows live anyway?
Do you think she will load into a two horse trailer? Also, you wouldn't happen to a cull bottle bull calf for sale would you, jersey?
OK, let me know. I know, I'll bring cash! :O)
Thank you, thank you, Thank you!
Jill

He said,
Jill ; you don`t have to come that early. I think she would fit in a two horse , as long as it doesn`t have a divider in it. They can stand kitty corner in the trailer. She is in very good shape, and yes she will make it through the winter. There is nothing wrong health wise with her, she does very well. No I have no calves, I feed them all out. You can just milk her for now, till you find a calf. Call in the morning if you need to, I will check this again in the morning. > Thanks Marc


Thanks
jill


PS the pictures ARE from the day I got the cow home. I'm not making ANYTHING up.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k2...Teatcut009.jpg
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k2...Teatcut006.jpg
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k2...Teatcut005.jpg

I got to be gone the rest of the day. I think this teat is not that bad off and can be fixed so I can hand milk w/out it spraying back at me.

The teat canal is open and functioning. I think if I just tell the vet to stitch it up and put a drain in it till it heals, keep it clean, she'll be a good as new.

Also lead this newbie to believe she was proly bred by now.
"Knowing her, she'll give you a heifer in about 9 months!! LOL... Picture sent. Let us know what your plans are to pick her up. Oh, cash is good. (grin)"

I'm done here!!! MARYDVM and Madsaw you can PM me to help with my cow.

Springvalley has been and hopefully will continue to be a wise and knowledgeable participant on this board. I for one, do not want to lose him on here.

Jdog, I wish you the best with your cow but as a fellow female farmer, you hurt my dignity when you played the helpless female card. Farmers, of any sex, rarely have time, or energy to plot and plan to rape and pillage. If you are afraid in the company of fellow farmers, this may not be what you are meant to do.

I was rather disappointed at the helpless woman card as well. I'm a female farmer and it's a long road to gain respect and to be taken seriously and this is one of the reasons why. If you can't handle yourself don't put yourself in these positions and drag us all down.

Marc and Jo, if you really meant that about the invitation to stop by, DH and I are going to be taking a road trip across the midwest here in a bit. Where abouts are you in IL? If it's close to our path I'd love to stop by and see your dairy. All the dairies here are Holsteins and rather large, I'd love to see a small family operation and learn a little about Jerseys as I'd like to eventually have a family milk cow. And I'd also be happy to report back to HT with an honest assessment of our visit if you'd like. :)

I'm no dairy expert but that teat wound doesn't look so bad. I was thinking the milk was literally spraying all over the place. Can you milk her as is? If so I might just leave it be. No sense in creating another wound if you don't have to.

Doesn't look too bad to me either. I've had goats with a large orifice that had worse problems than that. They leaked all the time. I was told to try prep H on them but don't know that it would work in this case. Oh and there is actually something to put on that will close the orifice till needed open again but I am drawing a blank LOL! Hate it when that happens....cause it happens a lot.

You know...some jersey's are just thin. Most of them are in fact. Perhaps not that thin, but it happens. If they are a really good cow, you have to watch them because they will milk their backs off. A cow in this condition that is giving 5 gallons of milk a day.....she's milking her back off. I'd lower the alfalfa ration pronto no matter what your feed guy says. If you're feeding 12 lbs of alfalfa pellets per day and walking her to eat fresh alfalfa, I believe that encourages her to produce more milk rather than helps her build up her body condition.

Well folks. Take a look at the Cowsmopolitan site for the winning jerseys. The way some of them looked I would say a few here would have had the animal abuse folks right there. But, for the most part the camera angle plays a bigg part. We was in teh stands in front and above them. Go to the link I have here http://www.cowsmo.com/11OCT_ExpoJers...sults_000.html Then take alook at the mature cow class. Now them pics make them look great but put a differnt angle on them and they looked mighty thin. FOr the most part the ribs showed on every cow above a 3 yr old. Its true a older jersey will milk herself to death.
Bob

Geez! That 4 year old class had hooters galore but man....thin. And if I had to guess, they showed them at the best angle possible so they probably looked lots worse.
I know a man who had a 700lb cow that gave 70lbs of milk a day. 10% of her weight every day was given in milk. She was a shorter jersey at a registered jersey dairy. She was really something in my opinion.

i went to the link...some of them looked thin yep
but truly no comparison to the picture I saw of the cow in this post

That link does put some perspective on it, doesn't it. Most of the cows in the 5 year class are pretty close to the same condition. They're probably milking more, but this gal's got 5 years on them, too.

I'm with you Lamoncha lover, I must not be seeing the same pics these people are talking about. I don't see ANY ribs on those cows.

I had just milked the cow before I took the pics of the teat. Yes, she leaks ALL day drip by drip, then when she lets her milk down when I'm milking her it squirts out the side. You really can't milk the teat out by hand very good and when you do it REALLY sprays back at you.

Sorry all you girl farmers for letting you down. I tried to get to see her calf, he just didn't act like he wanted to take me to the pasture to show me anything. So I didn't push the issue and made the call to remove the cow from where she was.

The point I was trying to make folks is that all cattle do not need to be slick and fat to be deemed in good shape. Take the cows at the dairy expo. I never went to the barns to look closer at them but they were thin. The pics really donot show it. My guess is yes they skip a milking before show to get them bags. But, for the most part them older cows would be pushing close to 80 - 100 lbs aday.
Jill Pear is thinner then them show girls but look close as to how thin the musscles were in the back legs and such. If you could take the bags off Pear and the show cows Pear would only been behind them by maybe 100-150 lbs. These are not the big candian jerseys that used to put holstiens to shame any more.
Now the teat. Once its healed like that there is nothing a vet can due. Is there still a orfice in the end? A injure like that would be better suited to be machine milked. Also we use fight bac teat spray. It helps seal the end to prevent bacteria growth and such. Also it helps contrace the muscle to seal off the teat too. Farm and Fleet carries it.
Now the calf, if something like that was said by me to a customer. The under tone to it would be the calf was dead. Its easier to say its in the pasture then to say it died and cause a bunch of questions as to why. ALso if the records are off also it might be hard to pick out specific calf too. I have that issue alot. But I am up front with folks and tell it like it is. Marc might have been pinched for time and just did not want to do the 20 questions. This time of year is hell on a small farm. You have to get anything and everything done before snow flys.
Jill you got my number any time you want to chat just call, day or night.
Bob

I am not a cow expert..but thin and emaciated are a bit different at least in the horse world/
I am not picking sides. I think you saw what you got when you got there. You chose to load her up. And I would be ashamed if an animal was that emaciated on my place.
I wish you the best with her. Now I am gonna stay out if this

I see what you're saying Madsaw, guess I wouldn't have been in such sock if I hadn't have been shown the pic from 2 years ago and got the idea that was what she would look like. If I'm wrong and she's not too thin then I'm wrong. I just want to know the truth about this cow so I can know where to go from here. If the calf was born dead she may not be able to have more calves, so that would be nice to know if I want to spend a ton to have her AI'd. YES, I LOVE for people to just tell it like it is! I do think I should have been told though during the sale if it was born dead.

I'd also still say that this animal should have been getting more food. Less computer time and more cow time may have made the difference for this cow. She is putting on the flesh now, I'll post some 4 week pics tomorrow ta see what ya think.

Yes the opening at the end of the teat works just fine.

No, he was not the one in a hurry, I was.

We have a cow in the dairy that cut off the entire end of her teat somehow. Without the sphincter muscle to close off the teat end, as soon as she lets milk down, it sprays everywhere. Drips some during the day. But all I have to do is wipe her down *quickly* when she gets in the barn and slap that milker on her before her milk lets down. She milk good milk out just fine. And yes, my vet said fixing it would be very hard and very expensive. So we left it and that was two lactations ago. She dries off just fine when we stop milking her. Never had a problem with mastitis. So the outlook for your girl as far as drying off shouldn't be a problem.

Hmm, to me(who isn't on anyones "side") that sounds like a joke. He told you she had been running with a bull and had calved two months ago. Maybe you didn't know it, but most cows don't cycle till two months after calving, and if milking heavy, likely not then. Especially an older cow. I'm sure Marc is familiar with this, but as its second nature for a dairyman, didn't think to stress the point to you. "Running with a bull" means simply that, nothing else.

Sad situation all around. Hope Marc sticks around, I like him and his input. This whole thing should have been kept private. Wish all the best.

So if he told you to use the infusion tips to milk her, you did know about the teat injury before buying her? Just making sure I understand, not pointing fingers or anything.

By the way, many dairies(and people on this board) wean bottle calves by 6-8weeks of age. Its quite common. And *dam-raised* calves are usually almost twice as big as bottle calves and can *easily* be weaned by the two month mark.

A cow milking that heavy did not "slip a calf". Very few cows come into much, if any milk after slipping a calf.

And besides being very thin, that cow looks healthy.

Ozark, you may not have gotten to read the other thread before it was closed and a lot was deleted. I saw most of the posts except for the one that Marc changed. I think Jill started off right with this thread, just looking for help. But there seems to have been some instant Karma when Marc started with about "Short Rant - Newbies and cows". I can see both sides, and I don't think either will ever see eye to eye. Marc denied the cow was in that shape and Jill went off the deep end. You're right it is a sad situation, but it sure has drawn a lot attention (over 1800 views between both threads). As with most things, the truth lies somewhere in-between.

me too

WOW, thanks ozark jewels. He really made me think she could be bred. :(

Well, we'd all like our cows to breed back as soon as is safely possible and running with a bull, it is of course possible. Sounds to me like she has bred like clockwork in the past, the way he was talking. And of course, who wouldn't hope the cow they are buying is bred.;)

Here's a picture of Pear's heifer calf. As we told Jill, she was out in the pasture. She's grazing and eating hay right along with the cows. Today she decided to come up with the other cows, so Marc snapped her picture. DD tells me that's Sally in the background.

http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/x...PearHeifer.jpg

Olivehill, we'll send you a PM and make plans for your visit. :)

I'm done defending our reputation on this thread. If anyone has any comments or questions, please feel free to PM me.

Thanks for the picture.

She sure looks like the typical dam-raised Jersey calf....a chub!LOL!! Last one I showed to a dairy owner, he told me I was lying and that the calf *must* have beef in the genetics.:o

Amazing what dam raised v bottle raised is isn't it? LOL! Same with goat kids and other critters. We can try all we like, but mommas are the best at raising them....usually. Have one I am feeding now that the momma had no milk so.....at least most all are better LOL!