My husband wants an organic dairy...
 

As in, his own organic dairy. He grew up on a farm and his father raised beef cattle on a very small scale. Never made a profit and quit after 10 years. It was long enough for my husband to think it was just great. He has no personal experience with dairy cows, but hates his current job and just found a place called the FSA that helps people get into farming via loans and education.

I'm all for supporting my husband in his dreams. I always have. But I have some mental hang ups: 1. I always think of farmers as poor (and so has every extended family member we've told this plan to.) I don't want to spend my whole life struggling to make ends meet. 2. We, seriously, know nothing and would rely on FSA training and business advice to get going.

Can you make money with a dairy? I seem to recall a news story some months ago where milk prices were so bad that farmer's were dumping their milk. Do organic and regular milk face the same problems? We're planning on growing the feed and hay for the cows. Will that insulate us from the problems the farmers above had? Again, we know nothing about growing grain or hay and would have to rely on training to get going.

I don't even know what else to ask.

I'm prepared to hear anything here. Just tell me the truth:

Can an organic dairy that grows its own feed support a family comfortably?

Do you have experience growing feed crops? Growing ALL of your own feed is much easier to think and talk about than it is to actually DO. I only know a couple farms that are doing it, and it took them years of planning and hard work to get set up. What happens if you have a bad drought or flood and lose 1/2 of your crop, or more?

Organic milk brings a much better wholesale price than non-organic, but organic feed is about double the cost when you have to buy it.

Unless you buy a dairy farm that's already set up and comes with equipment, etc, the start up costs would be huge. You have to buy organic cows, lots of expensive machinery, have an inspected milk parlor, etc. If you have no experience milking or managing cows, you'll probably need to hire someone with more experience.

How about start with a family milk cow, and work up from there? :)

If you plan to rely on the FSA for training you are going down the wrong path. The Farm Service Agency is the part of the USDA that is charged with handiling the various subsidies, the loan programs, and crop production reporting.

Before you make this jump you need to find a mentor to help you.

Jim

My background --I grew up on a general all-purpose farm (some crops, pigs, goats, cattle, poultry), Dad had to work off farm to keep it going, after I got married, I did the morning milking/feeding/cleanup for a dairy down the road (favorite job I ever had), till they went bankrupt and closed back in the 80's, and now (in my fifties) we have a very small homestead farm (10 acres) where we raise our own pork, poultry, beef, gardens, orchards, and have dairy cows and a bottle calf operation.

Hate to break it to ya- but farming (all farming) is something you do because you love it or grew up doing it and inherited it --it's not something you start up to make money, just doesn't work that way. You will have good years when you make a little and bad years when you lose all the profit you made, plus some. And DAIRY farming is where you willingly work 18 or more hours a day, 7 days a week. Everyday or hour spent away from the farm has to be covered by someone you can trust (and who will have to be PAID). And if you are using borrowed money for start-up, you have 2 strikes against you from the start.

Now all that said, if my husband was on board with the idea, I would open a small dairy tomorrow...

Advice-Go slow, and explore all the good and bad and then follow your heart, because YOU will have to love it when a cow decides to calve and needs some help during an ice storm at 2 am on Sunday morning.

Suggestion: Find a dairy (does not have to be organic), that will let you both come in and work weekends for them for a year (while you keep your day jobs). After a year, if you still want to do this, then you will know a little more about what to expect and have a lot more experience and confidence than you do now. Wish you all the best.

Before you start anything, do lots of planning. Especially see if there is organic feed..etc available there in your area.

My husband started his dairy with 4 cows and built up from there, paying cash for EVERYTHING; every cow, every piece of equipment, every bolt, even all the land. We aren't organic. We have no debt load; that's the only way we are staying solvent now. That and the fact that he does other work on the side; dumptrucking, septic installation and backhoe work.

I'd second the mentor idea; you need to do so much research on this, because it all looks good on paper, but is so difficult in practice.

We are in SW Missouri and have seen so many people around us try dairy farming and go bust. Even the self-proclaimed millionaire next to us tried beef cows, Angus, he didn't last a year.

Best of luck.

first off, you need to know if there are any organic farms available, if you have to transition a non organic farm into the program you need to know if you will be able to ship milk. There may not be a route available in your area. There may not be room on the truck and of course the plant may not have any room to add another farmer.
The FSA does not really do any training itself, but usually requires the person getting the loan to sign up at a local vo-tech or college.
The interest rate at FSA is unbeatable or they will guarantee a loan from a regular bank. Either way if you are going to do it, get it done as funding is drying up.

Organic Vally just added a big bonus because they need more milk. They are adding some farms but there are size restrictions..no really small or really big places....

Don't worry about feed. We do quite well and feed absolutely no grain 8 months of the year. the other 4 we feed from less than a pound a day to maybe 4. We make less milk but we have no expenses.

even non organic farms are making money at the moment. I know of one dairy that locked in there milk for over 20 bucks a hundred base for 6 months....

There's a dairy in Colorado for sale, $1,250,000. You can see its listing here: http://reckagri.com/current-listings...FcbrKgodP1HB5Q

We have a local organic dairy, they went organic in 2009, I believe. It was a 3 year process for them, and she sort of chronicled it in her annual newsletters, if you want an idea of what was required. If I remember correctly, it was 3 years for the land and 1 year for the cows, so while they were getting the land organic the last year, they had to buy ALL feed for the cows, and it had to be organic, which was quite expensive.

http://www.workingcowsdairy.com/ is their website.

Their newsletters are here: http://www.workingcowsdairy.com/7.html

2006 is the first year she talks about going organic, and why. Her newsletters, all of them, would be very informative to someone looking into going in the commercial dairy business, IMO.

I have farmed all my life, most of it has been around dairy cattle. It is a hard life, long hours, sometimes low pay, heart break, fatigue, bad days and good, fun times and sad, and I wouldn`t do anything differant. I work for my self, but have worked a good many years for others. Organic Dairying is alot of work, paper work is also terrible, you have to get everything approved before use. You need to grow or buy all your feed, and it isn`t cheap. You have to treat your animals without the use of antibiotics, with the use of them only as a last measure. EVERYTHING you use needs to be documented and approved, right down to cow dip, udder wash, and every little detail you wouldn`t even think of. You can`t use any treated lumber in you buildings, unless the cattle can`t get to it. I was going to do it myself, but when the Organic milk buyer told me that they did not need my milk when I was ready to go, it just shot the wind right out of my sails.(Make sure you get a contract if you go that route). While you do make alot more on your milk than conventional dairy farming, I`m not sure that it is all worth it. We have desided to sell all natural raw milk to people right off the farm, and we make more on it than organic milk. Maybe you need to look into that route, but I don`t know what state you are from. Don`t plan on many vacations if you start milking cows, you might just as well be married to those cows. > Thanks Marc

Another thing, should you one day do this. Sell everything you can. The dairy i spoke about above sells things on CL all the time, organic manure, empty barrels (metal and plastic), calves, the rubber flooring from their milking carousel when they replace it, etc. I would never have known they existed had I not seen them on Craigslist, because I never travel the road they are on. I occasionally go buy milk from the farm (not raw) now that I know they are there. (Some people would pay a lot to be able to get organic compost!)

A couple of their ads:

http://dothan.craigslist.org/grd/2512881360.html

http://dothan.craigslist.org/grd/2512871825.html

I disagree with your pessimistic view of profit from farming. If you don't make a profit your have a glorified hobby. I love farming and we are preparing to expand our cropping operation, however if we didn't profit from it we'd not do it except for 4H.

Jim

If you're looking to moveto another state, we know some farmers that are looking to sell in chatsworth, IL. They run an organic dairy, beef and pork farm. They do not ship their milk, only sell raw off the farm. They also sell their pork to a few restaurants in Chicago and some grocery stores. THey are willing to train the buyers of their farm. They are selling the farm as a whole, animals and all. Here's a link to their listing....http://http://home.lyonssullivanreal...s/104586/LCBOR

pm me if you want more info

Thanks for the links! We will definitely be reading these :D

This is how I would prefer to start. On the small side and without debt. But my dh wants this to be his full time job, so he wants to jump in with both feet. I'm encouraging him to go this way, but it's difficult.

I've had my husband read this thread. Hopefully we'll be able to figure out a way to farm that makes us both happy.

Thanks so much for taking the time to write :)

My advice to your DH is to quit his job and take one milking cows for somebody else.
Have him do that for a full year (in all weather and all GLORY!) before he commits any family funds to it.

Being up and under large livestock is not for everyone. It is easy to romanticize the labor of it, if you havent ever tried it.

I learned to milk when I was 14. I have been at it for over 25 years now.
In that time I have taught lots of others how to do the actual mechanical part of it.

The thing you cannot teach someone is a 'knack' for reading critters.
In order to manage a milking herd, you need to be able to 'read' their every nuance.
Nobody is perfect at this, dont get me wrong.

Cows are big. You will get hurt sometimes. Yes, you will.
The weather can really suck. Things break. Animals get sick and die.
Ah, mastitis. Oh, pinkeye. Scours and blackleg and flies and lice and all the other stuff.
Maggots. Yep, larvae happens.

Not even mentioning the cost of everything from stainless milklines to fertiliser.

My best advice to your DH is to set his alarmclock for the crack of dawn. Put on his rubberboots.
Get in the truck and drive to someone else's dairy farm every morning for awhile and learn the ropes that way.

You have to be CRAZY to want to be a dairy farmer.
It is a vow of poverty and not for the faint-of-heart.
You have to LOVE it, to make it worth your time.

Me? I wouldnt have it any other way.
It is a genetic flaw. :teehee:

Very well put, I`m with ya Wendy, genetic flaw, has to be. > Marc:buds:

^^^THIS!^^^

Excellent advise.

If you love the life, it's the greatest job in the world ... but if you DIDN'T love it, it would be the worst!

I don't think I have a pessimistic view of farming-- I love it and would go full blown with it in a heartbeat IF my other half was on board. (He is a great guy and helps fence, etc, but he really just tolerates my "hobby farm" and does not want to go bigger-- he was raised in the city and just doesn't see some things like I do.)

I interpreted the original post as wanting to know if farming was something that would make a good living right out of the gate, which is not real common without deep pockets to fall back on. I wish you the best of luck with your operation.

FANTASTIC post!

When i applied for my FSA loan I penciled the milk at 24 dollars a hundred. It had just come off a 3 dollar a hdwt bonus for shipping over winter and they have just put the 3 dollar bonus back on due to short supplies.
Grazing animals rather than filling silos and feedlotting them will save you money but it is a different way of farming and not even all organic farmers rely 100% on grazing, a lot still have the silo and feed cart mentality and really push the rules on grazing both organic and the ones made by Organic Valley.

I was lucky to find a guy that wanted to retire from the biz, he isn't much older than me but has some other things going that he wants to pursue.
He can make his milk for 11 dollars a hdwt.
With my current debt load and the extra load from the FSA loan and renting the farm and factoring in all the expenses I could have made a living milking 40 head. I did my figuring, filled out the FSA paperwork and was approved in less than a month.
Then some things happened that kinda soured the deal for me and I ended up deciding to not take the loan. I still milk cows for the guy but am looking for something else.

When you go to the FSA you must have your figures ready, you must have a plan, You had better know what you are doing. You can not walk in and say..I want to buy a farm give me some dough. They want to know which farm, how much, what else do you own that they can slap a lien on, They want to know your projected income, your projected expenses and so forth.
They do not cut you a check and send you off either, every check will be in your name and theirs. If you borrow money for cows and then cull a couple, they expect to have their name on the check you receive and you will have to run to the office to get it signed before you can cash it. Then they have the afore mentioned training requirements as well....

Then you have the organic paperwork. Every year you must re certify, all the feed you buy must be certified, plant OP and save seed? that must all be certified and recorded.
Tons of paperwork for sure, and then you have the organic fees.....
Visits by the state milk inspector, visits from the organic inspector, visits from the milk plant inspector,

I believe that there is money to be made in the dairy business. I feel that focusing on rotational grazing, getting your energy from sources other than corn, and being organic are the keys.
Do yourselves a favor and find someone to work with before you make the leap. Find someone who embraces the above 3 points and work closely with them, learn all you can.
Organic people are moving big into share milking where you not only get a wage but can earn calves as part of that, plus you get real on the job experience that will look good on an FSA loan application, Ask around, take time to look at Organic Valleys web site http://www.farmers.coop/ they have a classified section and you may turn something up that looks good.
Get a mentor, become sharemilkers, offer to help a neighbor.....dairy farming isn't just a job it is a lifestyle and if you haven't done it, you will need some adjustment time.

Is there a reason you couldn't do a simple hobby farm first? Start with one cow and work up from there? That one cow is a steep learning curve!!! :)

Great advice. I think the romanticizing about "life on the farm" is way over-rated. I milked as a kid and still miss it today. However, do I have the courage or love it enough to quit my bi-monthly guaranteed amount paychecks to pursue it for me and my family..................NO WAY! Hobby farming is all I'll ever do because my better half and kids aren't willing to make the sacrifice with me. And this commitment from the whole family is what it takes. I don't blame them. If they wanted me to quit doing what I was doing everyday and take up going to the shopping mall to buy clothes I'd puke!!!

Another idea, the divorce rate among farming families where only one half is "full in" would be quite high if a person could find the stats I'd guess.

Yes, and nothing will sink a budding dairy farm quicker then the costs of a divorce. Seen that exact scenario play out w/other folks several times. :(

My husband doesn't think he could support us on a small hobby farm and I don't work. Scratch that. I work HARD; I just don't get paid for it. :)

We are in a unique position in that we know my husband's current job is almost certainly ending in March 2012. Which is okay because he hates his job. It was his dream job once, but after doing it for 12 years, he's done.

Oh, how much detail to go into? I'm getting state certified to take care of adults with developmental disabilities. We have an extra room and we're going to see if we can find a good match to live with our family. My certification will also qualify me to take disabled people on outings, supervise them while their families work or do errands, etc. We have a special needs child which is how I became aware of the tremendous need for qualified people in our area. I should be able to make enough doing that to pay our way while our farm (hobby or otherwise) gets underway.

I want a small hobby farm that does organic dairy, beef, pork, chicken, & eggs. He wants a 50 head organic dairy. About the only thing we agree on right now is the organic part.

We have an awesome marriage, so don't worry about us. We will find common ground. <whispers> Frankly, I don't think the FSA will give him a loan because of his lack of experience, so I'm probably gonna win this one. I really, REALLY like the idea of just a few cows to start with. We'll see...

I think there's a compromise in there somewhere, and please keep in mind, i know next to nothing about farming.

Perhaps find a state where milk shares are legal, and compromise with 20 head of dairy cattle, plus your beef, pork, chicken, etc. Obviously you will need a lot of acreage for that, but you need to be aware that 3 year thing is going to apply to you UNLESS you buy land that is already organic. There may be some ways around that, all i know about going organic is what I posted about my local organic dairy, perhaps have the previous owner sign saying when the last time chemicals were used and such, but you will want to really research that. One thing you might want to consider too, A1 and A2 are starting to get loud, if I were starting a dairy from scratch, I would get all A2/A2 cattle and make sure to breed with A2/A2 semen or bulls. I read on KAFC that some places on the West coast are able to sell A2 milk at a premium.

I think diversity (your idea about the organic chicken, eggs, etc) may help you make a profit, if managed well, and on that note I would recommend trying to find locations near decent-sized cities with a large health-conscious population that isn't being served.

UPDATE:

My husband talked to someone from the FSA this morning. They told him they couldn't help him yet. He needs schooling and/or experience and they only have 300K to lend (read as "not enough to finance a whole farm.)

They gave him some guidance as to what to do next to make himself a better candidate as well as some things he could do right where we are to get going. He told us there's more money in goats. My husband doesn't care for goats, so he's a little grumpy now.

I'm a little relieved. I'd be all the way relieved if my husband weren't looking for farms already up and running that are for sale...

He knows I'd rather have a diversified homestead-type operation than a business model farm.

We'll see where we go.

You can run a pig business on a couple of acres (read Storey's book). He could do a niche of good meat (like Berks) raised organically. Pigs are actually a lot easier (and cleaner!!) than our cow! :) I like our pigs. :)

there's money in goats if you can get a contract to ship, it's even harder than organic.

I guess I don't know enough about the virtues of organic dairying versus a small scale sustainable (but not certified "organic") diversified dairy farm. On the Horizon website they say they have 2400 cows being milked organically on their corporate farm in Idaho. I am sure the cows are all well cared for and so on but I have to scratch my head at that scale being sustainable overall? Again just raising the question since the red tape for organic is mentioned in several posts. Not meaning to hijack the thread, just skeptical

Why would you think that a small-scale dairy would be any more sustainable than a medium or large scale farm?

Like I wrote, I'm no expert on organic dairying. I guess I was reading something into the the term "organic" that implied smaller scale family farms, just like the term "homesteading" seems to imply smaller scale but as your question points out that may just be flawed reasoning. Maybe bigger is best when it comes to "organic farms" like the Horizon company?

If you buy retail and sell wholesale then plan on losing money.

Another way to lose money (for the small farmer) is to follow everything the government tells you to do. (I'd schedule time to tour the successfull organic dairy's and at least sit down with a few operators/owners and pick their brain. If working for them is not an option)

Regulations: Does the state you plan on starting your Dairy allow raw milk sales? If so then starting a few cows at a time paid for with cash with on farm sales, with eggs, pork etc could be viable.

Diversify: just as you would investments.

A dairy should have some hogs to feed excess milk that is not fit for human consumption.(mortgage lifters) There should be no reason to dump milk and not covert it to pork.

Eggs. Milk is great for chickens. Eggs bring regular customers. (only if on farm sales of raw milk is allowed)

Farmers that are tied to a commodity or a single product do not survive the ups and downs of a market as well as a diversified farm.

As with any business a comprehensive business plan is required. From a mission statement, goals, timeline, qualifications, to an exit strategy.


Lastly, If you are getting state certified to take care of disabled adults.... would it be possible to perhaps provide care onsite? (foster home or etc) Agri-tourism / re-habilitation?

It's very possible to have a compromise somewhere in between.

Remember: "Organic" is a term controlled by the government...... As with anything the government controls be wary.

The Horizon organic dairy is one of those that seem to get away with what most of the rest of us couldn`t or wouldn`t. They are a big corporation that fills a void in the organic market. They also try and push the limit on what is legal in the organic certification. Organic doesn`t mean small by any means. > Thanks Marc