Organic beef
 

What are your views on raising organic beef? Is there really a good/high market for organic raised meat and does it sell for more? Is there a taste difference? what are the pros and cons?

There is a definate market for all 'natural'. It sometimes might take a locality to make it work well? The internet, is a friend to many though.

What makes them organic? No growth stimulants, or hormones? How bout zero injections for disease control? Do you have to raise them from calfhood?

I've seen roping cattle posed as organic, and I've ate them. they were as good as anything else. Seems to me like, anything doing well, is good eats. From cows to calves.

I'm posing this to all organic people, not just you for asking.

Organic really has nothing to do with taste. It is a huge hassle to become certified organic. If you have pasture, your land itself must be certified. If you buy hay or grain it also must be certified organic. As far as increasing value, it depends on location, and how much work you want to put into marketing.

If it's anything like organic chicken, then there is a big taste difference. Personally I have never tried organic beef ( sad fact ), but would love to. Organic chicken tastes alot different than chemical raised chicken.

In my opinion there is little to no taste difference in organic and non organic. There is a huge difference in the taste of pasture/grass fed, non hormone laden animals and the run of the mill store meat. Something being organic is more of a commitment to a certain way of growing things, with government checks and balances. I am all for organically raised food. We live in central Ohio and for us it makes more sense to be comitted to raising grass fed/non hormone/free range livestock than for us to go through all the mess of being certified organic.

Julie

Organic valley gives like a 10 cent premium over conventional price if you ship through them, hardly worth the hassle and organic fees.
If however you can find folks that really believe that organic beef is better and can direct market you may be able to price it where you can make money.

If you are interested this page is from the certifier that does the farm I milk at
http://www.mosesorganic.org/attachme...transbeef.html

And don't ever believe that organic always equals grass fed

Its a really easy question..Do you like chemicals, drugs, and other un natural substances in your food, or do you want it pure?

If it is a matter of becoming certified organic. IMO, waste of money. Just as easy to tell people my animals are clean, however, in some areas, the word 'organic' may as well be GOD, and if it is not 'officially' attached to your product, forget it.

The other possible issue..how are your marketing skills?

For my plans I havent concerned myself with organic too much. If I bought all organic grains and kept my cattle in a barn and fed nothing but organic grains they would be organic beef. But would they be better than conventional beef. Probably not much. Cattle are ruminents and they graze. I use no chemicals or pesticides. I dont medicate my animals unless they are sick. I use no fertilizers except poultry littler. My cows eat nothing but grass. i dont even feed an appreciable amount of hay. But mine would not be considered organic. I did not get my pastures certified.
the $ value of Organic is marketing. If you raise your livestock right, you can market the same way with out government involvement. I dont care too much about the government part. But the money spent to get certified could be better spent improving management and growing the herd. When you can look your customer in the eye and truthfully tell them how their beef was raised, or even have pasture walks to show them. That will do more than any lable could do. Better beef is raised from the ground up not from a government beurocrat and a lable.
I doubt organic chicken tastes any better than properly pastured poultry. The only difference is a lable on their feed.

You've had good answers so far, so I'll not address the other issues. As to the market, yes, there's an excellent market. More and more, people are becoming aware of just how out of whack the food producing system is. These are the people you'll be marketing to. It's not a free ride to profit, you must first have a superior product, but once you do... :bouncy:

organic
 

I know my family will not eat any eggs from the store now since they have eaten the organic from my chickens, and there is a huge demand for them with freinds, they sure taste different...I think think the less crap in the food I and my family eat, the better, I sure buy organic beef if I can find it...

That's just about a perfect answer. As for the taste of organic meat, there is a difference, but it's subjective at best. Organic chicken tends to be a little drier than what you're used to because it's not injected with water and seasoning. Beef tastes about the same. Grass fed/pastured is the the way to go, avoiding chemical resistant/GMO grain.

Agree with LFG on Organic certification. I personally don't feel I need to pay the government to use a word. I can (and do) operate under the organic exemption- as long as I'm under $5,000/year I don't need to be "certified". I encourage all my customers to come to the farm for a visit/inspection. A fella that posts in the pig forum has the best idea yet: http://noweirdstuff.org/

Very well said, my thoughts are about the same, I hate the idea you can trademark ORGANIC. > Thanks Marc

I foil the authorities by calling it "Orgasmic"..........

I like the no weird stuff thing.

Actually if you are eating organic eggs, chances are you have more crap in the eggs and that is why they taste better.

true if youmean balanced omega three's and CLA, as well as protein among other things. :happy:

Just note when at the store or what ever the organic lable means little when it comes to quality. Some commercial egg producers offer free range eggs from chickens that have access to a small yard that they never go to because it is too far from their feeder. The big guys play lots of tricks to make a fancy label that is government approved. Most of those tricks have little to do with a quality end product for you.

Is that a national or state thing?

Edit: nvm, found it.

I think you would have a much better market doing all natural & grass fed/finished than organic grain finished. We get some customers that don't want all the junk in the meat but a large percentage want the healthier effects of grass fed beef, not to mention, that's the way God made cows to live.... on grass.

This can get fairly complicated and it takes some effort to become educated. Most consumers don’t care. The few that do care are often misinformed.

Beef Cattle spend most of their lives on pasture. When they are close to slaughter they are put on a grain diet. Some cattle get an implant into their ear that contains a hormone that stimulated eating. It is practically unheard of for any beef farmer, large or small, to add medications to cattle feed.

Pasture raised cattle taste different because the feed differences from the cattle that were finished on grain.

The huge egg factories do not add medications to the feed. It’s against the law. Poultry houses don’t give chickens hormones either.

To many consumers, the idea of free range chickens sounds good. Many huge chicken operations have adapted to provide free range chickens. The taste difference from store bought chickens and the ones you raise is mostly because of the longer time it took you to get the chickens up to butcher weight.

Some huge egg factories have adapted to cage-less buildings. Costs them more in labor to gather the eggs and there are a lot more that must grade out commercial because so many get laid on the building’s floor.

Cattle raised organic have no fewer chemicals in them than commercially produced beef. A Laboratory can test samples all day long and they won’t find any un-natural chemicals. It’s the same for lots of food. Just because an apple tree gets sprayed does not mean that there is a chemical on them or in them. Just isn’t so.

My home raised Angus steer tastes better than what the store sells. But that is because the store is often selling meat from old dairy cows or spent bulls.

Much of this is marketing. Some people raise Scottish Highlander cattle and cite their lower cholesterol levels. With proper diet, you can get the same results from most other breeds of cattle.

The brighter yokes from your home raised hens is due mostly in their lower production levels, not because they had lots of sunshine or ate lots of insects.

Organic is worth it if you can sell the idea to the consumers.

I am sorry, but you dear are one who is sadly mis informed.

Commercial beef cattle spend their lives on a feed lot. Mostly they are dairy steers, yes, but they start in a calf hut given replacer and grain ration and then move to a barn or feed lot style, depending on what part of the country you are in and are fed a TMR (total mixed ration) until finishing. You won't find herds of thousands of commercial beefers anywhere in the country grazing their happy lives away.

The taste difference in commercial poultry and home grown poultry does have to do with the age, in some cases, but plenty of people, (including us) raise commercial poultry at home and they taste better. Mostly because they are outside. Butcher age is relatively the same.
Commercial meat birds and so called cage free hens are raised without access to sunlight and that plays a big part in flavor.

When you spray an apple tree, the apple absorb the spray through the skin. It isn't an impermeable barrier.

Highlanders do have lower cholesterol levels due to less marbleing.

AND the yolks of eggs become yellow one of two ways, either corn or green things, more green things. Look at the egg of a home raised free range bird. In about January all the yolks fade to pale, and in May, they are dark yellow again. Production levels have nothing to do with it. Most home raise hens lay everyday or twice in three days. Commercial birds don't have higher production levels than an egg a day. The average high producing hen lays once every 25 hours.

Surely with all the things you learn on this site and the lenthgy-ness of your posts, in most cases, you would think you would know these simple facts, unless of course you posted these comments to get someones hackles up. In that case, it worked, I don't want some newbie to be so badly mis informed.

From the consumer's point of view, hormones, antibiotics and pesticides are the concern, some are more educated about corn finishing and grass fed answers that issue. The further away one gets from the source, the more certification seems necessary to satisfy the trust issue. The carrying capacity of your ground will tell you if you can make it work economically. Buying organic feed would probably wipe out any profit unless you've got a large operation, and you'll be subject to market fluctuations way beyond your control.

Local co-ops seem to satisfy health issues with beef eaters. I think people want a naturally raised pastured animal; it's the feed lots that are repulsive, organic or not.

Speaking of mis-information, let's clear this up some more:

Commercial beef cattle spend their lives on a feed lot. Mostly they are dairy steers, yes, but they start in a calf hut given replacer and grain ration and then move to a barn or feed lot style, depending on what part of the country you are in and are fed a TMR (total mixed ration) until finishing. You won't find herds of thousands of commercial beefers anywhere in the country grazing their happy lives away.

While dairy beefers might seldom or never see pasture, most commercial beef animals spend waaaay more of their life grazing than in the feed lot. For the first 7-8 months of life, beef calves are on pasture/range with their mothers. After weaning, they will typically be sold and run as "stockers", again on pasture, or crop residue like corn stalks. When they have achieved some growth and gain on that grazing, they will be sold again and THAT'S when they typically enter the feedlot. They will generally only be there 90-120 days before they are finished and harvested.

Another bit of misinformation given above is about implants for beefers. They do NOT contain an appetite stimulant, they contain a growth hormone. This is naturally occurring and young creatures have more of it. As they get older they produce less of it, which is why they grow slower than they did as young calves. So the implants give them a boost of it to enhance the growth they can achieve from their feed.

Good points. I'll add, too, that MOST beef is not from dairy cattle. The nation's dairy herd is about 9 million; our beef herd is about 90 million. Yes, most dairy cattle wind up as beef, but they are a small part of the beef market.

http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htm

Must be where all that 'certified' angus corn fed yuck comes from. Certified in what and by whom?
I'll take my own any day.

That Angus "yuck" that sells about a BILLION pounds a year? Amazing, isn't it that people are willing to pay a premium over and over for that yukky stuff! :boring:

Good that you eat your own beef; probably can't sell it anyway.

But don't try to tell us that most beef in the supermarket is dairy or lives its life in the feedlot. It's simply not true.

Certified Angus Beef is worthy of a whole 'nother thread. Basically, if you are black hided and grade choice, you must have been Angus, so you can be labeled CAB. Back when the program started, that was true, but as the years rolled on and more and more cattle breeds have turned black, the parameters of the program were not changed. So it's a bit of a wink, wink, nod, nod on the general public.

Virtually all the cattle within 300 miles of me are on pasture most of their lives. In the winter they get hay. To suplemant the hay, a few get silage and a bit of grain, but it is mostly a grass diet. This goes for the Holstein steers, too. Dairy cows is a different topic, they get plenty of grain to boost milk production. There may be places in the country where cattle grow up in a feed lot, but I’ve never seen it.

Those thousands of commercial feeders you speak of are brought in from open range and finished in a feed lot.

You and I can agree to disagree that sunlight changes the flavor of poultry.
Pesticides sprayed on apple trees do not soak into the apple. Laboratory results can prove this. Even the spray on the surface breaks down and is not present when you pick the apple. When you polish an apple, you are not wiping pesticides off.

You can increase the marbling in Highlanders by increasing the protein in their diet. You can reduce the marbling in Angus by decreasing the protein in their diet. There is a genetic predisposition, but diet makes a huge difference.

Most home raised chickens lay fewer eggs in the winter and more in the spring. It has to do with available daylight. You will note that when fewer eggs are laid, the yoke color gets brighter. Higher producing birds will lose some yellow color in their feet. Commercial egg operations are designed to optimize production. Most home raised hens do not produce an egg a day or three in two days.

I seldom post to rile people up. I rail against misinformation. I once believed much of the things you now believe. But over the years, I’ve discovered it just isn’t true.

We are doing a disservice to Newbies by perpetuating these myths. Big farms aren’t evil. All the animals on small farms are not healthy. Organic can be a goal or a marketing gimmick. Better to know the truth about chemicals so you can make informed choices.

I have noticed that black animals go for way more at the auction house. I guess when I said dairy steers, I was thinking fast food hamburgers, rather than grocery prime cuts.
I know what I meant inside my brain.

Pesticides sprayed on apple trees do not soak into the apple. Laboratory results can prove this. Even the spray on the surface breaks down and is not present when you pick the apple. When you polish an apple, you are not wiping pesticides off.

Really? I could have swore the gentleman who owns the big orchard here, whom we get cider pressings from for our pigs said he sprays fungicides regularly and you have to or the trees go to pot. He says that bitter film they wash off when they bring in the apples is fungicide. Go figure!

Most home raised chickens lay fewer eggs in the winter and more in the spring. It has to do with available daylight. You will note that when fewer eggs are laid, the yoke color gets brighter.

I can't say I have ever noticed this phenomenon. I will have to pay close attention this fall. May not work though, as my hens lay heavy until after Christmas, and then the yellow starts to fade.

Most home raised hens do not produce an egg a day or three in two days.

I think they probably do, most especially in the smaller flocks. Most heritage breeds lay every day, at least in the spring/summer. I wasn't factoring in the winter averages and no supplemental lighting.

I once believed much of the things you now believe. But over the years, I’ve discovered it just isn’t true.

The things I posted about apples and poultry are based on personal experience, since we raise and sell meat, retail, I think I have a clue.

SOME big farms aren’t evil. SOME of the animals on small farms are not healthy. Organic can be a goal or a marketing gimmick. Better to know the truth about chemicals so you can make informed choices.

In this, slightly altered, I agree.

I gotta disagree on this one:

Most home raised chickens lay fewer eggs in the winter and more in the spring. It has to do with available daylight. You will note that when fewer eggs are laid, the yoke color gets brighter. Higher producing birds will lose some yellow color in their feet. Commercial egg operations are designed to optimize production. Most home raised hens do not produce an egg a day or three in two days.

Yes, my hens lay fewer eggs in the winter time because I don't give them artificial light. However, those egg yolks are paler. The difference is laying mash is about all they have to eat in winter. When they are getting green shoots, seeds, bugs, etc., the yolks darken. It might just be the beta carotene, will have to do some research there, but the length of time between eggs doesn't affect the yolk color in my experience.

Not quite true.

Haypoint - What you said in quotes is not necessarily wrong as most home raised hens are not the same breed as the commercial egg laying houses - however if you get a breed that is a high production layer and "home raise" it it will produce the almost 1 egg a day. My daughter got 25 chickens from the 4H program - golden comets - these chickens lay approximately 300 eggs a year with no special treatment other than having a calcium source. Granted this production level is pretty much only good for around a year give or take a few months before it slowly starts to drop off (thank god). My wife the detail oriented person she is kept a record of how many eggs a day the chickens were laying - she did this for about 9 months before a computer crash caused her to lose her records but we were on track for the 6,000 eggs anticipated from the 25 chickens.

The commercial houses have it down to a science OFC and get rid of the layers after their production starts to drop.

CAB program is a grade above prime and the animals are not simply black hided and not every feedlot and slaughter house is licensed to label their product as CAB certified.

I do think all the hormones and all of the feed that is stuffed in the animals in that last 90-200 days of their lives does in some way pass through to the consumers however I think that that is one of the least of the concerns that the vast majority (including myself) have to worry about.

I believe that all of the sugar, carbs, calories, and chemicals that go into what most of us eat in our processed foods should be of a much greater concern than our meat.

We all have to start somewhere however and each of us have to make our own decisions.

What else do I believe - I believe that the government has changed organic into something that factory farms can also get into with out being truly any better for the livestock nor the consumer.

Knowing where and what is on your food is only truly possible if you know the farmers raising your food or you do it yourself - both of which more of us should strive to do.

I don't think the government set up organic for big business, I think big business found ways to meet the government requirements.

Years ago, being organic had no set standard. Then there were several standards. The Government brought all those differing standards together and with public input, developed the current standard. Some find the standard too low. Many find the standard too high. Some want a double standard just to satisfy their anti-big business bias.

3 eggs in two days isn't 250 a year. An egg a day isn't 259 a year. Home raised chickens do not produce eggs at the same rate as confinement hens do.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion. Too bad your hens don't. My hens lay an egg a day, during the peak months of april to roughly november, then slack off a bit to one egg in 2 or 3 days, depending on the age of the bird. I use supplemental lighting, and the hens lay year around.

I have both heritage breeds and commercial layers. My commercial layers lay daily, even in their second year.
They slow a little in late summer and in jan-march, but not much. When they molt, sometimes they are gone, sometimes I keep them for round two.

Lonelyfarmgirl wrote, “Most home raise hens lay everyday or twice in three days.”
SCRancher wrote, “we were on track for the 6,000 eggs anticipated from the 25 chickens.”
Check my math, but an egg a day will give you more than 6,000 eggs from 25 chickens and those home raised hens aren’t dropping an egg a day.
If you are buying your chicken feed and getting fewer eggs than a commercial operation, you’ll need to get a premium price for your eggs. The commercial operations has the edge on both feed costs and productivity.
If you promote your egg sales on the fact that they are free range, not fed hormones, not fed antibiotics, then you will fail when the public realizes that commercial hens aren’t fed hormones or antibiotics and some are now on free range. There are even huge commercial operations that comply with organic standards and can afford to be certified organic.
Might be better to promote your products based on locally grown sentiment. The big operations can’t duplicate that.
But, back to organic beef.
There has been a lot of talk on grass fed beef. Since most beef is grass fed most of their lives, the only difference is that grass fed beef miss out on the fattening portion of their lives, just before slaughter. Most folks are used to the taste of grain finished beef and object to the dryer meat that is missing the marbling. Some consumers are drawn to grass fed beef because it is healthier, contains less fat. But in truth, once they try it, most prefer the less healthy, but tender beef they grew up with.
Raising cattle on organic pasture isn’t so hard. Finding organic hay might present challenges, especially if you are demanding certified organic hay. The more difficult part would be finding organic corn and soybeans for that final 6 to 8 weeks. Most corn and soybeans are GMO. The few acres that is not GMO, isn’t likely to be certified organic. You’ll pay a lot more for certified organic, non-GMO, corn and soybeans. You can raise your beef without the hormone implant, many people do. How do you handle medications when a cow gets sick? Are you going to administer wormer to rid your animals of parasites?
Marketing is the key here. You should earn more for your beef steer by local marketing than you would earn at an auction. But that takes more effort. If you are selling 20 pounds of organic ground beef for $4.00 a pound and I can pick up a Holstein steer at auction and grind it up in 20 pound containers, I can pull most of your customer base by selling locally grown hamburger for $2.50 a pound.

I would like to see you pull my customer base. My customers don't want dairy beef. I am not certified organic, and I get $4.50. I see ads here on craigslist all the time for beef and pork way cheaper than ours, and I sure haven't lost a single customer over it.
I started 3 years ago at $3.25. When I raised the price 3 different times, my customers didn't blink an eye. It's because they know excellent product when they see and taste it.
And no one has bacon as good as ours. Not to brag or anything, but, well, our bacon is the best. Sorry, tangent.

In the comment about the laying amounts, you failed to also include where I said I wasn't taking into account the lack of supplemental lighting, since not everyone uses lights, or winter averages. I was referring to peak months.

Yes my math skills were a little off when I typed that - thanks for pointing that out. Our chickens were on track to product around 300 eggs each per year which is 7500 eggs.

However your blanket statement that home raised chickens can not match commercial chickens is simply a false statement - there is nothing magical about a large commercial operation. I WILL GRANT that the vast majority of home raised chickens are NOT going to come close to a commercial operation - I agree with this. But that is NOT what you said therefor I had to disagree - it is possible to raise chickens at home that produce the same quantity with better quality at home. You can give them access to fine pasture + free choice complete feed and manipulate the amount of light they receive and produce what a commercial operation produces.
Most home raised chickens however are either not the correct type of breeds and/or are not managed for maximum production but that is because it's simply not that important to the owners. My chickens are far too old to have high production anymore because my family is attached to them therefor they are not going into a stew pot to be replaced with new laying stock.

Then you have no idea of what organic is and how it works.
Organic was being encroached by anyone that could see the money to be made by using the label. So people made a fuss and got the govt involved. People wrote the rules and the govt approved them.
But lo and behold, big farms could and would follow the new organic rules because they weren't too difficult and somewhat vague and organic was worth the money.
So the people went back and just recently got revisions made.
Organic has always been about what the smaller producers want.