Opinions on these Dexters
 

I am not a real good judge on cattle yet, so I thought I would ask opinions on these girls. I think the price is very reasonable. From talking to them, they are getting out of cattle.

http://http://wichita.craigslist.org/grd/2444510149.html

sounds like a smokin good price to me. Do you have a quarantine area to keep them for a few weeks while you worm them and vacinate. Seems at that price th eoriginal owner doesnt like something about them. $600 per cow calf pair is cheap for any breed. $200 for a weened bull is ridiculus cheap. Brobably bring $500 or more at the sale barn. I am guessing a weened steer is at least 400 lbs. 4 cwt steers here bring $1.43 to $1.67=$568.00on the cheap side.

Hey El Dorado is only 200 miles from here. I might just need one of those $300 heifers.

They look nice, good price. It says one cow is short, she may have Chondrodysplasia (dwarfism). There is a test for it, maybe they have tested them. I would certainly ask.

Short is good for an all grass diet.

Hey....back off!!!!:angel: I know the price seems quite good to me. I was thinking more than that for just the cow w/o the calf. I'm just hoping I can come up with the cash in time. I talked to the guy about steers, and he is willing to let a couple of the ones go he was going to keep for 1.15 a lb. From him talking, it just sounds like they don't have enough time for them anymore. He called one a long legged dexter, I haven't heard of them.

Long legged Dexters have more dairy type build than a short legged Dexter. I don't believe that long legged Dexters carry the Chondrodysplasia gene. Sounds like a good price and they look like nice cows.

Borrow the money!! Can't go wrong at those prices, but the pic of the back end of one black cow shows what looks like one huge quarter. She might have udder troubles.ck

Are you looking to milk them? I don't like the look of the udder on Laini or Gracie - can't see the others. These cows are ADCA registered so you can get a better look there.

Also, I would want a PHA test before buying because they all have Aldebaran Priapus in their pedigrees. That doesn't mean that they are carriers, but it does mean you can't automatically assume they are not.

At those prices, I'd snatch them up as fast as I could get them.

I could only see one possible problem rear quarter and that may not be a problem. My original milker, DD has one rear quarter that is larger than the rest. She still freshens with a good milking udder. Dexters are not noted for good udders because of the trend for breeding for beef instead of a dual purpose animal. I have tried to AI my cows to bulls noted for dairy qualities. At this price you can buy them and breed them to an Angus bull. They will raise beef calves that will sell at a good price.

Wouldn't they have birthing problems being breed to an Angus?

is this a condition related to the size of the animals "bull hood" so to speak? Sorry , I had to google it and I did not find any info other than some stuff about mythology relating to anatomical sizes for men and gods.
If this is infact the condition, is it problematic in bulls?

From the ADCA website at www.dextercattle.com:

PHA (Pulmonary Hypoplasia with Anasarca): Pulmonary Hypoplasia indicates incomplete formation of the lungs. Anasarca indicates an accumulation of fluids in tissues and body cavities. PHA‐affected calves are either aborted or stillborn. Because of the anasarca, the PHA calf may be tremendously swollen which would make delivery exceedingly difficult and potentially life threatening for the cow. The PHA affected calf occurs when the PHA gene is inherited from both the sire and the dam. If only one of the parents carry the gene, the calf will appear normal, but can carry the PHA gene.

The statistics are similar to the chondrodysplasia carriers. When both parents are PHA carriers, there is a 1 in 4 chance of a PHA (dead) calf; a 1 in 4 chance of a non PHA carrier; and a 2 in 4 chance of producing PHA carrier calves. When a PHA non‐carrier is bred to a PHA carrier, the chances are 50% of producing a PHA carrier and 50% of producing a PHA non‐carrier.

It is possible for a chondrodysplasia non‐carrier to carry PHA. It is possible for a chondrodysplasia carrier to also carry PHA. The two genes do not appear to be related.

Testing give the breeder the knowledge of his animals’ genetic status so that he/she can make appropriate decisions on breeding practices. By breeding non‐carriers to carriers, you can avoid the dead calf and potential damage to the cow. By gradually eliminating PHA carriers from your herds, you can build a herd that doesn’t carry this lethal gene. Unlike the chondrodysplasia carrier, PHA carriers cannot be identified visually. PHA carriers may be either long or short legged animals.

PHA is a condition that was recently introduced into the US Dexter breed through the line of a single bull, Aldebaren Priapus, whose mother brought it here from England. Only descendents of Aldebaren Priapus's mother, Woodmagic Wheatear, can carry it.

Not all of the descendents of that line carry it. In fact, not very many do. But the consequences of breeding two carriers of PHA together introduces a small chance that the calf will be born dead and the life of the cow will be endangered.

There are no visible indicators of the condition. Only a $25 DNA test can reveal whether a Priapus descendent actually carries it or not.

Since you will only be buying females, you can make certain to only use a PHA free bull to breed them to. That will eliminate the possibility of a PHA calf.

Like chondrodysplasia, there are no detrimental effects to being a carrier. The only danger lies in breeding two carriers together. Many of the most noteworthy Dexters have been chondro carriers. It's at the very roots of the breed. That's what made them so small.

PHA has no redeeming features. It is a recent mutation. It is almost the same as the PHA that is found in Maine-Anjou and Shorthorn cattle, but is not related.

With chondro, there are actually some sought-after benefits of carrying the gene. Smaller size, gentle temperament and excellent beef.

I'd avoid breeding Dexter cows to Angus bulls. The danger of a difficult birth by doing that carries a greater danger than any other, simply due to the increased size of the calf created by such a cross. While some have done it successfully, some have not.

Every breed has it's own little idiosynchrosies (sp). Before selecting a breed, any breed, you should check out the pitfalls to avoid.

Dexter breeders have been confronted with PHA choices for about 2 years, now. One popular way to deal with it is to only use a PHA free bull and make beef of any calves that prove to be carriers.

Dexter beef is the best beef you can get. You might as well get to taste it.

None of our Dexters had a problem birthing when bred to an Angus.

linn, this is not directed solely at you and perhaps this is not the thread to say this, but it really disturbs me when I learn that more and more people are crossing their Dexter cows with other breeds, particularly larger breeds. Yes, perhaps the non-chondro carriers can safely deliver larger calves, but I consider this a disservice to the Dexter breed, a registered breed, known for its small size, a breed that until fairly recently was considered "rare." People want more milk, more beef, more whatever and instead of accepting what the Dexter offers as is, they feel a need to make it milkier and beefier.

Just have to get this said!!!

THANK YOU!!! Well said !

Some people want a beefier calf out of a cow that eats less and has a good temperment.
If it works for them then so what? The animal is terminal anyways. There are registered dexters out there for those that want them.

Sorry to disturb you, but they are my cows and if I want to breed them to an easy calver Angus I will. My Dexters are never bred to a bull that would cause them problems calving. These cows are my girls and they are all big pets. The calves are small at birth and grow like weeds. They also possess the vigor of a crossbred. Many times they sell right along with the pure Angus calves. To assume that just because a Dexter cow is bred to an Angus they will have calving problems is erroneous. The majority of Angus bulls are easy calvers anyway. People breed Jerseys to Angus bulls everyday without someone getting upset about it. I don't raise registered livestock. I am not in the business of supplying a niche market. If I were I would probably AI my Dexters to a Dexter bull every time they were bred. In my opinion, only the best of the breed should perpetuate the line, otherwise you get indifferent results. We run a beef herd and I also raise a few family cows that don't mind one way or another if their calf is half Angus. Dexters might have been considered rare a couple of decades ago, but that is no longer the case. That being said I do have Dexter semen that I use when I want to, and when I do, I use some of the best Dexter bulls, not a Dexter bull I bought from somebody to breed my cows just because he was a Dexter.

I wonder....prior to the parentage DNA requirement for Dexters how many of these Dexter/Angus cross calves that were not terminal have ended up being registered or sold as "polled" Dexters in the past?

there are always going to be liers out there, no matter the breed or cross

Well that is not my problem since I don't sell these crossbred calves as polled Dexters. Anyone who has seen a Dexter/Angus crossbred knows that the majority of these calves grow bigger than a purebred Dexter, so your implication doesn't hold water. Do your homework when buying purebred stock, I did. Besides that, if you are paying for registered stock, you should receive the registration papers with the parents' name right on the certificate. You cannot force your prejudices on other people and such a statement doesn't carry any kind of weight against crossbreeding. I wonder how many Zebra/Horse hybrids were sold as striped horses before some wise and all knowing individual pointed it out to those poor gullible buyers?

Well, I knew that was coming, LOL. Linn, I’ve always had the opinion from reading your posts that you take good care of your cattle; and, indeed, you are right – they ARE your cows and you can breed them to anything you want. But Angus EPDs are not gospel and I know of no one who recommends the practice of covering Dexter cows with large breed bulls (the average weight of a mature Angus bull is approximately 2500 pounds, more than twice that of most Dexter bulls); it places the cow and her calf at risk, both at breeding and at calving.

I can’t address your comments about crossing Jerseys with Angus bulls because I know little about them. I’d guess they are about the size of a large, HN (non-carrier of Chondrodysplasia) Dexter. I haven’t ever seen Jerseys listed with the ALBC though.

I believe Dexters were regarded as rare or on the “watch” list until about 2004, when the split in the Dexter associations occurred. They are now listed by the ALBC as “recovering.” With two competing registries, it’s possible that the numbers are overlapping. Who knows what the actual Dexter count in America is? There are deceased animals still listed in the registry, further distorting the numbers.

May I ask, when you breed with Dexter semen, do you register the offspring? If your purebred stock is good, it would be a shame to see their genetics go off into oblivion.

Me too. I just sold mine for $1000 each. Just about killed me but I don't have tome for them right now and were sold to a really good home.

No I don't because my original cow was not registered when I bought her. She was however from a herd of all Dexters, so there was no chance of her being anything but a Dexter. The lady has run a Dexter herd for years, but does not register the offspring. I have two daughters out of my original cow, one out of Lucifer and one out of Circle H's Frederick. As I said, I don't sell registered cattle. These girls are my pets as well as raising great calves whether pure Dexter or crossbreds.
Angus bulls are regularly used on Angus heifers, which are not that much bigger than a grown Dexter cow. Our bulls are all easy calvers, we know that from experience. When a bull gets huge it is time to sell him anyway. None of our bulls weigh 2,500 lbs. Black Angus bulls are known for calving ease.

http://www.angus.org/Nce/Documents/CedCemEpd.pdf

Linn, I wasn't specifically referring to what your practices are, I was merely speculating that there are some polled Dexters floating around that were not sired by a Dexter bull, but rather an Angus or a Lowline Angus bull. Have a look at some Lowline Angus such as this link:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...wline_bull.jpg

Tell me this bull wouldn't produce, with a Dexter cow, a very Dexter looking polled calf.

Until the ADCA required parentage verification of the sire, it can be nearly impossible to verify.

I have to agree that if your registered Dexters have good genetics, it would be a shame if they were lost because they were only used with Angus bulls during their lifetime. And unless you've found a special bull that only produces bull calves, this means even the crossbreed heifers that are born on your farm are terminal as well?
Fortunately there is now a requirement that any Dexters that will be registered must have the bull's DNA available for parentage verification, which should reduce the possibility of the wrong sire for those that have multiple Dexter bulls, or in the worst case, mischief on the part of the breeder who is using a Lowline Angus bull on their Dexter cows to obtain polled calves.

But why would someone deliberately sell a crossbred calf as a polled Dexter? I understand that there have been some claims by some people of that happening many years ago, but I am not about to open that can of worms here. LOL I know from experience that it can cause a mini war. Our crossbred calves grow out so well that when we send them through the sale barn, the managers just group them with the other calves. I guess you could say that the reverse deception might be true, if we said that they were not half Dexter. However, we make no claim as to what these calves are out of and they sell really well, right along with the other calves. So far we have not kept any of the crossbred heifers for brood cows, they are sold as feeder calves. I was tempted to keep one as she grew out to be a beautiful big heifer. However, DH foiled my plans and sent her to the sale barn. Nobody could have mistaken her for a purebred Dexter. On the contrary, they probably thought she was mostly Angus.

Lakeport, You cannot register a polled Dexter calf unless at least one of the parents is polled. The polled gene is not recessive. That means to get a polled calf, the owner of for example, a registered purebred horned Dexter cow would have to have used, and would have the AI or natural service breeding slip from a polled Dexter bull or own the polled Dexter bull). Why would anyone want to use an Angus to get polled and pass it off as a Dexter, when it is easy enough to breed for a polled Dexter? They are not rare.
Animals whose paperwork has not been kept up, (unless private records have been kept and can be proven with DNA testing, with an owner willing to go to those lengths) however worthy, have already been lost to the breed.ck

Not to mention lowline angus are more $ then dexters. If anyone would be lying, it would be people selling the dexter crosses as pure lowline. I have seen that happen, but without registration papers, you get what you see.

Yabbut, if your Dexter isn't registered, there's no benefit to staying strictly purebred so why not try for beefier or milkier?. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure their studbook is closed so you can't breed your way in. OTOH, if I look outside the Dexter breed, I have local access to high-quality mini-jersey semen with which to dairy up my calves, and my cousin has been breeding his beef cows to a dexter-cross bull to bring down their frame size a bit while maintaining their beefiness. Which is working fabulously, by the way, they're like little beef bricks :) I do understand the concern about breeding to bigger bulls, but done wisely it can bring really good results. In my (admittedly limited) experience, Dexters seem to outcross amazingly well, the calves consistently surpassing their parents.

As to the OP, if they are healthy and I could find them here at that price, I'd find the money. I often see them for nearly twice that.

Ok, you all just keep crossing away, and in the meantime I'll be pulling the hairs of our Dexter bull, cows, heifers, and calves to send in for DNA testing to verify their parentage, rather than just the sire's, as is required now.

Just a little over a year ago, I could request a registration for a Dexter calf without ANY proof that it came from a Dexter bull and/or cow. It has tightened up now (somewhat) with parentage verification of the sire, but there is still the opportunity for deception on the dam's side. And parentage verification is only successful if the owner of the calf (heifer or bull) pulls hairs and compares the results, which is not commonly done.

As the Dexter breed becomes more common and the push for larger and larger Dexters continues, it also has the opportunity to become more diluted without this testing (thank God for the availability of it), and in my opinion, further verification. It's going to get awfully expensive for us Dexter owners with larger herds to do all the testing every year. And we're going to have to compete with your "almost" Dexters on price if we're trying to sell a heifer to somebody interested in the breed, that may be looking for Dexter attributes but not so interested in purity. There is no way that all of the crossed heifers are going to be terminal, along with the bulls. Pretty soon, for all but the most determined owners or breeders or those who are in it to lose money, they'll give up.

I understand the polled situation, and the opportunity to register polled calves has been shut off, I was merely speculating that a number of years ago, the sudden proliferation of polled Dexters came from the very practice of crossing with Angus combined with a lack of oversight on registrations. Unfortunate...

In my opinion these crossbred heifers may be used as brood cows but just that beef brood cows. I am not going to quit keeping my Dexters just because I can't register them. Those of you who have regisitered Dexters usually get more monety for them. If I were to sell one of mine, the only reason she would be expensive is because she was a pet, not that I was trying to compete with the registered market. In any breed there are many unregistered animals that are sometimes crossbred with another breed. I am not pushing for larger Dexters, but I can sell a Dexter/Angus cross for more money than a pure Dexter would bring, unless it was a family milk cow. I can't afford to keep my Dexters around without making some money on them, unlike the lady where I bought my first cow, I don't have the money to keep a Dexter herd for a hobby.

Sounds like the woman I work for...Mid Missouri by any chance?

Curtis....I hesitated about giving my opinion, but that same man called me about trading one of those cows and her calf for our Dexter bull and we went to see them. They were "ok" as Dexters go. One cow though, the one with the dun heifer calf is EXTREMELY short and her udder was extremely lopsided where the calf was only nursing one side and they weren't milking out the other side and it was just about dragging the ground, so do look them over and look for mastitis. I can't say I was overly impressed with them and declined his offer, but you may like them better. The bull was none too impressive either that he bred them to. I've seen far better quality.

The poor OP...we kind of got off track here. The only advice I can offer would be to make sure those Craigs List cows have valid registrations and are healthy. Buy them, take them home, and test them for PHA...the sales price more than makes up for the transfer of registration ($20 each) or the PHA testing price ($27 each).

As for the rest of this thread, I still think it's unfortunate that so many Dexters are not being registered. Linn, your initial purchase might have been able to be registered, and, in my opinion, it's a shame the breeder you purchased from did not care enough to do so.

I firmly believe that if you buy into a registered (rare, recovering, or heritage) breed, you have a responsibility to register the offspring that will be used for breeding. As for crossing with other breeds, please do so with caution and full awareness of the possible outcome...not just to the animal(s) involved but to the history of the breed.

Northwest MO.

Lakeport, Purebred Dexters will never be (or need to complete) in the same market as an unregistered Dexter or a crossbred. Until recent years, purebred registration was always done on the honor system, and did pretty darn well. Purebred breeders were and are for the most part honest ethical people. It is possible, without going outside the breed, to breed with the emphasis on larger, beefier, polled or smaller or more dairy according to your preference. There is no need to cheat. If you are registering a calf, it has always been necessary to have the sire and dam information, the registration papers in order, and the stud certificate signed. Where is this "sudden proliferation" of supposedly Angus sired Dexters from "a number of years ago? Do you have herd book registration numbers, showing polled Dexter calves that did not descend from (polled import) Saltaire Platinum? I guess you did say you were speculating.
The opportunity to register polled Dexters has not been "shut off". I believe most people breeding purebred Dexters are in it for the love of it, not for money.ck
Edited to Add: Apologies to the OP for thread hijack.