Thoughts from a want to be cow owner
 

I know I can search this forum for answers to questions, but I don't know know what all I need to know, lol.

Here goes (and if y'all happen to see a post similar to this on the pig forum, it's because we're thinking pigs too)....


We have about two acres of pasture and by the time we are financially able to buy a cow, we'll have four horses on it. The horses are out on the field about 10-12 hours a day. We've always fed hay and any feed/grain, so we've never expected our land to sustain critters.

Any cow we buy will be sharing pasture with these guys. Any concerns regarding this setup?

I'm going back and forth on this one, as we want both meat and milk. We go through about a gallon a day, plus we buy butter and cheese (a LOT of cheese).
1. Buy a meat breed and milk once a day, knowing we'll get less milk but not be tied to two necessary milkings. Continue to buy butter and cheese.
2. Buy a dairy cow, know we're tied to two milkings a day and we'll recieve gallons per day. Make butter and cheese and have all the milk we need. Feed any left over after that to chickens and a future pig?


Also, what sort of price (and I know it's area dependent, but this gives me an idea since cattle rarely pop up in ads around here) should I expect to pay for either animal in the above scenarios?


Anything anyone would like to add that i've not thought of, please feel free. I'm just looking for a way to have more control over the quality of what we eat and maybe save a little money in the end.

Thanks.

feeding an animal on a feedlot is not going to save you any money in the end.

Find a good grazing type dairy animal.Like a Milking shorthorn or Normande. They will give you less per day and require less input.
Our Normande crosses are putting out 40 pounds a day on nothing but pasture. They grow out well and will provide lots of beef. More than a Holstein and way more than a Jersey.

That's one heck of a good 2 acre pasture if it will support 4 horses and a cow.

I've got really good 2 acres of irrigated pasture and it will support 2 cows if they get hay bought for the winter.

Any time we had horses with cows, the horses would chase the cows around the pasture and wear them out.

I would expect four horses to eat your field down to dirt. In my mind, it would be the horses or the cow, but not both.

Personally, I would not run the horses and cow together in such a small area. Especially, once the cow has a calf. I know of too many horses and donkeys that have killed calves.

Some beef cows make real nice milk cows, or a try crossbred, one of the nicest milk cows I've ever seen was an Angus Jersey cross. Some smaller Jerseys don't produce huge amounts (some do, though). Dexters are nice dual purpose cattle. There are so many options when it comes to milking.

Horses and cows don't generally mix well unless you have a really large pasture so they can graze at opposite ends. Four horses and one cow on a 2 acre field is too many animals in too small a space. I definitely wouldn't put pigs in with cows. The pigs will harass the cow and even bite her udder causing ripped teats and possibly mastitis.

The horses will also crowd the water trough and keep the cows from drinking if they feel like it. I had a gelding that would trot from hay pile to hay pile just to keep the cows from eating. He wouldn't eat anything until the cows gave up.

You would be better off fencing a section for the cow, but with such a small space you'll most likely end up feeding all of them hay year round.

No pigs would be in the field- just horses and a cow. (well, two ponies and two horses).

I said in my first post that i've never expected our land to support any animal, as we've always hayed and grained- year round. 15-20 bucks for a 4x5 roundbale.

For water, we have a trough (could have two if we needed it) and a creek that flows year round (yay!) at the back of the pasture. The pasture itself is looooong and narrow, with a large run in shed.

The horses come in during the day in the summer and in at night in the winter. Would it be feasible to do the same (in opposite order, of course) with a cow? And calf?

A good friend has both cattle and horses (mini, pony and full size) together on about 9 acres- several cattle and several horses, with just a pond for water and round bales for feed. His method of cow care would best be called benign neglect- they get hay and water and that's it. No meds or grain or anything else. His beef is also the DRIEST i've ever eaten. Last time we cooked out together, I took over the grill and didn't cook the burgers past medium well in hopes of making them easier to choke down ;)


Actually, price of beef (coupled with 'what the heck's in THIS anyway?) is what got me thinking about this. Occasionally ground beef will be on sale for 1.99 a lb. Any other cuts run 3.50 a lb or more.

Thanks guys, keep 'em coming. :)

Forgot to say:

Milk is 4.80-7.00 a gallon here, depending on the brand and where you buy it.

you're not going to produce much milk or meat on horse hay.
A growing or lactating animal will require a bit more nutrition.
I wouldn't expect to raise animals on 20 dollar round bales

Our ponies were always worse to chase the cows than our horses. The other posters are right, you will have too many animals on two acres. One horse by itself is plenty for two acres in our area. You will have nothing but compacted dirt before long. I don't mean to sound hateful, but trying to give you a little heads up.

A Blivet is 10 pounds of manure in a 5 pound bag. That's what you're trying to do.

The name for 2 acres with that many animals on it is a feedlot. It is not self sustaining. Within a short time, it will be a patch of bare ground and every bit of feed necessary to maintain the animals will have to be bought and brought in. Very expensive way to raise animals.

There's even a name for the pasture: "horse-sick". The pasture won't even grow grass after the animals are removed without heavy rescue measures to relieve the soil compaction and nutrient imbalances.

Check with your local extension agent. Tell him your plans and get his advice on stocking rate. I'm afraid you'll find you're already overstocked.

I don't think it is feasible. I would think the 2 horses and 2 ponies is pushing it greatly even with constant hay - it will become a dry lot.
I have a fairly lush 3 acre pasture on my 25 acre piece of land - I need to rotate 2 horses at a time down there and then give the land a breather by taking horses of it and letting goats in to just eat brush for a week here and there - otherwise, it would be only dirt. I think if you had 8-10 acres of good pasture, you could manage with providing free choice good hay year round with the amount of animals you're talking about. . .
I have 25 acres - some of it is woods - have 6 horses, 1 pony, 2 mini donkeys, 15 goats and a cow on it. Some of the horses are on dry lots and get 24/7 hay - the goats get 24/7 alfalfa hay and eat what the horses, donkeys and cow will not, and even the cow really loves to forage in the woods - and we still need to supplement with hay and have 4 areas of rotation for the larger animals -

Except that you're in Morristown, I'd have thought you were my neighbor. They have two horses and two ponies. No grass, just dust, mud, and some sparse weeds. They spend a small fortune on it, as far as I can tell.

Good grief, forget I said anything.

My property is not a dry lot. There are many weeds/grasses that horses don't eat. We have to mow the field a few times a summer- first mowing was this past week. Yes, up near the run-in shed is dry in the summer and mud in the winter/spring- that's where the round bale feeder typically is as well as the trough.

I don't know how hay is where y'all are at, but around here, horse hay is the best hay. Cow hay is typically hay that has bleached in the sun or gotten wet at some point.
Cow hay is about 10 bucks a round, horse 20. Cow hay a buck a bale or so, horse hay 3.
Unless there is some sort of dairy quality hay- this is it. Not many folks dabble in alfalfa here- orchard grass, lespedeza & fescue are local.

And AGAIN- I am NOT expecting the property to support, sustain or otherwise FEED anything. It's more or less a big ol' area to exercise in, picking whatever is there. And evidently the feedlots i've seen with hundreds of head packed so tightly you have a hard time seeing much ground aren't REALLY feedlots. Two acres with five animals is. We've owned this place for eight years and we didn't live here for a three year period, there were NO animals on the ground. When we moved back in, we had to bushhog the field as the GRASS was hip high.

I wasn't asking if anyone thought my field would support anything, particularly since I said, in the first post, that I didn't expect it to. I was asking about what some of the posters picked up on- the chasing, blocking from feed, field shelter, etc.
I also wanted information regarding the feasibilty of using a meat breed for both meat and some milk or a milk animal for a lot of milk and meat. I hadn't thought of a cross-bred animal to suit our needs.

Thank you to the posters who answered the questions asked and who had valid information to offer, as opposed to those who didn't read the OP throughly and kept harping on something i've already stated (multiple times) is a non-issue.

Property here is not priced for just anyone, unless that anyone has deep pockets. Cleared pasture-land is 10 g an acre and up, wooded for 5-6 an acre with approximately 3-4 an acre to put into regular ol' seeded grass pasture land.

Here's a picture of our daughter astride one of our horses in our 'feedlot', taken in early-mid fall last year.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y106/anmlfrm/006.jpg

2 acres with 4 horses and a dairy cow - no matter how many bales of hay you put out will end up a dry lot - and you will have very heavy worm burdens - those are just things to be aware of. If land is that high, you'd likely not want to destroy it like that - it would take ages to get it back to the point of anything growing on it.

You stated you wanted to save a little money, but you would honestly be very much in the hole.

If your horse hay if alfalfa, then it would likely be fine for a dairy cow - in our area grass horse hay is $25 a roll, but alfalfa is $65 a 1200 lb roll.

Horses and a cow/calf on such small lots would likely have serious issues with one another. The horses would probably not allow the cow to eat - a cow in milk without grazing area - asking for serious problem.

You said you will eventually have four horses on it - so the photo above isn't showing a 2 acre lot, according to that, with 4 on it now.

Worms on such a small piece of land would be out of control - that is something I can't stress enough.

If you're determined to do it - get a Dexter - smaller, you can get buy on milking once a day if the calf stays on her, eats less, dual purpose and look to spend $1,200 for a trained milker from milking lines -

The two acres currently have five horses on it. The above pic is actually with six horses on the land.
Unfortunately, alfalfa is hard to find here- it's almost always trucked in and expensive as heck when you do find it. Last time I fed it here in TN (fed exclusively in NM- it was the cheap hay and grass was expensive!) it was six to nine bucks a bale, and that was three years ago or so.
I intend to have the cow/calf out on the field when the horses are up. Then the cow/calf in the barn when the horses are out. As we were rescuing horses when we built the barn, we did four regular sized stalls and one double (that is split with a gate when needed) for foaling mares. It measures 12x20- do you think that is ample space for a cow/calf to be for 10-12 hours a day?
I have been looking towards the Dexter, i've heard good things about them- both ease of handling for the owner and their dual purpose.
That's about what I expected for a milker- good to know my prices seem to be in line. I will be in a position to buy around Jan/Feb (tax return ;) ). Are there any issues with buying a cow that time of the year?

Thanks.

When I first got into dairy cows I still had horses. I too, put the horses in the barn at night and out for the day or visa versa depending on the weather. I put the cow/calf in the barn too in one of my 11 x 12 horse stalls. I just wanna warn ya, one cow makes as much poop/pee mess in a stall overnight as three horses would! LOL

After the first winter of mucking that nasty cow stall, I was desperate to find a way to keep her OUT of there as much as possible. Plus, she would lay in the mess and come milking time, I had manure to clean off before I milked. Not real appetizing. I ended up dumping lots of milk because I couldn't bring it in the house knowing what I'd just wiped off of her. Yuck. I have Jerseys. I'm pretty sure a Dexter would be easier on a stall. They would have to be, right? :)

I still say you should fence off an area for your cow separate from your horses. Or at least be prepared to in case it doesn't work out having them together.

I don't have horses anymore, but I sure do miss them. Your horse is very pretty. Is it a red roan medicine hat paint mare? She looks like a gentle horse being ridden in just a halter.

I posted what I did because of this statement. Let me be more direct - no money will be saved.

Enjoy your animals.

Our experience too, no more horses!

I would look for what is available in your area... Search your local CL for something trained to hand milk, halter broke and gentle...Around here that would likely be a jersey or holstein and I would expect to pay 1200.00 or more. Crossed to a beef breed bull you will get a nice calf to raise for the freezer. If you keep the calf on the cow you dont have to milk twice daily. We have a neighbor who keeps a calf on her jersey full time, pens the calf 1 or 2 nights a week, milks in the morning and has enough milk for the week. As for keeping the cow and horses together that depends alot on the horses... Some are fine and some should not be trusted. They will harass a cow and possibly hurt a calf. Any possibility of renting property close by so that you could seperate if needed?

Although your property is not a dry lot, what we are saying is that it will probably end up that way with so many animals on it. We were not trying to be critical, but were trying to give you our honest opinions. Sorry you were offended.

Horses, a cow and calf, pigs.....I honestly think you may be attempting to do way too much on way too little ground; people have been trying to tell you that and I guess you don't like their answers.

We have one old mare (the one who is enjoying her last summer :( ) who has NEVER had solid poop. Always squirty or cow patty. I imagine mucking her stall is much like cleaning up after a cow. She doesn't lay in it, so I definitely need to be prepared for that, huh?

You'd think a smaller cow would poop a smaller amount, so I may get lucky, lol!

Thanks :) That's Honey, a registered Ky. Mtn horse. Yup, she's bald faced, four high whites, pink in the summer and black raspberry in the winter and wonderfully gaited. She's my bombproof horse and a real trooper.

I think we still might save a little bit, with prices as high as they are here.

Chicken is the only thing that you can buy for under 3 bucks a pound on a regular basis. Cheap steaks are 5 bucks a lb and up.

I do have a friend who buys calves and raises one or two a year for her family. She finishes them in the barn on grain and then when they go to the butcher? She requests a few roasts and then the rest is hamburger. THAT seems like an expensive waste of good cuts of meat.

Believe it or not, there are seldom ANY cattle on CL. Or pigs. Tons of horses, lots of chickens, some goats and that's about it. I suspect i'll be looking to the members here when it's time to buy- hopefully there will be someone somewhat near me.

I had hoped to milk once a day and let the calf have one. And to have the cow/calf out when the horses are up.

I understand that, but I don't know how you expect it to be any different with five animals than it was with six. Honestly, the ONLY time the property looked like a dry lot was right before we moved. With the rescue horses we had 17 head on it. Light colored horses went out at night, dark at day. That's when we decided we needed a larger property and bought another place and rented this one out. Unfortunately, those days are gone.

How long have your animals been on the two acres? Over time, overcrowding takes a toll on the soil and vegetation. Of course you must make the fianl decison on what suits your situation best. We can only give advice based on our experiences. A Dexter would be a good choice for a small area. I have three Dexters and love my little milk cow, DD. Some Dexters milk much better than others so it might pay to check into the background of a Dexter to see if she was from a milking line.

With mixed species, I would avoid any breeds of beef with horns, unless they are disbudded. I like red polls. I raise a few. They have a tendency to put on fat easily and may not be terribly well suited to an all grain diet, though if you are planning on milking I guess that would not matter, as long as you took your bull calf to town at 12 to 14 months. THey might get to fatty otherwise. You will really need to plan for parasites with so many animals on such few acres. You should also plan on drag harrowing 1 time per week. COws wont eat grass near manure. It wont take long for most of that 2 acres to have plenty of manure, so your cows would probably eat no grass at all. Dragging and some rain should help. You should consider chickens or guinnies for fly control. You might check around for waste feed blenders. There is an outfit near me (colley farms) that blends cereal like fruit loops and such form broken bags and bin bottoms, with nuts barley and grain bottoms and other feeds and fillers. THey sell it for $12 per hundred. I use it for chicken feed, to get them in the coop at night. With corn at $22 per hundred here, every little bit helps.
Good luck with your endevor. You have received some good advice form members. Advicxe is free and you are welcome to not take it. THese folks may not be completely intuned with your needs and situation, but in my experience most here share to protect others from their past mistakes. You dont strike me as a nube so I am sure you will do ok, but you do have some unconventional hurdles with high stock rate on small acerage. Just watch animal health closely. Again good luck, you are part of the HT family, we are pullin for ya.

Well, if you are not in a huge hurry maybe something will turn up...I have dairy goats and milk that way. Lock the kids up at night, milk in the morning, turn the kids out with mom for the day. Works well and you always have a "back up" milker..

Rose, you must have the best land in the country. Two acres & four horses? That is a corral with a hay feeder in it.

Not to question your ability to do it; some dairy farmers dry-lot their cows and haul in all their feed. Nevertheless, putting a cow and a calf in a two-acre pasture with four horses is asking for trouble. I've seen horses with an eight foot chain belted to their foreleg to keep them from chasing cattle. Do you want to do something like that?

Keeping a cow in a stall for long periods is just asking for a lot of work; you have to muck out the stall on a regular basis. You are looking at a seven-day week, year-round.