Willow girl , I do the best I can do to provide a quality product, and I have never as of yet had anyone get sick from raw milk. And if you think about it everything you do in life is a big risk, getting up in the morning and walking outside can be risky on it`s own. You can fall off a ladder, get in an auto accident, cow kick you, fall down the stairs. You are more likely to get cancer than get sick from raw milk. I try not to think about it to much. I was dealt this hand and I have to make the best of it, my milk company dropped us for being to small a dairy, so other than quit all together, we sell raw milk. We do carry a large liability insurance policy on the farm, and the insurance man said it will probly work once. Then we will more than likely stop selling milk and quit with the dairy business. I have no idea what to do with myself, I don`t want to get a job in town again, been there, done that, way to long. And agriculture around here is geared for big Ag. so raising anything on small scale is out of the question. And I`m to old to get big in anything, we have kicked around the idea of just plain , flat out retire. But I`m to young to go to the coffee shop everyday and complain about everything. Anyone have other ideas for me chime right in. > Thanks Marc

I'd be scared to death of getting sued and losing the farm! But your mileage may vary. :shrug:

I haven't been on here in awhile. I just had to comment that I find it very disturbing that the FDA has this level of power!:hrm: That is a federal agency coming in to "save the day". If the state or local authorities have a problem with it, then that is fine and that is something they have authority over. Any federal agency should NEVER have this level of authority unless the local government requests it. These are not elected agents. This is an agency which, in my opinion, has crossed the line. I think their "interstate" commerce loophole needs to be closed permanently.

What I find more disturbing is that some members of this board seem to think that type of action is a good thing. I don't want to get into a huge debate on liberty on here, but I would like to do a quick summary in defense of it. The problem I have with a large oversized government, is that if it is big enough to give you everything you want, it is big enough to take everything you have. This giant of a government can and will regulate everything. Everything. Of course they need a lot of tax dollars to do research and write the regulations and then enforce them. So you end up paying a whole lot of money in taxes for the federal government to tell you how to live, what to wear, what to eat, how to act or anything else. That is just wrong in my opinion. It is the reason this country is broke. We have regulated businesses to the point they can't survive. Who creates meaningful jobs in the country? Not the government. The federal government has no business in any of these things. If your local government wants to create laws that regulate milk, that is up to them and you can take that fight to the local level and have a better chance (or not) of being heard. But this is not something the federal government should ever be involved in. You can't convince me that there is not a single person in the whole USA that could not derive some benefit from raw milk, even if it was taking a bath in it or using it to water the plants. If just that one person could use raw milk, we are imposing on his/her freedoms by making it illegal in the whole USA. There is a local doctor at a very large and well known hospital who recommends raw milk to his patients who are suffering from autism and other brain development issues. Jersey milk in particular, but it has to be raw. Lets stop treading on everyones rights to supposedly save the thousands who would die from drinking it. If you think it is bad for you, don't drink it. Just because it is legal doesn't mean you have to drink it. You sure won't get sick from someone who has drank it. It isn't like anyone is going to sneek it in your lunch box or force you to drink it. Good or bad shouldn't be the question when it comes to freedom to choose.

Anyway, I will leave it alone at that. I just find it very surprising that members of this board in particular are so in favor of regulations to restrict the sale of raw milk on a federal level. It just blows my mind! Ron Paul 2012

Just ask your Vet to explain campylobactor to you. If you trust your University Extension, ask them. There was a book about milk and meat, written in the early 1900s. Once people saw what unregulated food was, the citizens pushed for government regulation. Seems far fetched to the last few generations that have grown up with safe milk and meat.

How about pasteurize your raw milk yourself. Double boiler at 145 degrees for 30 minutes than cool down in ice water bath

This is what's called an appeal to fear. Fear of the consequences is not the root of this discussion, at least not to me. The question is, how much control over our lives do we turn over to the government?

I won't belabor the issue as people tend to have their minds made up before looking at the facts.

Well Haypoint ole buddy you know my stand on this and I have known yours for some time. We will have to agree to disagree, I would rather drink MY raw milk anyday, than eat a cheesburger at a fast food place. > Thanks Marc

So what? there is a doctor at a large and very well know hospital that recommends you only drink 2% milk.....
You can go to 30 different large and well known hospitals and get 30 different opinions.

Your kind of thinking is ruining this country.

As Benjamin Franklin wisely stated, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." And the truth is, you will get neither liberty nor safety.

Don't give up your freedoms so easily my friend. You can still pasturize your milk even if raw milk were legal.

no sammyd, the point is that some educated people think there are some health benefits to drinking raw milk and they outweigh the risks. A doctor seems to be well educated and would seem to understand the health risks of recommending drinking raw milk. I would imagine he knows all the possible diseases that a person could get from drinking raw milk. I would also imagine he understands the benefits and how raw milk is different from 2% or pasturized milk. So I find it interesting that he would recommend raw milk to a patient. That takes some conviction. Most doctors, even if they did hold the belief that raw milk was good for you, would not say anything.

Lets just say that there is a single person who could be helped by drinking raw milk. That is one person who could benefit from it. Wouldn't it be wrong to make it illegal. That person has the right to good health. You are taking that persons right away by restricting the use of raw milk. It is not like I am telling you that you and everyone has to drink raw milk. We aren't talking about a law that forces everyone to drink raw milk. I am just saying you can let this other person have it without causing any public health problem.

Once again it is an education problem, I take raw milk for health reasons. And I don`t want that right taken away, I also agree with bigbluegrass that we are not forcing anyone to drink raw milk. We just think we have the right to eat or drink what we want. I have a retired Vetrinarian that buys milk from me, he stated he had not been to a medical doctor in 40 years. He says they will kill ya, he also said that good pure raw milk that had e-coli put into it, the milk will actually kill the bacteria. He is a very strong proponent of drinking raw milk, I find it very interesting that so many well educated people think that drinking raw milk is a good thing. I also believe in using herbal remedies for all kinds of illnesses, and alot of people think this is hookie. But I do have the right to do what I want. I love it when you see medicines advertised on TV for differant things and then they read off the side effects of using those drugs. Most of the side effects are far worse than the illness that your taking them for. synthetic and chemical compounds that they use for making medicines are not the same anymore, and the pharmacutical companies are running the show. All for now, more to come I`m sure. > Thanks Marc

not only that but when you buy a product like eggs or viggies from Big Ag the gov gets its cut. But when a friend, neighbor or family member buys the same from me, well they don't get a penny. With only 10 hens, how many cartons of eggs would I have to sell before I have to pay taxes on my earnings. A LOT. More then I could ever get from my hens at $2.00-$3.00 a carton. But taxable earnings is the only real way for them to get any money from me, cause I only sell from my farm, no drop off points and I'm not big enough for the farmers market, so no need for a special license that would put any money in their pockets. So shutting down a few of the bigger "small guys" is the only way for them to justify collecting a pay check each week.

I have to agree with you on this Marc. Life has on major side effect, death. Its gonna happen one way or another. Why spend all of yours wondering how its gonna end? It just reminds me of a conversation I used to have with my mom all the time when I used to rock climb or go bungee jumping or something she thought equally life threatening; "Who's to say Im gonna die jumping off a bridge with only a rubberband tied to my leg, I could get in a car accident on the way just as easily." Lol.

Let go, let God.

Well, I was trying to stay out of this thread, but, where's the fun in that. Just to chime in about the well educated people that buy raw milk from me. I have a dr. that not only buys from me, but also spreads the word to countless people that come to see him. I can't tell you the # of families that buy our milk b/c they are allergic to store bought milk. One family has children who have had stomach issues all their lives. They started drinking raw milk and their guts are being restored. Also, I have 2 cancer patients that get milk from me........both are now in remission and neither of them had any kind of traditional treatments ( raw foods heal!) Hmm, then theirs the lady that had candida problems. I gave her some colostrum and she's a new person. It's a super food you know! All that being said, I definatlely wouldn't just buy raw milk from anybody. In my state you have to go to the farm and get it. There's a reason for that. You, as an intellegent human being should know where your food is coming from, how the animals are kept, what kind of facility and cleaning is being done. I went to a conventional farm down the road from me once when I ran out of milk, it wasn't pretty. The milk house was filthy and smelled bad. The farmer took my jars, which I had in the back of my van where some hay was the day before, so the jars were sterile on the inside, but probably not on the outside. He opened up his bulk tank and dipped my jars into it to fill them. My eyes about fell out of my head. When I got home, I smelled the milk and dumped it. This is a person who should not be selling raw milk and could very possibly make someone very ill. We take good care to sell a safe product. We have yet to have any complaints.

Anyways, this post was about the gov't getting into our business. As someone else said, everything is a risk. People smoke cigarettes which are known to cause cancer among other things. Does the gov't save people from themselves and arrest them for harming themselves? NO That doesn't sound like the gov't protecting the people to me. If the gov't wants to help, they should be educating the people.

I am sure that these articles by Doreen Hannes, a full time volunteer advocate for independent agriculture since 2005 and a well-respected leader in the national movement to halt the National Animal Identification System, now known as ADT (Animal Disease Traceability), will be considered opinion, but just in case you would like to read how she feels about the USDA and food safety, I have included these links:

http://www.truth-farmer.blogspot.com/

http://www.newswithviews.com/Hannes/doreen101.htm



I am also wondering how much government subsidies and the milk pricing system have to do with USDA involvement in policing the sale of raw milk to private customers.
http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications...1/aib761fm.pdf

:goodjob::hysterical:

Guillain-Barré syndrome is an auto-immune disease. It could be triggered by being sneezed on.

:clap:

All it comes down to is no man's judgment should be forced upon me in a matter such as food.

It usually is preceded by a bacterial or viral infection.

Google "Guillain-Barre+raw milk" and you will find a number of reports. Campylobacter seems to be the culprit.

I can't find any published, peer reviewed articles, but for what it's worth, I was in an undergrad biology class last year, and two students in my class designed an experiment around raw milk. They tested bacteria levels and bacteria diversity in raw milk from our school farm and pastuerized milk from the grocery store over the course of several weeks (the same samples, left in the fridge for weeks and tested every couple of days). I was not involved in the experiment so unfortunately I don't know all of the details, but they did find that at the end of the experiment, the raw milk had more diversity of beneficial bacteria and no detectable "bad" bacteria (that would make someone sick) while the pastuerized milk had very little diversity and more harmful bacteria.

In Vermont, it is legal to sell raw milk as long as it's sold ON FARM (cannot be sold off of the property where it's produced) and is labelled with a rediculous disclaimer stating that raw milk is known to kill babies and the elderly, spread disease and cause abortion. Still, at least we can sell raw milk here.

I think that making it legal to sell raw milk ON FARM ONLY is a good compromise on this issue. I would not drink raw milk from most dairy farms around here, but there are a few that I know and trust, and I personally believe whole heartedly in the health benefits of raw milk. I think that being able to sell raw milk at stores or markets would add a degree of separation that I'm not sure would be safe. Making customers go to the farm to buy raw milk, and see it for themselves is a good way to encourage farmers to keep up with regulations and sanitation standards, and it's a good way for the customers to see what they're getting. Yes, there are some animals that appear healthy when they aren't, and you can't see everything that happens during milking and processing when you go to buy milk. But as others have stated, I personally feel much safer drinking raw milk from a farm that looks clean to me and has healthy looking animals, than I do eating a hamburger at McDonalds. That is just gross. :yuck:

:nanner: Amen brother, tell it like it is :cow:

I haven't read the entire thread, but I have to ask, what are people going to do when the government reaches bankruptcy and there are no regulators and inspectors to protect us?

We might want to get ready.

I would love to be able to get hold of some raw milk for dh. But in Ohio it's illegal to sell it. I see "raw milk wanted" advertisements on craigslist all the time and wonder how many are placed by the feds. You really don't want to know what all contaminants are in powdered milk. I once knew a guy who used to work in a powdered milk factory. Yes it's pasturized before it's dehydrated but you can't keep rats out of storehouses. The FDA does not require rehydrated milk to be labeled as such. And rehydrated milk is not as healthy for you as real milk or raw milk. Google "reconstituted milk detection" and you'll see that reconstituted milk is not as nutritious as real milk. And yes, those same detection tests (done in China) did find a marked difference in raw and pasturized milk.

If a person wants to buy raw milk for themselves they should be allowed. If this means they have to inspect the dairy then so be it. The dairy farm that was across the road from us when I was a kid was NASTY nasty. Grandpa said he didn't see how it passed inspection. I don't care how much you cook it, poop is still poop.

ETA: link to FDA label regulations
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/script...h.cfm?fr=101.4

They may want to start eating their own HOME grown food, wow there is a novel idea. > Marc

It looks like to me that it is usually hirelings for the government that claim that raw milk is dangerous. Nobody forces raw milk down the throats of the unsuspecting, innocent public. Most Americans either favor the availability of raw dairy, or don't oppose it. More and more people are becoming aware of government enchroachment on what we have always considered our rights. It is my opinion that government agents order or buy raw milk with the aim of "nailing" the culprit who is selling it, as if this were a drug sting. I believe that this is just another way of bringing an errant public in line with what the government has decided is good for us. A lot of times it is very subtle, it doesn't seem to affect us, so we hardly notice what is happening. We give up a little freedom here and a little freedom there and before you know it, we don't have any freedom.

You radical! Be careful or they'll accuse you of orthorexia.

Couldn't have said it better myself!! :bow:

Nope, I work on a dairy farm. My job is dependent on people buying the product we produce and that in turn is affected by their perception of its safety and wholesomeness.

I worry that when folks hear that milk made some people sick, they won't make the distinction between raw and pasteurized, and will instead reach for a non-dairy alternative ... soy, rice, almond, etc.

It's bad for business. :(

Thank you for the calm and respectful response. Just goes to prove that people can disagree and still be civil about it. I can understand your concern, but pasteurization is not always a guarantee that milk is safe.

"Is pasteurizing milk a guarantee of safety?

No, processed foods can still become contaminated. In the early 1900’s, pasteurization was introduced to prevent people from getting food poisoning from milk. Pasteurization works by rapidly heating the milk to a certain temperature for a specific period of time to kill disease-causing germs. In contrast, homogenization is the process of passing milk under high pressure through a tiny orifice, which decreases the diameter and increases the number and surface area of the fat globules. This reduces the tendency for creaming of fat globules.

Outbreaks from pasteurized milk products (see Table 2) are very uncommon considering the large number of people who drink them. Pasteurized milk can carry all of the same germs as raw dairy products if they are allowed to get into the milk after pasteurization. In 2007, three men in Massachusetts died after drinking pasteurized milk that was contaminated with Listeria in the bottling area of the facility in which it was produced. Norovirus is the most commonly reported cause of illness from pasteurized milk products. Norovirus is only found in humans, and gets into the milk after the pasteurization process from human hands soiled with feces. It can be easily prevented by good handwashing practices and excluding ill persons from handling milk or other foods."
http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/#RawMilkFacts4

That concern is understandable, but stop and consider how short the memory/attention span of the public is. All the e-coli burger that has been reported in the news the last 10 years, did it seem to hurt McDonald's, Wendy's or Burger King's business?? There are more of them than ever.

Sorry about the thread drift, but I don't think the soy/almond whatever products should ever have been allowed to be labeled "milk". It is NOT milk.

The Mad Cow disease scare hasn't stopped beef eating Americans either, just gave the USDA an excuse for pushing NAIS.:o

I think we can all agree on that!!!

@Marc from SpringValley...Perhaps a way to CYOA ,would be to have your customers sign a disclaimer to the effect of ...."I am aware of the risks of raw milk ,but I choose to take those risks." Perhaps talk to your lawyer and see if it would be a binding agreement in your state.

Kinda like the people who've gotten sick from pasteurized milk, eh?

And of course, there are very few people who won't make that distinction. You can be sure, in such a case, that the media will blame it on the milk being raw.

Yet they can still sell raw canteloupe. But fruit doesn't have that stigma or preconceived idea that it is inherently dangrous. So the rare times when it makes someone sick it's seen as a fluke.

Some dairy farmers in Arkansas are getting around this problem by selling raw milk for pet food, I guess if you want to drink it yourself, thats not their problem. It just burns my a** that I can buy cigarettes, but raw milk is illegle, something is just wrong with that!!!

I don't know if that would stand up in court copperhead. I think they say you have to have a license for producing pet food. :rolleyes:

Just Google bacteria curing cancer and you can probably come to your own conclusion as to WHY they don’t want us ingesting them! JM2C
ANY cow poo in the raw milk would be the PERFECT place to find these dandy little gems. My guess is, they work the same as the GMO version, if you take them is small amounts your whole life, then I THINK you’ll be fine………
Chlorinated people, WELL, they may need to see a doctor to oversee their treatment. As you all know, cancer treatment CAN kill you once the cancerous cells reache the full blown cancer stage. BUT THEN, that’s considered a HEALING process……..RIGHT!

I COULD be WRONG, don’t know……….JUST MY 2 CENTS!!!

I put those good articles on my facebook page. Hope to gross out all my friends.

I was grossed out when I found out commercial beef are fed chicken poop and dead dogs and cats.

I cannot drink commercial milk, but I can drink raw milk. I was better with my cow that ended up dying on me, Yo's milk is different and so I do another no no and throw a raw egg or two in it when drinking it or having a bowl of cereal. I only get gassy from Yo's milk not doubled over in pain like from commercial milk. The eggs help on that gassy stuff.

Raw milk contains lysine which my husband needs because he had Shingles. I have had psoriasis on my face and have had to put ointment on it for years, since I started with the milk it went away. My husband even says my breath is better since I have been drinking the milk.

So they will pry my Yo out of my cold dead hands.

Yes, Karen, I ALWAYS post stuff like this on my FB page as well. Worms that cure intestinal disease, BACTERIA in the dirt that helps cure depression……on and on and on!

My DH had Acid Reflux for years and was on prescription drugs until after I went through my pre-med degree. It gave me the confidence to experiment a little on him, LOL. He is now ‘purple pill’ free and says he feels it’s the milk that keeps his AR under control.

I think what most people don’t understand is, that we no longer live in the same world we once did. Grandma and Grandpa didn’t use hand sanitizers, have tightly sealed houses, filters on their furnace when they grew up, or fancy milking machines to eliminate bacteria from their bodies. Here is a good article on that; I try to use the .com articles only because they are easier for most people to read. I assure the scientific articles are out there, just go to google scholar to find them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis

The time when it use to be OK to bring in a fresh bucket of raw milk, laden with dry poo from the underbelly of the cow are gone for MOST people, our bodies (well some of us) can no longer tolerate the bacteria without our body over reacting. But then again, it could just be a healing process we are conditioned to think is a sickness so we try to stop it.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0905174501.htm

Our family can drink our well water that did NOT pass health inspection due to high E. coli count, but the kids from the city can NOT. THEY have to drink from our special faucet that has the chlorinated water in it. We had one girl come who we forgot to tell that too. Eeek, she got a little loose stool the next day and didn’t feel real good but she did get over it and was fine in a few days.

NOW MY family has no problem drinking the dry poo laden milk after it has be run through the milk filter. In fact, after doing some research, I think WE ALL need a little E. coli in our diet! LOL

Kefir, IMO is an EXCELLENT way to make sure your system is full of GOOD beneficial bacteria, so when you do get exposed to a TRUE germ it will NOT be able to proliferate and cause problems. However, that’s a whole nother story in itself!

MY opinion is, that we NOT sell our raw milk; for fear that BIG BROTHER knows it can harm/heal the people that have not been exposed to the natural environment. I don’t think people who are trying to kill bacteria really understand what TRUE health is. People don’t understand that chlorinated water and raw milk do NOT mix, IMO. If your drinking chlorinated water then reaching for raw milk, someone SHOULD be monitoring what you are doing. AGAIN JMO! BUT, if they don’t want us selling the raw milk and we keep doing it and breaking laws, they just might come take ALL the family farm cows away and put them on USDA and FDA compliant farms and NONE of us will have access to this GOOD QUALITY LIVE WHOLSOME FOODS.

Guess you have to pay for the good news! LOL
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/62021/title/How_salmonella_helps_kill_cancer_cells:grumble: