serious cattle health issue (very long)

linn · #**161** 02/21/11, 10:04 AM

There is a big difference in Hereford and Longhorn cattle. The Longhorn cattle I have seen appear to be a boney breed, as Herefords are bred to be beefy in appearance.

agmantoo · #**162** 02/21/11, 11:08 AM

Lazy J

Allowing for breed and possible grain access I do not see a lot of difference between the animals in your pic and those of lonelyfarmgirl. There is a variation in both groups. Are these whiteface cattle being maintained on hay only? Are they in an area where the feed source was stressed? I see one animal that is at best a BCS of low 5 and two that are a true five and another that is IMO BCS of 6. In larger numbers of cattle of mixed breeds and ages it is not uncommon to pick out a few poor performers. There are lots of cattle that go through sale barns this time of year that are a significantly in worse condition than any cattle pictured in this particular discussion. Given some time with the use of the protein tubs and with good mineral supplements I think the problem will correct at lonelyfarmgirl's place.

Onthebit · #**163** 02/21/11, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agmantoo

Lazy J

Allowing for breed and possible grain access I do not see a lot of difference between the animals in your pic and those of lonelyfarmgirl. There is a variation in both groups. Are these whiteface cattle being maintained on hay only? Are they in an area where the feed source was stressed? I see one animal that is at best a BCS of low 5 and two that are a true five and another that is IMO BCS of 6. In larger numbers of cattle of mixed breeds and ages it is not uncommon to pick out a few poor performers. There are lots of cattle that go through sale barns this time of year that are a significantly in worse condition than any cattle pictured in this particular discussion. Given some time with the use of the protein tubs and with good mineral supplements I think the problem will correct at lonelyfarmgirl's place.

I see them at the sales barn too and it disgusts me. If you can't feed your animals properly through the winter then get rid of them before they deteriorate so badly!!

ErinP · #**164** 02/21/11, 12:10 PM

A lot of the "starved" cattle in sale barns are old, gummer cows. It's not that their owners aren't taking care of them properly.

randiliana · #**165** 02/21/11, 12:27 PM

I hope everyone realizes that protein isn't what puts on fat. Protein is needed for muscle growth for sure (among other things) but it is ENERGY that is needed for weight gain. Both are needed of course, but if you are feeding protein and expecting to see a sudden turn around as far as weight gain goes, you will be waiting a while. For real weight gain, cattle need something high in energy in their diet, and enough of it. This is why grass fed cattle take longer to finish than grain fed cattle. Energy is more likely to be lacking in hay and grass, rather than protein. There may be enough energy in hay to maintain an animal but not enough to encourage any major weight gain.

When looking at a feed test result TDN = energy and CP = protein.

Weight gain/health/maintenance is subject to the least available nutrient. If there is lots of protein but not enough energy, then you won't see much weight gain. If you are severely lacking in some minerals, that will restrict growth as well. Energy is the most variable need. As long as your protein is acceptable and your minerals are too, energy can be added to encourage growth, or reduced down to a maintenance level.

linn · #**166** 02/21/11, 12:41 PM

Most of the thin old cows that you see at the sale barn either have their teeth worn down or don't have many teeth. That is why they are being sold. In order to keep them in condition they would have to be feed gruel or alfafla meal and then they wouldn't look good. The only other option besides selling them is to shoot them.

lonelyfarmgirl · #**167** 02/21/11, 02:14 PM

So if energy is what is required for weight gain, then how does a grass fed animal keep up if hay is lacking in that department?
What is full of the required energy that is not corn or soy?

Allen W · #**168** 02/21/11, 02:56 PM

lonelyfarmgirl

here is a couple of fact sheets on supplementing beef cows http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docush...SI-3010web.pdf, http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docush.../ANSI-3017.pdf. This one is nutrient requirements of beef cattle http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docush...1/E-974web.pdf. This is the Oklahoma State beef extension web site http://www.beefextension.com/ I know they are not strictly about grass fed beef, but hopefully you can gain some information.

Madsaw · #**169** 02/21/11, 03:14 PM

You know, I am begining to think many folks here have never seenstraved cattle. Over the years there was 2 neighbors to me that was repeatedly turned in for starving cattle. You can count every bone on them and they had the pot hay gut.
The pics of the herfords should be of concern too. the one on the far right is way over weight. Would cause concern for fatty liver.
Bob

randiliana · #**170** 02/21/11, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lonelyfarmgirl

So if energy is what is required for weight gain, then how does a grass fed animal keep up if hay is lacking in that department?
What is full of the required energy that is not corn or soy?

Alfalfa tends to be the highest energy feed if you want to stay away from any grain products. BUT, and this is BIG, it all depends on how the hay was put up, what stage was it in, did it lay in the field too long and bleach, did it get rained on, is it first or second cut, what was the growing season like.... Top quality grass hay can be much, much better than poor quality alfalfa hay.

Feeding is a balancing act, you need to feed good enough quality feed for the animals to be able to perform or maintain themselves, but feeding better than you need to feed just costs $$ that aren't necessary to gain the results you want. Keep in mind that as far a CP goes, even a high milking cow only needs 12% protein at the peak of her production. A dry cow in late pregnancy is going to require about 8% protein. So, unless you are feeding really poor quality feed protein usually isn't a big issue. Whereas a high milking cow at peak production requires around 59-62% TDN and around 45-50% when dry.

Here's a table that shows the nutrient requirements for cattle at various stages in their life
http://www.uaex.edu/Other_Areas/publ.../PDF/MP391.pdf

Here's a couple feed composition tables. For energy you want to pay attention to DE and TDN values. Protein is CP. Higher numbers indicate higher quality feeds. Remember, these values are an average value of the feeds tested. Quality depends on a lot of things, as I mentioned above.

http://beefmagazine.com/nutrition/2010FeedTable.pdf

Here's a really good site that explains a lot about feeding cattle and what they require as far as nutrients, energy and protein.
http://www1.foragebeef.ca/$foragebeef/frgebeef.nsf/all/ccf21

Here is some info on the energy needs of cattle.
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/faq7955

ErinP · #**171** 02/21/11, 04:41 PM

Quote:

So, unless you are feeding really poor quality feed protein usually isn't a big issue.

Have you read the entire thread...?

randiliana · #**172** 02/21/11, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErinP

Have you read the entire thread...?

Excuse me, I was just talking in general here, trying to help her understand what is in the feed. If you've read through the thread, you will have noticed I've been in her from about the beginning !

randiliana · #**173** 02/21/11, 04:46 PM

Here's a workbook that might help you understand this a bit better. It has all the requirement and feed value tables in it too.

http://www.msue.msu.edu/objects/cont...kspace_id.-30/

ErinP · #**174** 02/21/11, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randiliana

Excuse me, I was just talking in general here, trying to help her understand what is in the feed. If you've read through the thread, you will have noticed I've been in her from about the beginning !

I rarely pay attention to names...

My apologies for missing the shift from specific to general.

randiliana · #**175** 02/21/11, 05:25 PM

No problem....

lonelyfarmgirl · #**176** 02/21/11, 05:34 PM

I will check out these links you posted later on when I get time to sit down. Thanks for taking the time to post them. No word on the hay testing results yet.

Lazy J · #**177** 02/21/11, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lonelyfarmgirl

I will check out these links you posted later on when I get time to sit down. Thanks for taking the time to post them. No word on the hay testing results yet.

I will repeat my suggestion to get in contact with a quality Nutritiniost, Feed Salesman, Professor, or Extension Agent to help you with your herd. Following the advice of "Internet Experts" in a willy nilly fashion won't help you.

agmantoo · #**178** 02/21/11, 07:07 PM

lonelyfarmgirl
As the chores were done today did you by chance observe the cow patties from the current feed? Mainly I am interested if the height of the patties has diminished. Thanks

lonelyfarmgirl · #**179** 02/22/11, 03:51 PM

Well, the hay numbers are in, and it's ugly. The nice, leafy, green 2nd cutting alfalfa hay had protein around 11% and TDN of around 30ish%. I don't have the exact numbers. He read them to me over the phone. He is going to mail the paper report.
Surprisingly, the brown, moldy, 1st cutting yuck hay you can see in the background of some of the photos was better all the way around.
Protein at 15 1/2ish% and TDN in the 40's%. This was flood hay off our own field. The green stuff was what we bought in.

I know I had said before we bought from several different people. Most of that is gone, so we only tested the 2 we have the most of left.

After talking with the nutritionist about the various options, both corn, soy and other, we located some ryelage about an hour from here. The guy is going to deliver 14 bales tomorrow. It is 15% protein and TDN of 63%. The nutritionist said ryelage needed to be a minimum of TDN 50% and protein 14%.
He said feed it every other time in sequence with what we already have and also leave the molasses and protein lick tubs out there and that should be plenty enough to bring the herd back around.

Adding, I will look at cow pies this afternoon, maybe take a photo if I can find a good one, but yesterday we had a blizzard, and all poo was buried as it hit the ground. Nobody died this round.

The next hurdle is to see if they will eat it.

6e · #**180** 02/22/11, 05:22 PM

Glad you got results and that you're able to do something with it. Good luck with your next course!!