I have a question....please don't take this the wrong way. I have read the whole thread...and you said you were having hay issues.

The hay in the background of the picture on your blog..Feb 5th...is that not yours? Neighbors hay? If it is yours...in weather like that ours would have access to hay all the time. (we live in south east texas and don't have winters that brutal, and we keep hay out pretty much all the time through the winter months.) That along with protein tubs or liquid feed and loose mineral....

Gosh in weather like that they need to be in really good shape goin into winter...as well as having high quality feed in front of them at all times, just to survive. They are burnin energy they don't have to burn in weather like that.

I sure hope you get this resolved quickly so that you don't have any further losses.

I am very sorry for your losses. They do look like they are going to require a lot to get back into condition, I would guess it will be more then just a few protein blocks that will be needed, especially considering your weather, doing more research and talking with more people about getting proper nutrition and minerals would be where I would put all my energy (and money). Unless I read something wrong, all three vets said the thing, they were in poor condition and their nutritional needs were not being met. There is a lot of help both at the Universities and at the Extension offices.

Yes, the hay in the background is ours. That particular hay is set up for use a couple weeks from now when the ground thaw begins. Here, the frost goes so deep, that when the ground begins to thaw, we can't get the loader into the feed lot, so we're bale grazing this year to try and solve that problem. When the ground is hard, moving bales with the loader is no problem.
The have access to hay all the time. We never let them run out. They have feeders that are out of the photo.

So tell me this. Why do you think the cows in that photo are very very poor?
Not being jerkish, I just want to know if I am missing something.
In comparing them to a BCS example chart, I would call the 2 steers in the front 4's. I realize thats not ideal, but they always look a bit ragged in the winter, even when the feed is very good. The highlander on the right I would call a 5. There is a cow in the rear of the photo, behind the steers that looks poor, maybe a 2 or 3, but she is a holstein cross. Even in high summer she looks bony. Its the same with the longhorns. Even in high summer they have protruding hip bones and are very thin, like a dairy cow.

We are feeding them oats and barley, a couple pounds per head per day, plus the lick tubs, and several types of mineral blocks free choice, and they all got apples today, as we came into a whole pallet box of them.

I would like to see better photos of your cattle, than the couple on your blog.

Personally, from the pictures I would call those steers 3-3.5. And if your steers are that rough, I really wonder about the cow herd. The steers after all do not require that much for maintenance. The cows on the other hand are either raising a calf or are pregnant!


If you could post several photos of your herd, preferably, some single animal side shots would be best.

Our herd is wintered pretty much as yours. Cows get alfalfa hay and usually some sort of green feed, triticale this year. They get some grain from that. We do pail grain to any calves we get. More to the ones we are finishing, less to the replacement heifers. They all get some sort of mineral, the cows are on Promolas.

I will see if I can take some tomorrow. Its very windy today and the photos would be deceiving due to blowing hair!

2 of the 3 protein tubs we put out are nearly gone. We got a different one, a heifer tub. It has more molasses in it, and they don't like it.

lonelyfarmgirl

Look at the two calves in the front of the picture. Both calves are sunk in behind the shoulders, the black baldy you can looke down his back and see his spine, especially toward his back end where the ice has the hair laid down. I have to agree with randiliana that they appear to be 3.0 to 3.5 BCS.

Lfg..

There are a bunch of Hooks and Pins and Vertebrae showing in those cattle! It looks like winter has been hard on them. I hope they recover for you.

Not good advice. The livestock juding teams workout on various farms and ranches to get experience for competitions. They don't go as a favor to evaluate your herd.

Now getting a quality nutritionist or cattlemen to visit your farm for their opinion would be good for the OP.

Jim

Just my 2 cents worth, since you've been in this business all these years, the only difference I can see is the flooding. could it have dropped or somehow caused a bacteria or something else awfull in the soil? It's horrible that you've lost so many animals, and I'm so sorry for that. I sure hope you find the problem and don't have to get out of the business. I understand that you are doing all you can, and I applaude you for everything you've done to try and find the cause. That people would try to blame you is narrow minded and blame throwing, if anyone reads your post they can see that you trying everything possible. I can't imagine losing that many animals, it would be devistating. I hope you find the cause and soon.
P.J.

Well, probably not good advice then.

This was our original suspicion. Who knows what those flood waters brought in? Especially since so many farmers and so many governments seem to think round-up and atrazine and who knows what else is perfectly healthy for us and the soil. :grump:
And since the hay was so weird, and apparently not just ours, who knows what the plants soaked up and grew into their cells?

And unfortunately, a break in the weather doesn't look probable. We have had weather in the high 30's all week, which feels like a heat wave, but the wind is nasty tonight, and its supposed to start snowing sunday. I have no idea what to projected amount is. Sigh...

I spent some time looking at your blog and some of your previous threads here to get an idea of what your farm is like before wading in with an opinion. I am going to have to say I am seeing some cause for concern. In the past 4 months you have had a lot of animals die.

pigs:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sho...d.php?t=377598

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sho...d.php?t=370037

you lost quite a few in the blizzard:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sho...d.php?t=376323

you have some fertility issues with your rabbits:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sho...d.php?t=378858

Add that to all of the cows that recently died and I think maybe it is time to take a step back and really look over your operation. Because you have a real problem there. It sounds like you are overwhelmed with work and you have had trouble keeping farm hands and I am sure that is adding to the pressure. Sometimes it is a good idea to cut back on animals for awhile and get everything back to a manageable scale and then rebuild your stock slowly.

It is unfortunate that we have had a bad year, but those posts you reference have nothing to do with each other. The still born pigs were a direct cause of the sickness the feeders brought in. The post about the blizzard was the first snow of the year, and weather you have 2 enclosures, or 20 enclosures, anything living outside of an enclosed barn is at risk of getting buried in snow country.

When you have so many living things, whether cattle, school children or plants, something is always sick, or happening, or breaking, or getting lost, thats life. And if you read further, you will know that the reason we had trouble with the farm hands was because the first molested my daughter and the second lied about his experiences. Those are the only 2 we had ever had. How many cashiers does McDonalds go through before they find a decent one?

Just because your beans fail, and you broke a case of canning jars and your tomatoes got too ripe on the vine, does that mean you should buy more food instead of grow it?

There is a lot going on here, but that is what a busy life is all about.

Forgot to add, the reason I was having a rabbit fertility issue was because of the cold. They are in their own building, take an hour a day to care for and have nothing to do with the cattle or their feed issue.

I tend to disagree that these things just happen. And again please do not take this as a personal knock because it is not meant as one. We have been farming for 10 years now with a variety of different animals. At our largest we leased land and had a mixed herd of Dexters and Highlands along with a large market garden, hogs, rabbits, various poultry etc. And we over shot what we could keep up with. It happens. I am sure most people here have been there and done that.

The 2 most telling facts in your posts above are that even with 3 days advance warning you could not get all of your animals under shelter (nor do you appear to have adequate shelter for all of your animals) and that so many cows died without you seeing any signs at all on most of them. The vast majority of the time when an animal dies on our farms it is due to mismanagement of some sort on the farmers part. And it is easy to miss things when you get overwhelmed and you start making mistakes that lead to deaths.

I understand that you see no connection here but I see a definite one and that is why I am asking you for the sake of your farm and your animals to step back and look at the bigger picture. It is a common misconception that the farm life consists of running from crisis to crisis and putting out fires. It is not once you get good fences up and adequate shelter and good feeding programs and a good management system. And you have the right mix and amount of animals to suit your farm and your time and abilities.

I have been reading this thread and noticed the same things Patt is referring to. I grew up in WI with lots of friends and family milking cows. We have had beef cattle as well for years as well. You have lost a lot of animals in a very short amount of time.

I have looked at your pictures and your cows do not look in very good condition, even in the summer. If you are going to bred for winter caving, piglets, or any other winter babies, you need to be able to put your animals in in bad weather. You have lost enough animals to pay for a barn. IMO you ask for help, but don't listen to the answers. When you have so many animals you don't know how old they are until they die something is wrong on the management end. Any good dairyman or cattleman knows his animals very well and keeps good records. That goes for any other type of profitable animal operation. You say you have been doing this for 15 years, yet you don't seem to find a barn necessary. Winter in WI is not new news. There are plenty of good cattle resourses available in WI, why don't you use them?

Let me just say in defense of LFG, that our beef herd does not get brought inside because of snow storms and bad weather. They can get cover in the timber and along the draws and creek. Ranchers in Montana and Wyoming do not get their beef cattle in during the winter unless they are calving. So to say that people should get their cattle in barns when it snows heavily is unrealistic.

Your cattle have feed and wind breaks which is all they need. Her cattle were lacking both, is what most people are saying!

I have to agree with linn, having the cattle outside is not the problem. My cattle are outside all winter in a cold climate. They do have plenty of protection from the wind but I do not breed for mid-winter calves and do bring calving cows inside when the weather is wet and cold. The pics of the cows, as a previous poster said, they look thin. If the cows had a decent body score while dying like flies, then perhaps a toxin might be suspected.
I have found it very hard to buy decent quality round bales and therefore supplement with a small amount but regularly, of a COB feed with molasses added. It gives them a bit of energy/protein/vitamins lacking in the hay. Then they get a 12/12 loose mineral free choice. Supplement according to condition as necessary. It's not rocket science. If LFG's cattle had a decent body score the winter weather by itself would not be killing them off. Sounds like they had just run out of bodily resources and the cold was the straw that broke the camel's back.ck

This is not defense for LFG. Her cows do not have adequate shelter for calving, or to bring them in when they have health problems. Winter in WI is different than WY or MT. It is cold, windy and humid. The big problem is the humidity in the east, south, and s central parts of the state. Animals need more protection in the cold, humid weather in WI than they do in the more arid west. They need more calories. My DD and SIL have beef cattle in NE OR. They calved about 375 cows last spring. They have not lost the number of cows in the last 6 years that LFG has in the last 6 months. Her cows are not getting adequate feed, and when they are stressed, they are suffering and dying.

Where did it say that they were lacking feed? From what I've read they had hay which is all they're fed around here unless they're supplemented with range cubes and/or protein tubs. None of the cows here are brought in, in fact, most of the cows out around me have never seen a barn and many of them are out on wide open places with no shelter and they do calve out in it. Now how many cows these ranchers lose I haven't a clue, but apparently not enough to make them go out of business. I don't know anyone that brings them in. Even the dairies around us don't bring them in. Blizzarding outside and the cows are standing around in the lots outside. Granted, when it gets that cold they need extra nutrition to hold their own against the cold and maintain weight, but I assume if they've been running cattle for 15 years that they know this.

Even when we're calving we don't bring cows in. lol Not unless they're having trouble and they're close enough to the barn/shed with a head catch. Otherwise, they calve out in the open. :shrug:

Something else to remember is that LFG knew something was terribly wrong (hence the thread afterall) but thought she had adequate feed.
I know a lot of lifetime cattlemen who would easily have made the exact same mistake. "Well they have hay a plenty in front of them, just like every other year... Must be an infection of some kind?!?!"
And I've got to admit, if I had a vet who was so uninterested in finding the answer, I wouldn't be particularly interested in any guesses that they happened to throw out, either. Even if they DID happen to be right.

It was a legitimate mistake. A costly one, too. And no doubt one she'll learn from. But to pile on all of this grand-stand quarterbacking doesn't really seem to be particularly helpful.

I didn't read that they had no feed either. The nutritional value of the hay was not adequate, but she did not realize that. We had a problem years ago with poor nutrition in our hay. Luckily we found an old-time vet who told us the problem before we lost any cows. As I read it, her cows had access to minerals also. I will say that I don't think mineral blocks are adequate. We now feed loose mineral. Most beef herds and many large dairy herds never see the inside of a barn here (unless the dairy cows go into the milking parlor and right back out), in Northwest Missouri. We have cold, nasty winters with high humidity. Our beef herd gets hay, minerals and water. They don't get grain unless they are in the home pasture. Telling someone with a lot of cattle that they need to be in a barn isn't feasible. Beating someone over the head after they have suffered a loss like she has sustained serves no purpose except to alienate that person. I am sure that all of us have made mistakes or maybe not used the right judgement in some situations. I am not in her shoes, so I can't speak for her actions.

The very first picture on the blog shows Highland cows with ribs and hips protruding....This is not a sudden thing that 'just' happened. Sorry to say. Ribs, hips and shoulder blades should not be showing on grass that appears green as the picture.

Ok, enough is enough. Lay off LFG. I hate to say it but many of you arm chair farmers really take a chance to get into somebody. LFG is east of me. I am 38 and spent all my life on the farm. You have your good years and your bad. As to the storm we had a few weeks back, we had beef cattle that actually stayed out in the weather even with access to a shed.
As to her problems here I have been waiting to hear what the feed test will show monday. I am with LFG and copperhead all along. With the flood this summer somethign got washed in. The feed idea is really a shot in the dark. As I said before with hay sourced from more then one place. Your chances of cattle starving to death is very slim. From her pictures the only thing I would say is them cows could maybe stand some bug killer. I have seen acouple of times the vets could not explain what happens even though many tests are ran.
So lets all sit back and wait and see what the hay comes upto be and cool it a bit.
Bob

Well said, Bob. :thumb:

Even if the hay comes back poor, unless you're a large cattle rancher or feed lot, most cattle farmers don't get all their hay tested for nutritional content every year so she would have had no way of knowing that something was a miss. I looked at the pics on the blog and some look a tad thin, but not spookily so. Not enough to think they're starving and I tend to agree that first thought would be worms or something. Sometimes animals get sick and die and there are no explanations. It just happens. A lot of things to do with farming are live and learn, you just hope your mistakes don't cost you too much money.

LFG has some serious problems to find the answers to. It doesn't matter what some one thinks she should have done she is where she is at and has to go from there. She has asked questions and said she would take some more pictures for further discussion. Some good information hopefully will come out of this learning experience that every one capable of learning can learn from.

I just hope that LFG's cattle, those that are left, are ready for this next storm! Some are predicting 20" in the Fox Valley with 45 mph winds on Sunday!

Allene

No they do not. I get so tired of hearing this mantra. On well managed farms animals do not just up and die with no explanation. Once in awhile yes you may have an out of the blue problem. But 99% of the time it is due to mismanagement or an overload of animals not due to some quirk of fate or spate of bad luck.

And again nobody is attacking her. We are just pointing out looking at all of her posts taken together there appears to be a bigger problem here and would be a good idea for her to step back and look at the bigger picture.

My Grandfather, Mother and I have raised Angus and Herefords for over 50 years, 100% grass fed, hay, protein and minerals in the winter and we have lost exactly 9 over 50 years!!

Allene

I noticed that too, and thought they should have looked a bit better at that time of the year. Were they wormed at all after the grazing season? Were they grazing previously flooded pastures...Liver Fluke?? ck

''Barn Blind''

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. There probably IS an explanation for every death, but unless you're going to have an autopsy done on every animal that dies, most of the time you're not going to know, unless you knew you were headed for trouble before it died. And even then, sometimes when they die, there's nothing you could have done to prevent it.....but hopefully that's the exception rather than the rule.

I would not say that "99% of the time it's due to mismanagement or an overload". Maybe half the time. shrug. But that's my personal experiences of people I know.

I sure don't see any cattle on your blog page, just one goat, a few chickens and a few pigs. But that kilted guy without the shirt sure looks skinny, I think you had better feed him up. And he needs to be in out of the weather the way he is (or isn't) dressed. :happy0035:

We don't have cattle anymore. :) Our boys are all grown and in the military and we have scaled down to what the 2 of us can handle for the rest of our lives.

Now I have to go look at the blog, my husband writes it so no telling what is on there. He usually wears a shirt with his kilt...... :eek:

All I gotta say is LGF is taking this criticism a LOT better than I would.

My only experience with cows is the dairy herd my grandparents had which put 3 uncles through Cornell and my father through RPI many years ago--apparently they managed their farm okay--they also had a large Leghorn egg operation--in upstate NY--where it's very cold--they had barns but the cows weren't in them much.

Anyway, I spent some time at "your blog" reading about "your opinions" of how to "get" customers (stupid ones it seems) and other nonsense; if you didn't write it and don't know what it says, why have it in your sig line? Seriously...

It was a joke.....it's supposed to be funny. Strangely enough all of our customers got that! And it is for our farm so it is in my signature line. Attacking me over my husband's comical blog posts really is not helping anyone with their cattle now is it?

I didn't attack you; I stated the obvious. You must have some "interesting" customers if they find being called idiots funny; fortunately I am a very boring consumer who can bake her own bread so don't have to rely on your overpriced 24 oz loaves.

LFG's problems are serious; I don't believe they have anything to do with mismanagement. Not really. Part of farming is dealing with unknowns; we aren't all gods, you know. Flooding and droughts or really unusual weather can play havoc with "good management" which is why some years are good and some not so much when you're in that business. She's in a hard place and, IMO, is doing all she can to figure out how to fix it; she posted here asking for help, knowledge and advice. And you essentially told her to give up...nice.