Well, hopefully this is your answer and the end of this problem!

what about protein? Oats and barley will give them energy but they still need a high protein feed to utilize the roughage in the hay.

It was me

Allen, she said they've gotten protein blocks as well as lick tubs...

Thank heaven!
I hope he's right.

Hopefully you have found your problem, but if not here is something to consider. Where did your hay come from? Our local newspapers (here in Arkansas) had a big article over the summer about Jonson or Johnson grass toxicity. A lot of farmers plant this grass because it grows quickly and very tall in the spring. If they are unable to cut their hay (weather or other reasons) in the spring, during the heat of the summer, the grass will actually create an extremely deadly poison. Someone may have trucked their hay off, because this happened. Just a little bit mixed in the hay, can kill your cattle, maybe like a slow poison. The article sited a case where a group of cattle all died after being put on a field that had this grass growing in it. I agree with the others who have mentioned having your hay tested (both kinds). I know our local county extension office does this for a very small fee, like $10-20. It might not be a bad idea to have it tested anyway. Hope your new vet has figured it out!

I just saw this thread, and am so glad to see that you have found a veterinarian who actually cares about their patients and customers! How absolutely frustrating and scary to lose so many animals in such a short time.

The only other thing that came to mind is that perhaps their is something toxic that they've been exposed to. Though since nothing at all is growing on your place, that seems less likely.

A neighbor of mine had a couple of seemingly healthy cows keel over dead like that last spring, and it turned out to be a toxic weed growing in the pasture that had been there for as long as anyone could remember that the cattle just decided to start eating.

Here's a link to info about the toxic weed they found:

http://www.caf.wvu.edu/~forage/libra...ous/page12.htm

I missed that. But some of the protein blocks are like fruit cake, just end up being door stops.

Johnson grass will make prusic acid in the summer when it is dry. Cattle that have been on it contiually aren't affected but cattle put on it that haven't been on it can die. Once it is cut for hay the acid will breakdown and evaperate and is no longer a problem.

Agree with Allen I feed johnson grass that i buy from a friend when I need the extra hay

the hay we bought came from several farmer-neighbors in the immediate vicinity. It was primarily alfalfa/grass, and some marsh grass mixed in.

They are eating the lick tubs pretty steady right now, but seemed to have turned their noses up at the 37% protein blocks. We put those right in the round bale feeders on top of the hay. We have a fourth lick tub of 32% coming on the mill truck tomorrow so there is room for more to lick at once. Actually, they are biting at it.
When DH went to the farm store this morning, they only had 3 in stock and he bought all three.

Thanks for letting us know! Hopefully you have it all figured out now and can maintain the rest of your herd.

In hindsight, it seems like the lesson to be learned is that testing the nutrient content of hay is money well spent. We never tested ours before, either. We get it from the same guy every year, so kind of assumed it was the "same hay". They did great on it last year, so.... But this has turned on the light bulb for me that the weather conditions it was grown under can change everything.

I never knew until this all happened that there was even such a service of hay testing. I guess its one of those times when you smack yourself and say duh!

We will be testing every year from now on, and regardless, we will probably have the protein lick tubs available for them every winter.

They are eating the lick tubs pretty steady right now, but seemed to have turned their noses up at the 37% protein blocks.

The cattle will start eating the protein cubes soon. If you can locate protein cake it will suffice just fine later and should be cheaper.

In all fairness to the veterinarians, based on your earlier post, it appears the other two vets DID correctly diagnose the problem, although it seems you chose not to listen to them or take their advice. :shrug:

I'm glad the third vet made some headway, and hope your remaining cattle recover.

Doesn't it seem weird for alfalfa grass mix hay that isn't just a pile of sticks or mold, to be lacking in protein enough for cattle to die though? I mean seriously!

Redmond salt is a great product, but it isn't exactly a mineral supplement. If you are really lacking in minerals or have imbalances (like need copper or selenium) it won't fill it. It will more or less supplement those minerals. Redmond does have some mineral mixes and maybe that is what you're feeding. These are redmond salt with minerals added. I use their Range mix. Their minerals have no added iron which is great.

Willow girl, if a vet told me my cattle were "lacking groceries" when I had hay sitting in front of them 24/7 and they showed good condition, it wouldn't mean anything to me either. Perhaps further inquiry on my part would get something that made sense to me though.

Now if he said, your hay is likely lacking in sufficient protein because of conditions this growing season, as the last vet apparently did, that is different. But lacking groceries I take to mean no grist for the mill at all, not just the wrong kind.

lonelyfarmgirl

My cattle are grass fed 365 days per year. They have never had any grain other than forage seeds as they graze and no protein tubs or cake. I do have mineral supplement based on my location and forage. Once you get everything back to normal you should be fine. Do you watch their body condition score? If not, you need to and make certain they stay above BCS5. I may have a heifer that calved in the Fall that will drop during winter to BCS 4.5

Agman, based on other posts, you have a herd of cattle that have been selected and the herd built around your grass management over a period of years. LFG sounded like they have a hodge podge herd, she mentioned Highland, Longhorn and dairy breeds. Not apples to apples with your herd and especially climate. But still a good rule of thumb to keep the BCS at a 5 or better.

+1

I saw it the same way.

Willow girl, from my reading of LFG's posts, nobody actually made a proper diagnoses until the third vet, and nobody gave advice on how to deal with it.

Agman, you and I are in the lucky position of not having to deal with inclement weather conditions - LFG did say that she had something like a foot of snow over her pasture. I can't even imagine trying to farm under those conditions! MO_cows, I also milk/run a hotch-potch of cattle but because 6 frosts in a winter in my area is considered a drama, they do well because even with slow grass growth, the idea is to get them into prime condition on autumn growth and then use hay and slow growth grass as a maintenance feed over the winter. Your right, no long periods of snow and minus temperatures makes for a different - and easier - farming.

LFG, am well pleased that you have got to the root of the problem and no doubt it has been a steep, sad and expensive learning curve for you. This new vet seems to have struck the right chord for you, given you a diagnoses and gone on to give good advice on how to fix it. This is what I expect from a vet. Can I just add that if you still have any money in the cheque account:( that you invest in a drum of molassas. This can be watered down with warm water and dribbled over their hay which will ensure that they eat every last scrap of it, or given in a molassas lick. A lick is a big round ball about the size of a basketball that fits inside a container. The container is filled with molassas and warm water and the cows lick the ball. Also, are you able to buy PKE in the States. Another good, and reasonably cheap, source of protein and energy.

While I'm sure that part of you is feeling really gutted, the other part is feeling hugely relieved. It can only get better.:)

Cheers,
Ronnie

Ummm Hello? Are we reading the same posts here?

By the OP's own admission, the second vet told her that her ration was lacking and tried to steer her to a nutritionist! Instead of listening, she argued the merits of a grass-based program with him. What's a vet to do if a client argues that their way is the best despite their cows dropping dead?

I feel bad for LFG's loss, but I don't think it was proper to insult those veterinarians.

OK, I think I've said my piece now.

Well I will make this short. First off when sourcing hay from a couple of farmers. The chance of feeding all poor hay is slim to none. Many have to remeber here in Wisconsin many fertilizer thier hay feilds for better yeilds. This in turn dose help produce better quiality feed.
Also did any of these cattle look like they had hay guts? I mean thin and boney with big bellys? When was the last time they was debugged and wormed?

Now here is the part many will find hard to beleive. The reason teh first 2 vets said feed and the third said it is. When a vet does not know what is wrong they give the farmer a answer that in all likely hood will cause the farmer to chase all over the place trying to come up with more answers. I am not being a smartash here. But it true. Been around them and worked with them long enough to know how things work. Another thing is a vet will never ever admit they are wrong.


NOW !!!! Keep a eye on them cattle. They can get protein posioning from eating them tubs!!!
Well off to chores.
Bob

I would like to see some photos of the remaining cattle as they look right now. Personally, feed was my first thought too.

I know in our area there is a lot of talk that the feed in general is not as good quality as normal. This is because of all the rain, the plant didn't take up as much nutrition as it would with less rain....

The feed tests she sent for should tell the story.

double post

Mine does. :shrug:
In fact, he'll even call when he's said something wrong. "You remember last spring when we were talking about that abscess and I thought....? Yeah, well turns out it was actually...."
Both of my vets are also REALLY good about telling you when they simply haven't a clue.
One is in his late 50s and the other in his early 50s. The whole area worries about the day they retire. ;)


I had asked DH about this question earlier in the week, so when you found your answer, I told him yesterday.
He says when he was a kid, they'd had a neighbor who'd had basically the same thing happen.
He was feeding a handful of yearlings over the winter and almost all of them died. Perfectly healthy looking and died with full bellies.
However, unlike his cattle, who got cake because they were fed prairie hay, the yearlings were getting nice alfalfa hay. He didn't supplement them because it was alfalfa, afterall...

I think that one of the most important things as well as one of the most overlooked with livestock is nutrition. It is cheap and in some cases free (check with your extension office) to have your soil, water and hay tested. We test our hay every year (more often if we have to buy) and our soil and water every 2-3 years. Then you KNOW what minerals and supplements are lacking.. This is even more important when raising animals mainly on grass and forage. Also, invest in a GOOD loose mineral. I really like the cargill "right now" line. They have different mixes based on the time of year and type of forage. Cattle can starve to death with full bellies, but it sounds like you have learned this the hard way and I am sorry about that..

I hope you have discovered the problem.Best wishes for a good year from now on, sounds like you have already had your share of trouble.

Ronney

Your statement

Willow girl, from my reading of LFG's posts, nobody actually made a proper diagnoses until the third vet, and nobody gave advice on how to deal with it.

Please read post #28

Ummm Hello? Are we reading the same posts here?

By the OP's own admission, the second vet told her that her ration was lacking and tried to steer her to a nutritionist! Instead of listening, she argued the merits of a grass-based program with him. What's a vet to do if a client argues that their way is the best despite their cows dropping dead?

I feel bad for LFG's loss, but I don't think it was proper to insult those veterinarians.

OK, I think I've said my piece now.
__________________


The second vet knew nothing about the situation! He had never been here, and wasn't handling the case. All he did was exhibit disgust that I don't have a nutritionist regulating a grain ration for grass-fed cattle. I said this already. And this vet, on numerous other occasions has made up stupid stuff to cover up the fact that he didn't have an answer. That would be a typical behavior of his.
Any insult he got from me was a long time coming. Just because I am not a vet doesn't mean I am an idiot, and he has treated me like one for a long time.

The whole reason for finally posting this story here is because I am fed up with their stupidity, lack of care, and lack of real answers.
Had he bothered to do a decent job, we may not have lost so many animals. I pay him to solve my animal health issues, not to say stupid things like "they get hay all the time? They need more groceries, and good hay and minerals for grass-fed cattle isn't enough."

lonelyfarmgirl

I believe that your problem was identified by me in post #28 after reading your description of the problem in post #27. I did not post until then because I had trouble following the earlier information. I am not looking for credit for anything as I was only trying to assist. In the same attitude I want to also share something else. You state you are using Redmonds minerals. I know that many folks swear by the product. I know that some folks do not bother to read the labels either and if they do read them they do not go to the effort to understand what was read. Obviously I do not know which Redmonds product you are using. However, I think it would behoove you to verify the selenium requirements for beef cattle in PPM for selenium and compare what is being offered in some of the mineral supplements they sell.

What are Strongolids? I did a google search and came up with nothing. You said the UW test came back with strongolids, but not excessive. Is it a parasite of some sort?

Strongyloides
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in...m/bc/22405.htm

Thanks!

we have a mineral block in there also that is the other stuff redmond does not provide. Then they can choose, as the redmond is primarily salt.

Your cattle have had a rough few months and I feel for you and them trying to get to the bottom of it.
I looked at your web site and I see that through the blizzard you just had, that most of your cattle are outside, not unusual for sure, but it looked like they didn't have much protection, if any from wind etc. I know your Highlands could probably cope better with the winter but do you think your longhorns suffer from not having a place to get out of the weather, especially with the blizzard and extreme cold you had there? Along with the low quality of feed maybe this contirbuted to them losing so much condition?
My Dexters spend most of the time out, but I know they appreciate being able to get out of the biting wind when it's 30 below with the windchill.
I wish you well and hope that you can get your herd back on track,

Carol K

I understand your concern. We have a couple 3 sided buildings, and one has extended wing walls made of those giant concrete blocks. they use those for wind blocks, and one of the 3 sided huts is opened for calving and nursing cows and has a creep gate in the back for the babies to go into, which they do. Otherwise there is no shelter. The longhorns, we bought from a guy that lives 2 hours north of here. He has wide open fields and they stay outside all winter just like here, and he has nothing for wind blocks at all. All he has is longhorns and they do fine there, we figured, why wouldn't they here?

Honestly, they surprise me. They are skinny and bony, but that's genetics. They came that way mid-summer and they were very healthy. Our bull came from somewhere else, and physically looks totally different, but he also is very bony, in general.
They really haven't lost much in the way of condition, its the hereford crosses that have suffered the most. A longhorn cow was one of the ones that dropped dead without warning, and without losing condition, and the longhorn bull is one of the three that suddenly got skinny on us. We have 3 longhorn cows left, and the bull.

Actually, from a meat producer stand point, they aren't a good choice. We will probably get rid of them in the fall, and replace them with cows that carry heavier muscle mass.

Judging by the picture of the cattle in your Feb. 5 blog entry you will be awhile getting your cattle back in shape. Hopefully you have a solid plan in place for taking care of them and getting weight on them. I wish you the best of luck.

Just one more note on Johnson grass poisoning. Johnson grass, due to fertilization and drought (or damaged or frosted on), will develop cyanide and nitrate toxins. When cut for hay the cyanide MOSTLY evaporates, but the nitrate toxins DO NOT evaporate. Hay should be tested for toxins. Symptoms can be sudden death in cattle. "Cyanide poisoning is very acute and affected animals exhibit difficult breathing, anxious expression, staggering and usually become recumbent, have convulsions and die. Animals may show signs within 15-30 minutes after consuming plants containing cyanide and may die very quickly. The blood is usually bright red.

In nitrate poisoning, the symptoms are similar except the blood is characteristically chocolate-brown."

Here is a quick link, but theres lots of info out there: http://www.caf.wvu.edu/~forage/libra...nous/page7.htm
And this is just ONE of the many poisonous plants out there we have to watch for.

Hello, New to the forum, but not new to cattle.

You said that they have access to a mineral block. What type. In our experience most mineral blocks are trace minerals, and don't really have enough mineral in them to be called a mineral block. They are mostly just salt.
A good loose mineral fed free choice. One that's been developed for your particular area and what is deficient there is best. You'll find after feeding a good loose mineral..you'll have overall better herd health, as well as a little more weight on those calves come weaning time than you normally do without the loose mineral.
Vigertone is an excellant mineral if it's available in your area. If not...you can contact them, and they most likely can get it to you, or steer you in the right direction to a dealer.

So sorry you've had to go through this ordeal and lost so many head.
I agree with the having the hay tested. Every cutting, no matter where it comes from. If you raise it yourself...or if you buy it. Get it tested so you'll know what you've got to add to that ration to keep them up to par. We supplement with a liquid protein syrup lick instead of the tubs. Just because it's more convenient for our operation.

LFG,I'm so sorry for your losses. How terrible.
This has made want to get my hay tested even though I got it from 3 different people this winter.
Also I have Highlands and a couple of Highland crosses.
You said you didn't loose any of yours (being known to be hardier)
So they are really that much hardier,that is good to know! And kind of amazing!
Wishing you and your cattle all the best from now on,
Chris

I agree with Allen, those cows are in poor, poor condition in that photo.

You might want to check these links out for future reference. Beef cows should be in a score of 5-6 range.

http://www.thecattlesite.com/article...ring-beef-cows

http://www.wikihow.com/Judge-Body-Co...ores-in-Cattle

http://www.cowbcs.info/photogallery.html