This seasons twins......
 

We seem to have at least one set of twin calves every year. two years ago we had twin bulls. Last year we had two sets of bull/hiefer twins, one set live and healthy, one set born dead. This year we just had a set of bull/hiefer twins. Of course the liklihood of the hiefer breeding is very low. I'll be doing the freemartin test on her tomorrow to see if she is breedable. Probably not. She is the brown calf, the bull is the red one.

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I hate seeing bull/hiefer twins born. Its so disapointing to have a heifer that won't ever breed.

The family seems to have a thing about sticking their tongue out at the camera.:cool:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a61...momstongue.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a61...boystongue.jpg

Very nice.

Very nice

How do you do a freemartain test?

my twin heifers are just like yours in color one red and one black

wondering if they are out of the bull from Sally kind to my bull

Oh, the heifer calf is so cute! I love her color. Looks like she's been walking through something white... snow, clouds, marshmallow creme?? :) I'm also curious about the test...

Yes, they are.;)

Its a probe test. If it goes in easily all the way, its a heifer. If not, its a free-martin. You can also do a blood test.

According to my vet, she is breedable......:eek:

Its not a 100% test....its pretty close though. So she is staying! Sally showed me how to do the probe test myself so no more two-hour drives with a twin heifer.

Will you be sending in the blood test just to be sure? That is so cool that she probed ok.

Yes, it will be cheaper than keeping her until she is old enough to breed, only to find she wont. Of course I guess that depends on if we need beef......;)

By the way, we had another set of twins, but it wasn't as happy a result. the old cow had them during the night and they were slightly premie. They were both bulls, one born dead, one born very weak. He did not stand or suck for three days. After three days of tubing, he sucked a bottle and staggered to his feet. He still isn't right, but we are hoping for a happy ending. If anyone is interested, I will probably be giving him away to anyone who might like to see if he will thrive. Will only do that if he starts acting normal though.

In the beef industry we cull ( sold in the kill pen) cows who produce twins if she doesn’t die giving birth.
One or more of the calves will most likely die and those that live turn out to be below average calves.
Then there is the problem of the cow only accepting one and having to bottle feed the other. And if she does accept both they both will be below average calves. And if they are mixed with your good calves at sale time your entire lot gets docked.
Then there is the stress on the cow of raising 2 calves on the teat and being bred back with on in the belly.
3 calves on the same cow are just too much and you are just asking for more trouble.
IMO Twins are far more trouble and risky then they are worth.
IMO, all twins should be sold for beef only to help get that bad gene out of the gene pool no matter how cute and lovable they are.
OT

Emily I'll be interested in hearing from the blood test on your twin heifer as well. We also usually have twins born yearly. We don't usually, but have keep a twin heifer calf that is a twin to a bull calf and have found that some will go ahead and breed and some will not. We don't test either way and just raise beef cattle and most are sold at about 500 to 575 pounds at auction. Keep us updated on the results please. Sandy

It has nothing to do with being cute and cuddly. It has to do with a heifer who can breed and give milk is a valuable commodity on a dairy. Especially a small family dairy.

Culling a cow because she gives you twins once is just silly in my opinion. These cows are both several years old and have never had twins before. The chances are, they will never give me twins again. Cull a valuable healthy milker because she gave me twins once?? I think not. Maybe if she had twins every year.

Bottle-feeding? Not an issue as ALL dairy calves on a dairy are bottle-raised.

A dairy cow on a dairy does not raise her own calves past two days old, so more than one calf on a cow is not an issue. Not to mention, unlike beef cows, a dairy cow can easily raise two, three, or four calves at a time if properly fed as they give much more milk than one calf can drink.

Your viewpoint is beef. Not the same at all.

Ozark,
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You need to rethink that.
IMO dairy farmers are in both the milk and beef business.
Plus dairy farmers face the very same breeding and calving problems as beef cow/calf operations. And they pay the very same rates for their vet & medications bills.
And they both sell their calves for new and/or replacements stock.

In my fathers time dairy calves, that weren’t held for replacement were only sold as veal.
Now, with the advent of cheap fast food burger, dairy calves are sold as a cheap grade of beef.

If you knowingly sell your freemartin at auction and your neighbor buys it with the intent of starting a herd, wouldn’t you feel just a little guilty?
And if the word got out that you knowingly did this, your reputation just might be shot to H for the future.
I tag all my heifers, born to a twin bull, with a FM tag at birth so I am sure not to keep her as a replacement, or to attempt/mistakenly sell her as a heifer settled or not.
But that’s just me.
OT
FYI:
To have a vet come out and treat a prolapse cost about $450.
Many cases of prolapse are caused by the birth of twins.

I'm just gonna step in here, and it's really none of my business, but I don't think Ozark Jewels said anything about taking a free martin to the auction to fool anyone. She's a smart and savvy business woman, and an honest woman, not a trader just trying to make a buck off of one calf.

Emily, I pmed you.

Copperhead,
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I don’t think she is either, nor did I mean to imply it.
Which is why I said “IF” being the keyword and “YOU” being used in the plural sense, not meaning anyone in particular.

I was just trying to point out that by not cleansing the gene pool and passing the gene on, knowingly or not, you can hurt your reputation by hurting others.
Sorry I put it in the form of a question directed at Ozark.
OT

If you read what she wrote she is getting the heifer tested to insure it is not a freemartin. She's not selling her to someone. If the heifer is a freemartin, she will sell her for beef only or butcher her herself, I'm sure.

Your point would make sense if, like Emily said, it was one line or cow that did this, but since it pops up pretty randomly, culling doesn't really make sense.

I http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/a...ons/debate.gif

Oxark, sorry if I offended you
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/a...Icons/rose.gif

SouthernGurl,

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No test can insure that. All it can do is show she MAY be able to breed.
Which IMO is a 50/50 chance of it happening. Where as a non freemartin is almost a 99% certainty.

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That’s fine, but it does not, if sold at auction, mean that she will be bought for beef.

Re:
Culling is the only way to remove this gene weather it is dominate or recessive.

A cow may have several calves before having twins. This indicates the gene is recessive and is most likely being passed on to her offspring, where it very well may then become dominate. Or it may not show up for another generation or two if it remains recessive then turns dominate.
Culling is the only proven way to stop the passing on of an unwanted gene.
OT

Oldtimer, one of the beef ranchers out where I used to live had a set of quads a few years ago. Some kind of hereford or hereford cross. SOOOOOO cute. All her other years she'd thrown singles, and one year she threw twins, I think the article said... All her other calves grew up perfect and fine, as did the quads. We had another rancher a couple years before who had a cow who threw triplets, and the newspaper article said that several years before, a cow in the area had had quints. So... you wouldn't keep a cow who threw multiples that thrived? I know multiples aren't popular in cattle, but seems to be if she births them fine, raises them fine, keeps herself at a good weight, and breeds back just fine, there would be no point in culling her...

The inheritability of twinning in cattle is proven to be *extremely* low. The man who had this herd before me, kept NO twins. So these cows are not inheriting the twin gene from that. The occurence of twins has more to do with the age of the cow(twins happen more in older cows, same as deformaties do.), and the diet of the cows at the time of breeding, the diet causing higher ovulation rates. It has been proven that twins are more likely to come in groups at certain times of the year, indicating that it is influenced by the cows condition at time of breeding.
It does not run in families in this herd. It just happens now and then. Most have been Holstiens, unrelated. These two are crossbreds, also unrelated.
I'm sorry, but culling has nothing to do with this situation. Your opinion is noted.

Not offended, just remain unconvinced.:)

Just a note. But no cow has ever given me twins twice. Interesting.

I've actually never seen twins before.

Ozark I am with you I will not cull my cow that give me twins this year for that reason alone.....thinking a 7 gallon a day to me is worth way to much ....thats a cow that feeds 28 calfs all by herself...those cows are hard to fine for me....on the amount of feed I feed....even if they have 5 die calfs the MILK IN A MILK COW is what I am after..they raise calfs from the milk a calf is only $55 to $75 to replace the one I would lose ......and finding or growing a replacement cost WAY MORE THEN THAT

The reason I said your viewpoint is beef is the above. All the reasons you state above, do not apply in a dairy herd.

oldtimer posted In the beef industry we cull ( sold in the kill pen) cows who produce twins if she doesn’t die giving birth


I think you need to change that to ...YOU CULL

I DID A POLL AT THE COFFEE SHOP ....7 beef people said no to the culling just for having twins.....one man said he bought a cow for $1100 she had twins and he pulled one from her and gave it to neighbor ...if he culled her he would not get no were near that for her.....so he is keeping her around

And around here all heifers are tubed at the sale barn and marked accordingly if they are freemartins - or expected to be - I'm sure it's the same most anywhere. she would not be able to trick anyone into buying what they think is a good heifer, should they test short.

This is my experience with the beef ranchers I know too. In fact one likes his cows that produce twins (as long as they can manage it) because they give him 2 calves instead of 1 when the truck comes in the fall to pick up the calves, that's more money in his pocket.

819,
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I would in a heart beat. Especially if she was a Red Angus or had Red Angus in her as they are well know to prolapse. If not then they most likely will the next time around.

Re:
True! Particularly with cattleman who are in the register herd business and breed for genetic make up.
Cow calf operator, who breed for number of calves produced, seem to love twins and will brag about getting two for one. Kinda like a BOGO sale.
But what they fail to realize is twins become a lesser quality calf and mamma who had twins, has a harder time giving birth and most often needs help and will have a longer breed back time.

Re:
That’s 4 ’IFS” and I can add about 10 more.
One being did she need assistance while calving.
Did you, ( hypothetically) ( you is plural, no one person in mind) have to go out in freezing weather at 4 AM in the middle of the field to assist her? Could this also happen the next time she calves, and the next?
Does your day job allow you time off to do around the clock surveillance in case she needs assistance? Each year?
If you have little or no knowledge of cattle can you afford the vet bills? Provided you can get one out when you need him/her when the cow needs immediate attention?

These are all rhetorical questions and are meant not to be answered. But are intended to provoke thought.
IMO multiple births are to high a risk for little or no rewards.

All I ask is that if you think mutable births are good or great, is for youins to keep both the mammas and the calves on your farm until they assume room tempture or direct them to the “kill pen“, so as not to pass these risks on to someone else.
Thank you

OT

Re:
Where is the coffee shop??? I have been looking for one and can’t seem to fine it and was going to suggest one be added to the cattle forum.
How do I get there?
OT

FYI,

Here is a site that address “calving ease” by breeders.
Source: http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/abstract/64/1/65

Also see: ANIMAL GENETICS
Genetic relationships among calving ease, calving interval, birth weight, and weaning weight in the Asturiana de los Valles beef cattle breed1
Source: http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/1/69

Also see:
Managing To Avoid Calving Difficulty

Source: http://www.cattlenetwork.com/Managin...id=760&Print=1
IMO,
Multiple births most often causes abnormal calf presentation and therefore causes dystocia.
OT

As I stated back at the beginning of this thread, I DO NOT LIKE TWINS. Just because I'd rather have one calf instead of two.
I've never had a cow prolapse because of twins, never lost one due to twins, and only ever had to help one due to a backwards twin calf. I have also had to assist several SINGLE calves who were backwards. The twins I've raised all grew well and were not smaller than singles the same age. In fact, the heifer I kept from last years twins is bigger than her sisters.
But since its mostly a cows condition or age which causes twins, culling a cow that has twins ONCE, would be culling her for something THAT I CAUSED. If you want to do this, you go right ahead. Don't consider everyone who does not to be irresponsible.

As I've said, twins are proven barely inheritable. So "passing on the risks" is hardly happening.

A twin here or there is UNAVOIDABLE, cull or not, you will still get twins BECAUSE GENETICS ARE NOT CAUSING IT.

Of course I would cull a line that continually had twins. That would just be common sense as I do not prefer twins. But culling a cow because she gives you twins once is just stupid IMO, since its highly likely that genetics had NOTHING to do with it.

Remaining unconvinced.

I too asked my beef breeder friends. Two had never had twins, but one had and he said of course he didn't cull her as she had never had twins before and its causes are usually enviromental, not genetic.

I'm off to milk my cows and feed my calf pens. Some hobby I must say.;)

Ozark, et al
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That is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it, as am I entitled to mine.

Re:
Then how do you explain why some animals as a rule, such as cattle and horses and even humans, give birth to a single off spring and others, such as pigs and dogs, give birth to multiple off spring?
Is that not controlled by genetics?

Q. Have youens (plural/not intended for anyone person in particularly) ever thanked a cattle breeder for his/her years of commitment and investment to provide you with the very high quality, milk producing/calf producing and healthy animal you now own?
Have you ever even thought about it? Or do you think that quality animal fell from the sky or off a tree?
Do you really thing cattle breeders motivation was greed or perhaps the love of their chosen field of work and their love of animals, coupled with a commitment to helping all mankind have a better way of life?
Just some food for thought!

Have youins ever thought about all the special interest groups you support that black mails the government into imposing all kinds of government regulations onto both dairy and cattleman that they must adhere to? (Add ) at considerable expense?

Note to self: You ended that one with a preposition! “Your bad “or should that be “you’re bad?” Hummmmmm?
Ha Ha. I fixed it!
OT
Coffee shop comments:
PS: I once had a dream where I had crossed a soybean plant with a peanut plant and was harvesting soybeans above the ground and peanuts from below the ground.
Was I being greedy in that dream?
PSS: I also had a dream where I was eating marshmallows and when I woke up I couldn’t find my pillow! ?????

I emailed you back. Just letting you know since I've had emails now show up lately!

Might as well throw in my two cents. There are certain genetics that will cause multi births and thats not good, but if we go to something I know about which is goats, we do whats called flushing to the does, we pen them up, feed them like crazy to make them ovulate more before harvesting the eggs. Its well documented in nature that when feed is good, more babies are born, when its not then they dont produce as many and often narrow their litter to the best one.
Now, if you dont mine me saying OJ I say theres a case of animals being well fed probably promoting the over ovulation. There are times too you can see in the afterbirth the little knobs that where babies that never became anything, dont know about cows, but in formentioned pigs, goats, horses ect.

Cullings a wonderful tool, but doing it for a one time occurrence with other environmental causes is too hasty. One of the respects I have for OJ is that shes strong enough to kill her own dinner and keep it about business and not the cute little whatever or I fed that on a bottle.

This has made for interesting reading though and the thing I love the most about this forum is the healthy debates without fighting we can have..

One thing I have always wondered, if a cow is ment to have one calf, why does it have four teats? if a goat is capable of having 3 and 4 kids (or more) and raising them, why do they only have two teats?

OK, bottom line!
Can multiple births cause a problem for “ease of birth”?
A. yes.
Case closed!
OT