registered or unregistered? That is the question.
 

I have a farm near me that is selling Dexters. She inherited the farm after her mom passed away and apparently some breeding happened that wasn't documented or controlled while the mom was sick beforehand.

The new owner (the daughter) is offering to sell me an unregistered 2-3yr old Dexter that she would put with her bull for a few weeks before I took her so she'd hopefully be bred. She's asking $500 for the 2-3yr old bred unregistered Dexter.

I found another farm in my area with Dexters that are registered. She wants $1200 for a bred cow (not sure the exact age).

I'm not looking to start a cow sales business so I'm not sure how important the registration is. I would either keep the calf if it's a cow and possibly breed opposite times so we'd always have a cow in milk or castrate and keep the bull calf to slaughter weight. If it's a cow we might do that anyway.

We'd only rebreed if our heifer went dry and we needed to get her lactating again. Which again would only be for either our (and family/friend) meat consuption or possibly sell a calf if we didn't need the beef and couldn't find a buyer for it.

Is it better to pay extra for the registration or if you're only looking for personal dairy/meat use does it really matter? I was planning to go look at the farms in December since I would pick the cow I liked before they were bred to the bull I chose.

Any advice would be most welcomed.

Well if your going to just keep a cow to milk, the registration papers would or could help you start a fire in your stove some day if you want. Other than that it is of no value to you unless you are going to start a purebred livestock breeding farm. Guess it is a record of the bloodline of your cow and could be of help if you want to A.I. breed her some day. > Thanks Marc

When an animal has been registered, it means that the breed association has run the breeder's herd records thru a system of checks and balances, like a mini-audit by a 3rd party. On a registration certificate, you get a pedigree and often weights and EPD's.

On a non-registered animal, you get the sellers word, period.

If you aren't interested in maintaining the registrations on calves you breed and raise, and you want to save a few bucks up front, you can do fine with unregistered animals. However keep in mind you don't know if she is from a bloodline that milks well, how related the heifer might be to the bull it is getting bred to, etc.

As far as I understand on the unregistered, up until the point where the owner got ill and died they were all registered. How it goes after that...well, it's anyone's guess though they know "roughly" which bull/cow combo's produced what animals, they don't know for sure and tended to keep the ones apart that were questionable.

Unless you are planning to sell registered Dexters, the registration is not worth the extra cost. If you just want a family milk cow, I would go with the unregistered heifer. The main thing is to check the background of the cow or heifer you buy. Is the animal from a milking lineage? Not all Dexters are from a dairy-type lineage. Any lineage that is heavy in Woodmagic, Lucifer of Knotting, or Brambledel Redberry Prince is a good milking line.
When bred to an Angus, a Dexter cow will produce a wonderful beef calf.

You can't eat or drink those registration papers so as long as you're not trying to get into selling niche' market cattle I wouldn't care. Anyway, I've learned most of the costs of registering cattle go towards administration costs. It's like job perpetuation.

As has been mentioned, unless you have a specific purpose where papers are required (you're a bull seller, for example) registration is pointless.

several of my cows are registered but I don't have papers on them. the guy I bought them from was going into the registered cow business and make a kiling. I tried telling him that it was a nitch rich boy market and he would end up selling the calfs for the same price as unregistered ones. two years later he was bankrupt because he bought 3 thousand dollar cows and was forced to sell on the "grade" calf market. my bulls all come from registered parents but they themselves are not registered. depends on what you need for a payback as to wether its worth it or not. for me its not econical to pay for the paperwork but I do understand the benifit.

I've got a coworker who has successfully lost his shorts the past three years on an initial investment into 20 head of heavy bred angus heifers. (registered of course). He gave more than sale barn price for them, paid a pretty fair sum for getting all the registrations brought into his name, paid fees for joining the Angus association, and paid for a small add in a local stock magazine to advertise.

His original intention was to sale replacement heifers and herd bulls. However, with the market dictating "black" as the high seller at the salebarn, it hasn't yet specified "must be registered angus in order to draw top dollar.". Those would-be heifer or bull buyers are going to individuals or sales that offer sires and dams proven to have a high percentage of black offspring. (sometimes some bull in their lineage is known as well that will inhance their value.)

From my humble observations at the local salebarn, I've tended to see that it doesn't matter what you have at home as a bull and a cow doesn't matter much. As long as the offspring is black and reasonably shaped as a bovine, and it's BLACK, and it's Black, and did I mention "and it's black?", it's gonna sale well at the market. (you might be able to take a giraffe to the sale barn and get top dollar for it it's black. lol.)

As a result of going into the registered angus business and trying to keep up with the big boys, my coworker is selling his calves at the market beside the unregistered ones and receiving the same price per pound out of his. (That is, minus all his costs of registrations and fees.)

He has recently cut his losses and stopped registering the offspring and just treats his herd as market cattle and is doing quite nicely.

There you have it.

Its been said that ther are only two reasons for papers: 1) if the person your selling to wants papers, and is willing to pay for them. 2) you want papers and are willing to pay for them.

There is a benefit to having the registration papers on your stock. First of all, if you want a purebred animal, it gives you that assurance. There are a lot out there who sell 'purebred but I didnt keep up the paperwork', and those animals are often mixed breed. Then, there are genetic issues that can be traced to certain bloodlines. If you have the pedigree, you would know whether your prospective purchase should be tested to see if she was a carrier of a genetic lethal. If bred to a bull with the same recessive gene, it could mean the risk of your cow dying while attempting to deliver an affected calf. The person who only wants one or two cows for milk and beef, and is not interested in purebred stock breeding, should nevertheless be aware of the genetic issues in their chosen breed and the need to test.ck

Unfortunately, getting registration papers does not always guarantee that you are getting the animal registered. It is very easy in breeding Dexters to make sure that you don't get a bulldog calf. You just make sure your cow is not bred to a carrier. All the Dexter bulls advertised for semen usually list whether the bull is a carrier.

Yup, and chondro (dwarfism, 'bulldog gene') is dominant not recessive, therefore not hidden, altho having said that some dwarfs look almost normal. Chondo carriers are also not identified on their registration paper. I was thinking more of the PHA lethal recessive, and the first wave of testing was done using info from the pedigrees. The second wave of testing was done by breeders wishing to guarantee buyers that all their stock was PHA free. The discovery of this recessive in Dexters is very recent, and there is the possibility that PHA carriers or potential carriers are being sold without papers.ck

Is asking about the PHA something people would come clean about? Would it affect the milk or meat in any unregistered I purchase? I wish I had someone with cow knowledge to turn to here, that could maybe go with me to the farm. I just don't know enough about this stuff and now I'm getting worried...

Well I think I might have learned more from this thread than the OP. I never knew Dexters carried all those genetic defects.

Hi UUMom, The test for PHA is only $25, using a tail hair sample. A PHA carrier is an otherwise normal animal, but you need to know the PHA status so as not to breed to another carrier, risking the life of the cow. Or (much better), buy one that is tested PHA free. All breeds have their genetic issues, and luckily with the newer technologies, we can test.ck

You're probably right on all accounts.

However, having lived on large ranches (800-2200 head) all over the Great Plains for the past 20 years, I have to say, the only producers who care about papers are purebred breeders.
Commercial operations simply do not care. Not about cows and heifers, anyway. Bulls, of course, are a different story.
And that's probably the perspective most of us are coming from.

ErinP, I have to disagree. Here is a link to genetic abnormalities in beef breeds, and some Associations are implementing mandatory testing.

http://beefmagazine.com/genetics/avo...orst_20100201/

For example, one major beef breed Association is requiring testing and reporting for diluter/rat tail, idiopathic epilepsy, hypotrichosis, another breed had limber leg, breeds other than Dexter have their own variation of PHA, etc etc etc. With knowledge of bloodlines, these serious defects can be tracked down, and are being eliminated because they affect the bottom line.
In a minor breed like Dexter, it may not have much to do with a 'bottom line', but more about avoiding heartache in a small family herd. And so easy to do, if you know about it.ck

I think all "rare breeds" should have papers. Obviously for perpetuation of the breed, but financially as well. A private sale of a dexter with papers is worth much more than throwing them into the auction. And if you want milk... you will have calves.

:confused:
With what, in particular?
That I think you're probably right on all accounts? That I've lived on ranches all over the northern high plains? That most commercial producers don't give a fig for registration papers?

Sorry erinP, too hasty reading and ill thought out on my part. I guess what I was trying to say is that non pedigree breeders get a spin off benefit because of the ability of purebred breeders to trace the bloodlines that have genetic defects and work towards eliminating them. After all, is it not the purebred breeders that provide the good bulls for commercial herds? ck

Yep.
But you're just proving my point that purebred operations care and commercial operations don't. ;)

:croc::croc: LOL

Commercial operations don't spend the money and do the extra work required for registered cattle, and for selling by the pound at the sale barn it doesn't pencil out anyway. BUT, most commercial producers of any scale still want registered bulls. Calving ease, growth rates, carcass traits, milk in daughters, etc. are all more predictable thanks to actual records and EPD that come from the breed registries.

Commercial operations most certainly care about genetic traits. Otherwise we wouldn't make any money. When choosing a bull, we look for calving ease, weight gain and no known abnormalities. As the pp stated, sires are chosen for their good qualities. We always keep the best heifers out of our proven sires. If our bulls started producing abnormal or growth deficient calves, then they would go and we would not choose any more from that line. As I stated in a previous post, just because papers come with an animal, that doesn't mean you are getting the animal on record.

I don't think anyone said otherwise, did they?

Sorry, I guess you meant commercial operations didn't care about registration, I took your statement to mean they didn't care about genetics.

How do you know for sure the breeding is as it says? If a breeder has multiple bulls, no mixups or bulls jumping fences or neighbor bulls jumping fences?

I visited a breeder in June and saw a young bull (10 months?) hanging with the cows and heifers before the breeding season. I asked how he knew that guy wasn't breeding and he said he couldn't but if any early calves happened he'd do a DNA test.

Okay.

oh dear so I'm still so confused! I found another breeder that will have Jersey calves, again no papers this is the ad if you can get to it http://www.ocala4sale.com/classifieds/10525526871.php It would take me longer with getting just a calf to have milk BUT I've never owned a cow so I'm thinking growing up with my 5 kids and having the time to go through her whole pregnancy would be beneficial.

Again, though, this is a mixed cow or at least a jersey with no papers. It seems from many ads that this is a common practice (selling w/o papers)

If you are new to milking, I suggest you pay a little more and get a gentle cow that is broke to milk. It may cost more, but it will save a lot of time and tears in trying to deal with an unbroke cow or a nervous heifer. You can't milk papers. Most family milk cows around here don't come with papers. If I just wanted a good milk cow, I would care more about the integrity of the seller in stating the facts about the cow.
From the ad it looks like the seller is a dealer. Depending on the circumstances, buyer beware.