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>>Actually, what I meant was I was wondering why they were so small until you mentioned they were planted every foot in 8ft rows. That's way over crowded for a 25 year old tree. Are some areas this thick, and others 6x8?<<
Sorry, error somewhere. Pines are planted every 6 ft in 8 ft rows. Due perhaps to a prior harvest, or competition from oak, plum, and orange, some areas are considerably thinner than 6 x 8. >>You're goals are pretty much inline with mine. << One goal I forgot to mention is wildlife attraction. I have hawks, turkey, deer, and wild pig a plenty. Would like to encourage all but the latter and in addition have bird and butterfly friendly landscaping. >>As far as silvopasture patterns,... rows of trees alternating with alleys of pasture.<< That's what I've seen around the state and it has usually been rich looking grass and aesthetically pleasing as well. >> if I remember right, you want to thin to a canopy of 35-40%, << Which fits with the keep 2 rows, harvest 3 pattern. But I'll see what the forester has to say. >>One thing you will have to deal with is stumps. << I might let some rot but I've read that LL rots very slowly. I will have a loader/backhoe (looking at what appears to be a good deal tomorrow) and as time permits will dig the stumps out. The house site, orchard and garden take priority for hoe time. After considering several alternatives, the used construction type loader/hoe and a ~50HP tractor seem to be the best solution for all that we want to do. Considered dozer rental vs full service vs purchased loader/hoe and over the long haul it seems having my own equipment will be better because clearing trees, stumps, and trenching irrigation lines will not be a one time event. |
Silvopasture is definitely associated with improved wildlife attraction compared to either forrest or pasture alone. The original long leaf forest was a "savannah" patern due to frequent forrest fires, which cleared the brush and favored a grass and pine ecology. There are sometimes grant programs for re-establishing this, which you might want to check into.
I prefer the row/alley system, but block plantings look nice too. (I have a web site that shows some at ~ 125 - 175 TPA at home...I'll try to find you tonight.) This would be amenable to a selective thinning, preserving your best trees for future harvest, rather than only cutting/preserving entire rows, regardless of content. For our property, I'm going with the row system for the baby pines (in the back) because it's easy to convert (just mow down the trees you don't want), but thinning the existing older trees (up front) in a block pattern. I'll let you know which is better in about 15 years... ;) If you have the equipment and time, clearing is much less of an issue. Agmantoo said he has left stumps for a couple of years for the roots to rot, then pulled the residual stumps with a track loader. This reduces the disturbance to soil than doing it when they are cut fresh. This seems like a nice compromise to me. In time, I may be able to afford both a trackloader or back hoe and a tractor, but for now I'm just looking for a 50-75hp tractor. |
put in an offer today on a 98 JD 310 loader/hoe. Not sure if it is just buyer's remorse or what but I'm not sure I've gotten a good deal.
Have also started in with Florida's Stewardship program. Application is in process and will get me entry into grants for LL maintenance, e.g. last year they would have paid me $25 / ac for the mowing I did. That's not great income but it would have been a nice bit of income to offset diesel costs and tractor wear and tear. |
CesumPec,
I need to get a better idea of the scale of your drawing in order to make any suggestions. You mentioned that the northwestern square is about 40 acres. So I'm guessing that it is about 1300 feet across, and the western boarder of the property is about 2600 feet across. Is this about right? Second, I need to know where the pines you are thinning are located. Is it basically the eastern third and southern half of the property(everything but the north western corner) that is in pine? Also, what is the box you have drawn in front of the house area - is that the barn/horse paddocks? If you can answer those questions, I'll try to give some more specific suggestions. But meanwhile, There are two things that strike me at the moment. First, if my measurements are correct, your garden is a LONG way from the house (over 1500 ft). The second thing is concerning your orchard. You mentioned the prior owneres orchard died in frost... you have it located on a north facing slope. If you put it on a south facing slope it will be warmer... and that might protect it against frost more.. |
>>I need to get a better idea of the scale of your drawing in order to make any suggestions. You mentioned that the northwestern square is about 40 acres. So I'm guessing that it is about 1300 feet across, and the western boarder of the property is about 2600 feet across. Is this about right?<<
Correct >>Second, I need to know where the pines you are thinning are located. << Apologies for the kindergarten quality art (injured right hand and no skill with the left), but the longleaf to be thinned are the areas marked "LL". National Forest = NF, The green blobs are old growth mixes of pines and oaks and while the satellite imagery shows other areas of oaks, those other areas have non-merchantable sized trees within the next 25 years. The red line is a rough approximation of the property boundary, orange lines are electric. The electric on the SW corner is a long haul line and not available for my use. The electric in the center of the property ends near the well and future buildings. >>Also, what is the box you have drawn in front of the house area - is that the barn/horse paddocks?<< Yes. Unfortunately that means cutting quite a few trees, but after debating building sites for a year, that's the best solution we have been able to come up with. >>your garden is a LONG way from the house (over 1500 ft). << which is both a positive and negative. Because the soil is so poor and full of parasitic nematodes, garden areas have to be rotated each year. So after lots of reading, my plan is a 4 yr rotation of hogs, garden, cover crop, cover crop. So ease of getting to the garden is poor but distance between my and pig poo is good. >> The second thing is concerning your orchard. You mentioned the prior owneres orchard died in frost... you have it located on a north facing slope. If you put it on a south facing slope it will be warmer... and that might protect it against frost more..<< A fair point but that was in the early 80s and it was all orange. Since then UF has made great strides with new cold resistant citrus and low chill hour fruits such as apple, peach, apricot, plum, pear, cherry and a few others. As my aim is more towards the more traditionally northern fruits that need chill hours, the north slope works for me. I plan to try a few citrus in the orchard area and somewhere nearer the house, but nothing on a commercial scale. So a hard frost might be deprive me of a home grown, fresh squeezed breakfast beverage, but it won't hurt my income. http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/...CesumFarm3.jpg |
Ok, that helps a lot.
I'll try to put together something that may work for you tonight, and post it for you before I go to bed. Couple more questions... Do you know which way is the prevaling wind? Have you thought any more about if you want row and alley pattern silvopasture, or a block planting style? If you haven't seen pictures of the block pattern, here is a link to a powerpoint that shows both. http://smallfarms.ifas.ufl.edu/envir...lvopasture.pdf There's another one, but I can't find it. |
Wind? I've found sources that say primarily west to east but others that say northerly in winter and southerly in summer, and yet another that says winds are erratic due to the proximity of the gulf and ocean. My limited personal experience says erratic.
Aesthetically I prefer row/alley and I haven't found any source that says block is better. Thanks for the help. |
OK, here are some thoughts.
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...08898482_n.jpg I did three sections, drawn with east west rows. If you wanted to try block plantings, you could do that in one section, it's up to you. 1) I would have them cut the trees in east-west strips - 2 rows of trees followed by ~ 40 ft of pasture (unless you want to do block plantings instead). 2) I would put permanent fence around this whole section, and put a good electric wire inside it. On the east side, set it back however far from the house you want to keep the cows away. 3) I would make an access alley along the north side to move cows between sections, and put your road in it to get back there. 4) I would make another access alley going between each section, such that each section is not more than 700ft wide - About in thirds if my calculations are right (my drawing is a little off) I think 600ft would be better, as the cows will have to walk a short way down the access alley to get water, and you want to try and keep the total distance they walk for water under 800ft. 5) the water line should run down the access alleys that go between each section, and the watering points will be in these alleys too, ~ every 2-300 feet depending on how wide the sections are.. 6) Your temporary pastures are made by running a temporary electric tape accross the section, parrallel to the trees (most likely betwen the two rows of trees), and be wrapped around the permanent electric lines to charge them. 7) each row of trees should end ~10 to 15 ft before the edge of the section. This way if you want more than one strip of pasture in your temporary paddock, the cattle can get around the trees easily. Also, when moving the cows into the next section, you will just disconnect the tape at the end, and the cows can move past it in to the next portion you want them to graze. 8) you prop up the lines in the alley between sections the way Agmantoo does, to allow the cows access to water in the portion you are grazing, and drop it down to protect it. (agmantoo's posts discuss this) Couple of things we haven't talked about yet: 1) we haven't set aside a place to sort/load&unload/treat the animals. You might want set a side a 1/2 acre to do this somewhere. I'd say at the end of the east west road, just north of the last section would be a good place. 2) for your initial space/animal estimate, you will need to double the extension agents estimate, to ~8 acres per cow. There won't be as much pasture per acre in silvo pasture, because the trees limit production. Over time, this will probably improve as you manage the forage better, and your pastures improve, but don't short change your animals in the beginning. Better to end up with excess forage than not enough. Still, I'd say you have 50-60 acres or so to work with, I bet you can start off with 6-8 cows, and after the first year decide if you sell all the calves or keep one or two. 3) in a 600 ft wide section, each 40ft strip of pasture will be about 1/2 an acre (actually closer to 1/3, because the edges won't grow as much rass close to the trees) so that can help you estimate how many rows to give the cattle. If the section is about 1300 ft long (like the two on the western side) then you will have about 26 rows per section. If your cattle eate one row per day, then you could rotate through two sections before returning back to the start, giving you ~7 weeks rest between grazings. In the hotter months, they may have to go through the third, smaller section, to give you another 2 weeks or so before starting over. So, if your cows are needing more than a row per day, then you have too many cows. |
wow - extremely helpful, and just why I wanted another set of eyes looking at the problem. I was thinking more along the lines of the access road running besides the planned water line I had drawn. This gives me lots to think consider.
1. quarantine area - had been considering it on the south-eastern side where the 80 is. but then i have additional water piping problems so I'm going to rethink that one. 2. animals / acre - I'm with you on that. I had planned to start with a few bred cows and a few steers just to get my feet wet. I haven't taken care of cattle since I was a kid spending summers on my uncle's farm so I have lots to learn. And perennial peanut takes 3 years (maybe less with irrigation) to get a firm footing so no need to rush things anyway. After that I'll grow the herd as my skill and grass allow. Again, thank you. You provided much more than I expected. I wish I didn't have to wait for the loggers to get done so I could jump in on this right away. |
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Don't be terribly surprised if it takes longer than you think/want for the loggers to get started. Logging contracts are generally written such that they have a period of time to do the cutting (to allow for weather etc.) My contract states they have a whole year! They were supposed to start in March, but have still not started yet. On the bright side, I have found a nice tractor, and I'm going back to get the implements that came with it next Monday. Best of luck to you, and be sure to post photos of your progress! |
Hey All,
I recently became aware of silvopasture and am excitedly working my way through these posts and other, related material. I have 17 acres in south GA: 9 acres in 13 year-old slash pine (6' in-, 12' between-row spacing) and 8 acres in bay swamp. I'm considering converting the 9 acres to silvopasture and rotating sheep or goats on it. I have a few questions (not necessarily related to silvopasture) I'm hoping you may be able to address. I live about 45 minutes from the property and would only be able to realistically visit once a week. Is only once a week on site sufficient with animals on pasture and automatic watering? If not, how often would I need to be there? (The plan is to live there...one day.) The rows run diagonally from about 30 degrees NW. Is east-west running pasture critical to success? I don't have confidence in myself or the loggers to layout and follow respectively a complex cutting plan to produce east-west pasture. With 6x12 spacing, would I need to eliminate 2 or 3 rows for 36' or 48' wide pastures? What's the "magic" width ratio of pasture to trees? 36' of pasture to 12' of trees is 3:1 (75%/25%); 48' of pasture to 12' of trees is 4:1 (80%/20%). I haven't found anything in the literature regarding silvopasture and 6x12 spacing. Regarding the 6' in-row spacing, do I eliminate every other tree now or wait a few years? Regarding a tractor, what would be an optimum size to maintain (not develop) 9 acres? (I'll probably rent equipment or contract to develop.) With such a small scale operation, is the width of implements as important as it would be for a large scale operation? Thanks, Doug |
Hi Doug,
Welcome aboard! I will preface all that I tell you by saying that I am just learning too. I can tell you what I've read, and what I'm doing, but my experience is limited. 1) Regarding living 45 minutes from property and having animals on property. I wouldn't recommend it, but if you are going to do it, you need to invest heavily in you fences. You run a significant liability if they get out and get into your neighbors stuff, or worse, get on to the road. The other aspect is that silvopasture really requires Managed Grazing, which means pasture rotation every day or two. I am in a similar situation. I live ~ 30-40 minutes away from our place, and it will be ~5 years before I can afford to move out there. So what am I doing? I'm trying to get it ready for when I do arrive. It takes time to establish forage and put up fences etc, get a well put in etc. So I'm doing that. I don't think I will have my forages well enough established for animals for a year or two anyhow. 2) From what I have read, E-W rows is optimal, but not mandatory. That said, it isn't hard to shift the rows to east west. I think I posted on how I plan to do that earlier in this thread. If you do a select cut (marking the trees you want kept) you can make the rows go where ever you want. Speaking of trees - several questions. First, have you found a forester yet? If not, stop, do not pass go and go find one. You'll be happy you did. Second, how big are your trees? (what diameter at chest height, and roughly how tall?) And what kind of trees are they? 3) I don't know that there is a "magic" ratio. Most of what I have read talks about 40ft alleys (pasture) sepparated by 2 rows of trees, generally spaced 4'x8' to 5'x10'. 6'x12 isn't unreasonable. The spacing changes with time too. As the trees mature, you're going to need to thin them. Your forester will help you with determining when to thin. 4) As for a tractor, there are more knowledgeable people on the forum than I. However, I just bought a Massey Ferguson 245. Its a 45 Hp 1976 vintage tractor, that I got for under $5000, including the shop work to get it refurbished. (I could have probably used it as it was and saved even more... but I decided to put the $ into preventive maintenance). At this point, I would go this route again if I had it to do over. You can spend a LOT of money on a tractor. And it is definitely fun, cool etc., but in my opinion not necessary. As for size, I doubt you'll need/want more than 45-50hp for the amount of land you have. The bigger the tractor and the wider the implements, the faster you can get work done. But I decided my row spacing was only 10 ft (vs your 12ft) so I didn't want anything wider than 8ft, and ideally closer to 6ft. (6 ft only gives me 2 ft to spare on either side) But I don't really want smaller, because of the increased number of passes in the pasture portion. A 6 ft bush hog is going to take ~ 7 passes to mow a 40 ft wide alley. A 15 ft bat wing would only take 3...but wouldn't fit betwen my trees. Anyhow, that was my thinking. Best of luck to you. |
ArmyDoc,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Yes, after more research, I concluded once a week on site is insufficient. I have a lot of work to do (thinning, burning, developing pasture, fencing, water) before putting animals on the property. So, by the time the land is ready to support livestock, I hope to be living there. Time will tell. Regarding the trees, I have slash pine. A couple of years ago, they were 5.7" DBH. So, I assume they're a little over 6" now. Regarding a forester, I had a GFC forester out. She told me what I had and gave me a basic management plan: thin in 2013-2014; prescribe burn 1-2 years after thinning. Is that the forester you're talking about? She also recommended mowing between rows. Is there other information I need from a forester? Speaking of prescribed burning, do you know what the GFC charges? Thanks again for your input. I appreciate it very much. Best regards, Doug |
Doug, not sure what is available in your state, but if you are in Florida and get in the forest stewardship program, you can get paid $25/acre to mow once a year. The state will also subsidize precommercial thinning and several other necessary activities. It isn't anything that is going to make you profits but it will cover some of your costs.
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CesumPec,
The property is in southern GA, but just a few miles above the FL line. I wonder if FL would make an exception. ;^) Thanks for the info. Doug |
I just took a mob grazing course taught by Ian Mitchell-Innes and at one point we went to some woods which had been (partly) bale grazed. The bales had been unrolled for the cows and the difference was remarkable, no, tremendous!
Non grazed section: http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/p...dwoodlands.jpg Grazed section: http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/p...dwoodlands.jpg Cost: fuel to haul the bales to the woods. |
The GFC forester can provide a wealth of helpful information, but I was talking about a forester to help you with your contracts for cutting. I don't know enough about forestry at this point to try and draw up my own contracts. My forester got the bids for me, drew up the contracts, marked the trees and supervised the cutting. He does charge a fee for this (which varies by what is being cut).
I recommend talking with people in the area to see who is recommended. As with all professions, there are good ones an bad ones. One problem you may have is that the amount of land you have to thin is small, which may make it harder to get someone to come cut. My property was not given priority, as it was only ~40 acres. It has to be profitable for the cutter to move his machine out there and pay the workers to harvest. If you only have a dozen trees, you're going to be paying them (as you would in a subdivision) If you have a couple dozen truck loads, they are going to be paying you. A forester should be able to tell you where you fall in the spectrum. Your GFC forester may be able to advise you on who to hire too. |
ArmyDoc,
will do. Thank you ***** Gabriel, what is bale grazing? Thank you |
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Gabriel,
Interesting. Was grass seed put down first, or is the second picture the sole result of the cattle fertilizing the area? |
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