And thats sad to hear about the bucklings....they do that with Jersey bull calves too when the market's down....

Onthebit, Can I ask what that cow weighs? How tall she is? I don't know whether it's perspective, but from the photo, she looks quite large for a Dexter. Very pretty and large. Thanks!

Its not my cow....she weights @ 600 lbs and is under 40"

She belongs to Liz-I reposted the pic on her behalf....

i hope you mean 'large' as in a fat pig...OH ya her cows r fat and so r mine...I went to a sale yesterday that had 'designer' cows....they were skinny minnies like "Twiggy" Yuck!

Hi Lasergrl, the reason, I think, that you don't see many posts on bulldogs is that most breeders who want the chondro gene, know today that they can avoid the problem of bulldogs by not breeding chondro to chondro. I think Gene said the same things when he was talking about having Brenn, who is his herdsire, and a carrier, but his cows being all non-carriers. That is frankly the responsible thing to do in the case of the Dexter form of chondrodysplasia. I don't know where the stats saying a bulldog calf is usually aborted long before they are full term, because usually a bulldog calf that is carried, is delivered early about 7 months. It is hard on the dam, emotionally and physically, and she will have a much shorter lactation with less milk. This is according to B. Rutherford in her book, My Love Affaire with the Dexters. If you would like to see a picture of a bulldog calf, most of the Associations have one as a warning to breeders. I won't post one because it isn't pretty :( but you can go to the Canadian Association page http://www.dextercattle.ca/ or one of the two US ones and I am sure you will find one if you are interested. I think it is a very big deal. Liz

I am going to weigh in here and support Gene and his efforts to maintain the Dexter breed. We are attempting to do the same. We have a lot of our "pets" go to homes where people are just getting started with cattle, and they are intimidated by the larger animals. Gene was very articulate with his assessment of the breed. The carriers have, in my experience, been much more docile and less trouble to work with than our non carrier cows. We have had two bulldog calves, both at about 5 months, as a result of just not being able to keep our bull out of the pasture that had our one carrier cow. But we've also had a beautiful 2009 heifer born out of that same cow and bull. Unfortunately (we'll miss her a lot) we had to finally sell the cow to a nice family of 9 that is making great use of the 3 gallons/day of milk she is producing. This is our bull, a carrier, and you should see the calves he produces out of non carrier girls. By the way, he stands 39" and when we weighed him in June he was 1145 lbs.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Jdt6XRXzVX...0/P1010039.JPG

There are plenty of breeders who have plenty of non-carriers, please accept that there are some of us that wish to preserve the unique nature of the Dexter breed, and rather than using DNA to weed out the carrier animals, we use DNA and Chondro testing to intelligently breed so as to minimize or eliminate the occurrence of bulldog calves However, we also favor the look and temperament of the carrier animals. Even our non carrier calves seem to inherit a lot of the gentle nature of our bull.

WOOO!!! now to my eye, THAT's a BULL!!! What a beauty! Is he homo for polled?

Lakeport, IMO your post illustrates perfectly the problems inherent in keeping dwarf stock. It does not help much to test your cattle for dwarfism, then let the cow conceive to the bull three times, resulting in two bulldogs and one live calf. Yes, accidents do happen, but three times? If one animal had been non-dwarf, all the calves would have been viable.ck

If you read the post you should also see that we ultimately sold the cow. That carrier bull is not our only bull. We did have a non carrier bull that we bred to the carrier cow. We loved the cow very much, and enjoyed milking her, she was part of our family. Our young children would ride her around the farm. Unfortunately we had a hard time containing the carrier bull in his pasture with the other cows. She was our only carrier, so we had to make the tough decision to sell her to a nice family. It didn't work out twice...oh well...would you prefer we gave her a shot of Lute when we found out it happened? Now, if you put a high birthweight throwing bull with a small heifer or even a cow, or breed heifers too early, THAT is irresponsible as it jeopardizes the health of a mature cow.

The recent multiple time ADCA grand national champion Dexter bull "Wieringa's Ned" was the result of two carrier animals breeding. He is a non carrier. It has worked out well for them... Clearly some very nice bulls and heifers can result from the breeding of exceptional parents, though it is not something that you want to do on a frequent basis.

Lakeport: clearly, you feel that mating two dwarf animals is worth the risk or of little consequence ("Oh well"). If we are talking ethics and as you asked, yes, if faced with the choice, I do think a Lute shot given early to prevent implantation of an embryo, would be preferable to risking a bulldog calf. So much for using "DNA and chondro testing so as to minimize or eliminate the occurance of bulldog calves." ck.

Lakeportfarms, Those are some impressive lines on your bull.

Your point about Wieringa's Ned is a good point. People who never bred Dexters prior to the development of the chondro test don't realize that almost all the Dexters now living owe their existence at some point to a breeding between two carrier Dexters. It's just the way it was prior to 2005, I think it was, when the chondro test was made available for the first time.

Before anyone makes the claim that they only breed non-carriers, they should state that they had their animals DNA tested to make sure. Some of those supposed non-carriers aren't. I know, I bought 2 of them, then had them tested. They were carriers, but came from a renowned carrier-free herd and looked very much like a typical long-legged Dexter heifer.

Just think, your bull, as massive looking as he is, is only 6" taller than the world record smallest cow that started this thread! Remarkable.

Genebo
Paradise Farm

I really have to disagree with your comment above. before the test was made available people would try and measure the cannon bone. The test was also available before 2005, Dr. Beaver was doing it then.

I also have to strongly disagree on what others have said about carriers being more docile than non-carriers. Please, show me ANY statistics proving that. No talk just the facts. I have folks come and visit us all the time who can go out in my pasture and touch & pet my herd.

As far as them being beefier below is what I've copied off of the ADCA website:

"The degree of dwarfism expressed is not consistent. At this time, the cause for the variation is not known. Carriers of this gene appear to be much more heavily muscled, but this is because muscle that is designed to attach to a normal bone is actually compressed onto a shortened one, causing the muscle to bulge. Carriers often show a greater spring of rib or can be potbellied because the organs retain their normal size yet must fit within the reduced skeletal framework, or drop below it".

http://www.dextercattle.org/genCDChondroarticle.htm


Hope this will help clarify some of this discussion.

A proud breeder of tested or progeny of tested non-carrier chondro free Dexters.
All listed as such on the ADCA pedigree site.

Barb

I think Gene expressed it pretty well with his description of how the shorter legs results in an animal that does not possess the same athletic ability of the longer leg versions. We have and had had both, and from birth, the obvious (and later tested) carrier calves are OVERALL far easier to halter train, do not bolt from us after just a short time in close contact with them, and are generally more agreeable with being led and handled. In time our non carriers are very friendly as well, it just takes MORE time to get them there. Measuring this, as you know, is impossible, so I cannot provide "facts" to support it, we'll just have to agree to disagree about this.

From the pictures posted I'd also say the neck was shorter on these cows. Both the bull linked and the cow posted have short to almost no necks.

I stated earlier that I had nothing against the shorties and I don't. I'm glad we are free to breed or do with our animals what we want to do. My initial posts were merely asking questions. I for one think I'll stick to the long legged versions. Just exercising my freedom to do what I want to with my animals.

Mike

:hijacked::hijacked::hijacked:

The two of you admit they are 'tamer' because they are physically restrained by being carriers...I can't see how breeding cattle to a lifetime of physical anguish can be moral or humane!

anguish?

Stiffness and pain associated with dwarfism!

And add 5-8" if he wasn't a dwarf and what do you have? A huge Dexter!

Genebo I can find no reference to a Canadian 27" bull. Please quote your sources.

Barbara,

The link to the ADCA article you gave is for an article Carol Davidson wrote about the work that Julie Cavanagh did in Australia. It's her opinion of what the published report said. You can read the authors' summary of the report here:

http://www.dex-info.net/summchond.htm

The old tale about dwarves whose organs grew while their skeletons didn't came from observations of dwarves from other breed. That particular form is in Angus, but not Dexters. In Dexters, the body achieves a nearly normal length, width, circumference and depth while the legs don't grow as long. There are other minor affectations, such as the wider face and slightly shorter nose, but these have no effect on function.

I think if you'll re-read the original paper that Julie Cavanagh wrote you'll see that a lot has been added to the myths that are told about Dexter dwarfism that wasn't in the research.

Go back through your Dexters' ancestries and see if you can find even one that never had two dwarf Dexters paired as breeding partners: G,g,g,g,grandparents? That's what I mean when I say that they owe their very existence to the fact that someone once bred two dwarf Dexters together. If it had never happened, your Dexters (and mine) wouldn't be here.

Before the chondro DNA test was made available, you say that you and others measured the cannon bone to tell which ones were dwarves. I didn't measure, I just looked at them to tell which ones were short legged. But Julie Cavanagh wrote that the cannon bone measurement is only accurate 83% of the time! That means that no matter how hard you tried, you still probably misidentified 17% of them!

The DNA test for chondro has been a blessing. It gives us control of our breeding practices for the FIRST TIME. Those who want to know can do so for a small fee, at almost every lab in the US.

I do love the short legged Dexters, but choose to avoid bulldog calves as much as possible. Thank you, Julie Cavanagh, for the DNA test that lets me do that.

You old-liners who do not use it and depend upon the old methods for identifying which type your Dexter is will continue to get the same old spotty results that everybody used to.

The test does absolutely no harm to the Dexter. It only involves pulling a few hairs from the tail switch.

Genebo
Paradise Farm

http://dex-info.blogspot.com/2009/01...exter-not.html

"The local population soon realized that there were now some rules required in the breeding of these cattle. The basic one was to never breed a short-legged animal to another short-legged type. If you did, you apparently concentrated the dwarfism effect and the result was often a much-deformed calf that was born dead. Their solution was simply to make sure you always bred a short-leg to a long-leg – this way you were almost always safe – as of course you were when breeding long-legs together."

Uh Gene; don't know if you noticed but that is just a 'summary' of the article so I'm not certain, not having read the full article, but do know that Carol Davidson was involved and might have a perspective shown in the full article, not the summary. Worth checking out if you could post a link to the full article. Also you will find in the summary that the cannon bone length, measurements prior to the dna test, were about 83% correct and many breeders, including Beryl Rutherford used that as a way to discriminate between carrier and non-carrier. They did this in order to avoid the bull dog calf.

Liz,

Yes, I noticed it is a 'summary'. That's why I wrote, "You can read the authors' summary of the report here:" :)

The summary is available on-line, but I think you have to buy the full report in order to read it. I haven't paid, so I don't have a link.

In 2004, the ADCA Bulletin printed a longer version of the report, with more information and more charts. If you know any American Dexter Cattle Association members who still have their copies, maybe you could read theirs.

Unfortunately, 83% correct and 17% incorrect mean exactly the same thing. Any breeder, no matter who they are, that relies upon measuring the cannon bone to tell them whether their Dexter is a dwarf or not will be wrong about 1 time out of 6.

Using cannon bone measurement to determine it, I think the cow you posted a picture of would appear to be a dwarf. Did you have her DNA tested?

If you'll read Beryl Rutherford's own words about how she went about selecting against cows who bore bulldog calves to develop her herd, you'll find that her work preceded all modern knowledge of physical means to determine which ones are dwarfs. The very term, "carrier", wasn't even in popular use until after Julie Cavanagh's report was published. Ms. Rutherford's work was completed by then.

Does anyone know just what year it was that someone put 2 and 2 together to figure that in order to get a bulldog calf, you had to breed a short leg cow AND a short leg bull together. Or even which decade that took place in. I'm sure it was sometime after Ms. Rutherford started her herd, for her first attempts did not work out. She may have been the one to figure it out!

I don't know if you noticed, but in the Australian study, there was one non-carrier that was under 38" tall. That's only 5" taller than the World's Smallest Cow, who appears to be a carrier.

I don't know if you noticed, also, but by 2004, the Australians had bred their Dexters so large that many of those in the study, including some shortlegged ones, were larger than the ideal height of 44". I've heard a couple of Australians complain about how big the Dexters are over there.

Genebo
Paradise Farm

According to her book it was Beryl Rutherford, with the Woodmagic herd, that was the first to be able to breed out the chondro gene and guarantee her bulls, although small in stature, wouldn't produce a bulldog calf. It's a little difficult to find exactly the time lines though, whether the late 70's or early 80's. My cow's grandam was tested, homozygous normal, HN, her dam was sired by Trillium Cluny, a bull directly from the Woodmagic imports, also HN even though he stood 42" at 7yrs old! And Reannagh, was sired by Riverhill Saturn's Galaxy, also tested HN. Her full sister is even a bit smaller than her but we'll see how she matures. There are many very small, non-carrier cows and bulls in the states, I think that I heard between 38 - 40" average with some breeders. And yes you are right, given the height differentials shown by the Cavannaugh study for those cows, that were HN, homozygous normal and those that were HC, heterozygous for chondrodysplasia, that 38" non-carrier cow would have been the same height as the (supposed....but I think she is a carrier) 'smallest cow in the world' that started this thread :)

As a non-Dexter person, I'm wondering if the person you sold this cow to knows the problems they face in breeding her to a clean bull? Frankly, I find it appalling that someone would intentionally breed genetically damaged animals with the full knowledge they will pass on the problem genetics to their offspring.

But they're sooooo cute!! Here is some more cute dwarves and these ones (the bovines) are getting married.....SOOOOO CUTE!!!

http://www.thai-blogs.com/index.php/...e_vows?blog=24

:bouncy:

FEF,

Even a lot of Dexter people don't understand what you're asking. The person who bought the cow, and has a non-carrier bull, doesn't face any problems. It's impossible to have a bulldog calf from such a mating.

Genetics are a complicated subject. Even people who make their living in genetics don't agree on everything. There are factors such as dominance and recessiveness, sex linking, co-dominance, maternal DNA, and on and on. Dexter chondrodysplasia is unique to Dexters and is one of the simplest forms of inherited trait: It's dominant. If it doesn't show itself, it's not there. It can't hide for generations and pop up out of nowhere, like other breeds dwarfism can. It's not to be confused with the Hereford "Snorter" dwarfism, that was so hard to eliminate because they couldn't find it.

Also, a single copy of the gene doesn't harm the carrier. They live long lives and bring lots of happiness to their owners, who often like them better that they would larger cows. I'm particularly fond of the smaller dwarf bulls.

As a non-Dexter person, you couldn't be expected to know.

It's one of the drawbacks to owning dwarf cattle. We're constantly educating our buyers about the little cattle, so they can make the proper breeding choices. About half the people who buy from me end up deciding against owning dwarf cattle and instead buy a non-carrier calf.

A non-carrier Dexter calf is 100% free of any genetics that cause dwarfism. It doesn't matter whether it's parents had it or not. If they didn't get it, they're 'clean', as you put it.

The new owner of the cow will get some non-carrier, 'clean' calves and some dwarf calves. They will be able to elect whether to keep the calves, sell them, or put them in the freezer. Dexters do make the best beef, and steers are in short supply.

I just bought two steers from another Dexter breeder and I specified that I wanted dwarf steers, because I'm convinced they make the best beef, and I'm putting my money where my mouth is. Yum!

The only place in the entire world where you can get a dwarf Dexter steer to eat is from a dwarf Dexter. That, and fainting goat, and Tamworth pig and Muscovy duckling. Gourmet's delights.

Genebo
Paradise Farm

Well according to the people who sell Dexter beef in large quantities, the dwarves are not consistent in quality and are too fatty.

Anyways are you going to post your source about the 27" Canadian bull Gene or was that just a lie?

The cow was bred to our small non-carrier bull that throws small birthweight calves. We fully disclose all history to any purchasers of our cattle, including the information regarding breeding selection. Their plan was to A.I. in the future to avoid not only the potential for the bulldog gene, but also to be able to select a bull that throws small calves for calving ease.

Onthebit, I hope you just have a bit of a sarcastic wit and are joking with some of your comments posted here. If not, how about posting some photos and health history such as family risk of heart disease, cancer, etc. of your children, parents, or yourself for that matter, so others can comment about whether or not you or your family should have the opportunity or ability to pass on your genetics to future generations? You seem to have no problem making fun of others, such as your dwarf photo that you posted, so you should be able to take it.

Lakeport, Ethics again? I hope you are not anthropomorphising. First, asking me about Lutalyse shot instead of allowing your cow to implant a bulldog fetus. Humans with serious genetic diseases do make those decisions about themselves for the sake of future generations, (not just "risk of", which can usually be helped by lifestyle choices). It would be one thing if Dexter dwarfism was not lethal when homozygous, but unfortunately it is. Breeding two dwarf carriers is playing Russian roulette with your cattle and IMO unconscionable.ck

:censored:

Dairy cows have calves pulled at birth anyway, so it really shouldnt matter to the cow if its a live calf or dead calf. Sure dexters get to keep the calf usually but why the double standard saying its cruel for the cow to have to grieve its calf when majority in this country have them taken away anyways.
How is a dead calf any worse then slaughtering it for meat. I just dont really understand the perspective. Not taking sides as I wouldnt breed to chondros on purpose because i wouldnt want to waste time with a deformed calf, but from an ethics view its seems all the same to me.

Onthebit, I'm not a regular here, but to me you are coming off as bitter and angry and rude in this thread. You oughta check yourself.

You may as well give it up Gene. You are correct; if all carrier cattle had been eliminated there would most likely be no Dexters today, most certainly not in the form we and a lot of other folks like.

Some individuals here seem unable to tolerate another point of view or admit/realize that some good Dexters do come out of carriers and those good ones are necessary to maintain the genetic diversity of the breed.

If these folks had their way all carriers would be culled and an already limited gene pool would become a small gene puddle. Then those “do away with all of the shortys” proponents would begin shrilling about the evils of inbreeding.

Too bad they can't let others enjoy the type of cattle they prefer without having to endure them spewing their "we’re morally superior" vitriol" at those who don’t subscribe to their point of view.

I’ve engaged in this debate with Carol Davidson, the Fleharty’s and numerous others. No one is going to change any one else’s mind on the subject so this disagreement will go as long as there are Dexters. I’m not a newbie, I have been breeding Dexters for 20 years and I know what I like.

I am not going to be drawn into a protracted discussion of this already beaten to death argument; this is all I am going to say about this very contentious subject.

Sorry 65284 but this line of reasoning doesn't make sense, genetically speaking, because dwarf cattle producing non-dwarf offspring would have passed their genes on in the same way as two long-leg parents would. There would therefore be no reduction in the gene pool by selecting the non-dwarf offspring of a dwarf parent, except of course selecting out the obvious one - chondrodysplasia. There is no credible evidence that the chondrodysplasia gene is linked with others that would disappear if chondro was selected against.ck

cowkeeper,

I'm going to give you this one time, since you don't own any short legged Dexters aand have no way of knowing this for yourself.

The most obvious result of a Dexter being a dwarf is that it is shorter than a non-dwarf. Duh! This is an endearing trait to many of us. Make all the claims you want about how non-dwarf Dexters are short, too, but we have eyes. We have both kinds, so we know better.

Another endearing trait is that our shorties are more likeable, due to their gentler nature and lack of quick movements.

The by-product of this slower, gentler nature is tenderer meat and an owner that is less intimidated by the cow or bull. Talk about contented cows? How about contented owners?

If you have taken part in any studies that refute any of these claims, then by all means share the study with us. If you're just like the rest of us who have our own opinions, then that's fine, too. We all have a right to our opinions.

We are all capable of seeing, hearing, reading and forming an opinion, and most of us resent it when someone seeks to force upon us an opinion that doesn't agree with our own observations or fact-finding. We tend to resent and reject the person who does that.

The next time you feel the irrepressible urge to berate someone for their personal choices, think about the benefits of getting one of those sweet little contented cows for yourself. They have an amazing calming effect on people.

I'm going out and pet my little old shortie bull right now, and let the stress fly away.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...05Noelly12.jpg

Genebo
Paradise Farm

Genebo, My post was about retaining all the same GENES, minus chondro. Are you confusing me with another poster? Nowhere have I "berated" anyone for choosing to keep a dwarf animal.ck

I said I wasn't going to do this but maybe I wasn't clear, so I will try one more time.

If all of the Dexters that are carriers were eliminated, as some people advocate, there were no dwarf cattle to produce non-dwarf offspring. So, if probably half of the collective herd is removed there would certainly be less genetic diversity.

If there are 10 Dexter cows of differing bloodlines in a herd and 5 are disposed of the diversity of that herd is reduced.

I'm with Onthebit . . . the short-legged Dexters are so darn cute! They're the ones I fell in love with at the fair 20 years ago. If I'd been able to find a lovely little registered short-legged Dexter for sale with the bloodlines I want within a reasonable distance, I surely would have purchased her. The only carrier I could find was definitely NOT for sale, and even if she had been available, another family had already had dibs on her for at least a couple years.

In the end, I bought a nice, halter-trained, dark red (e/e), registered heifer that I believe is long-legged, whose mother is a family milk cow with a nice udder. My plan is to get her well trained to yoke and stanchion, and AI breed her to a fine, red, short-legged bull (2006 and 2007 ADCA Grand Champion Bull White-O-Morn Chief). When she freshens, I'll train her to milk. If her baby is a short-legged heifer, I'll raise her up and AI breed her to a tiny, long-legged bull, SGF LCIN Tighe. When she freshens, I'll sell my long-legged cow. At least that's my plan for now. :)

Gene, what a cute little bull! For fun, here's a picture of my new little cow!

http://www.glimmercroft.com/images/O...iferSmall4.jpg

What a pretty little Dexter. How old is she?

That cute little dwarf bull whose picture I posted was 10 years old in that picture.

Here's one a little younger.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...005Brenn12.jpg

What's not to love?

Genebo
Paradise Farm