I'm not so sure that the heat and humidity is any worse for black-hided cattle. If the pasture is managed correctly, cattle should be in the shade during the heat of the day, so seeing black cattle in ponds or in the shade during the middle of the day instead of grazing simply means that they finished grazing in the morning and are in the shade ruminating. When it starts to cool down in the afternoon, they will go back out and grazing again.

Plus, how do you explain the black hides of Cape buffalo in Africa? Wouldn't they have
lighter colored hides if a black hide caused them to overheat?

Agmatoo. You opened the can of worms but didn't lets us see inside. Would expand on that?

I too am ready to hear your reasoning on Pharoah cattle Agman.....

The post above was my 7,842 one on this site. You folks should have an opinion of me by now. Just take the contents of that post and what you know about me and come to your own conclusion.

Nobody really answered the "why black?" question, other than to say "because angus are black." Just spitballing here, but the popularity of angus came up along with the greater consolidation in the beef industry in the 80s, right? A consolidated, industrial buyer wants a uniform product to eliminate perceived variables along the production line, so it makes sense that a solid animal would be desirable. Black is black- brown or red could have a lot of different shades. White is white too, but I would think that black also shows the least manure and dirt at a glance, and so looks cleaner. Maybe black is also easier to judge muscling at a distance? Any of that ring true?

As I understand, when cattle didn't travel so far from the home pasture, breeds were developed to suit very specific environments. The comment about the heat seems to point out that the angus has been developed to suit a very different "natural" habitat- the feed lot.

Nope.
You're right in that it's simply because Angus are black.
And, for whatever reason, people most associate Angus with beef because of the extremely aggressive, and obviously successful, marketing of the Angus association.

People want Angus.
For the same reason my kids want a Happy Meal, actually. lol

Hmmm. Pretty interesting comment. I guess with Kit Pharo's program, you either drink the kool aid or not. But you can't diss his marketing abilities. Last time I watched his sale on RFD TV, his black bulls didn't have Angus EPDs. So I guess he's not selling Angus anymore, just black bulls? Or did I miss something? I did wonder though how anyone paying $7-10,000 for a bull could call themselves "low input" cattlemen?

I've never had any experience with him or his program. With any program, it's buyer beware. Take time to research before you start writing checks or changing the way you manage your cattle.

Actually, no. When the Continental breeds hit the US, they about destroyed the Angus, Hereford and Shorthorn breeds. Packers loved those big cattle. They got more pounds and less fat from one animal than from the smaller, fatter Angus, Herefords and Shorthorns. But they didn't produce high quality (marbled) beef. That's when the American Angus Assn started CAB. They believed that consumers would be willing to pay a premium for high quality beef. The big packers weren't the least bit interested in the CAB program. They were doing fine selling commodity beef. They even got the USDA to lower grading standards. But consumers weren't fooled. They knew the "higher" quality beef was not the same as they bought before and beef demand started dropping. It took a lot of years, but AAA was was proven right. And in those years, we identified the big Angus cattle and used them to increase frame score to compete with Continentals. Today if you want big Angus, you can get them. If you want the smaller ones, you can get them, too. The Angus Mature Height EPD is very helpful in that area.

The packers didn't care what color the animal was until the demand for "angus" took off. With so many of the branded beef programs requiring the meat be from a black animal, they have to pay attention.

No, muscling is easier to see in light colored cattle.

Angus cattle are doing well all across the US. Yes, they stand in the water. I would, too, if I was out in the heat. But in my area you'll also see red, spotted, tigerstriped, grey cows standing in the water. We used to have an Angus cow that took a bath every morning. Whether the temp was 100 or 60, when her calf was nursed, she headed for the pond. Her daughter did the same thing. If they don't graze enough to maintain condition and breed back, they need to be culled.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/ams....pe=&acct=lsstd

Best beef I have ever eaten was from Scottish Highland cattle. I consider myself a vegetarian, but I would eat Scotch Highland any day!!

Fair enough FEF, that was an interesting clarification.
Chamoisee, that's music to my ears, since I'm in Highlanders. But if I was in a position to expand my operation beyond my ability to direct market I would go with Angus. Like Agman says, there's no sense spitting into the wind.

Breeding stock in a cattle herd is a capital investment in the business that can be depreciated just like any other. A capital expenditure is not the same as an "input" in the business.

Inputs are feed, medication, fuel, etc. If you make a $10,000 investment that lowers the amount you have to "put in" each season to raise your calves, that investment has helped you to be more profitable in your herd. Every dollar not spent to raise a calf is a dollar added to the bottom line.

If that's the case, then why do we see, in the AAA website, that cattle can be registered as 15/16's or 7/8's Angus instead of having cattle registered as 100% Angus? IMHO, the reason Angus increased in frame score was because they incorporated some continental genes into the breed, bred the resulting F1's up to the point where their grand-"children" were straightbred Angus and could be registered as, well, Angus cattle. Angus were small before this whole AAA and CAB schebang got off the ground, and it's obvious that the AAA seen that in order to compete with the Continentals, they had to do something to make the Angus breed increase in frame size. Like I mentioned before, the only way they were going to do that was put Continental breeding into the Angus breed, even if it's just a smidgen of it.

Today, there are Angus cattle, yes, but a lot of them are not 100% Angus. Somewhere down in each and every bloodline there is a little bit of other breed thrown in. As has been beaten to the ground and repeated over and over again in this thread, BLACK cattle are getting premiums because of the simple fact that they are BLACK, not because they are PURE Angus.

That's right. The same as red Angus don't get the premium that black Angus do. black Solare (which I KNOW I'm spelling wrong! lol), black Limousin, etc.
All of them are riding on the same coat tails. And those are the coat tails of the Angus Association. In buyers' minds, black=beef, the same as black&white=milk.

There is nothing on the AAA website saying percentage cattle can be registered as Angus. You are simply wrong in making that claim. To register an Angus, both parents must be registered Angus, their parents had to be registered, etc. In theory every Angus registered with the American Angus Association can be traced back through the herd book to either Scotland or some of the thousands of Angus that have been imported into this country.

No, there doesn't HAVE to be another breed thrown in. Read your genetics. Frame size is one of the most heritable traits. If you're interested in making your cattle bigger, just breed the biggest bull to the biggest cow and the heifer from that breeding to another big bull. It doesn't take many generations to increase frame score. Of course, you may be harming other important traits as you focus on frame (or any one trait), but it was not necessary for Angus or Herefords to incorporate continentals into their bloodlines. As far as I know the American Hereford and the American Angus Associations are the only two major breed associations to REQUIRE an animal be 100% pure before registration. But they do both require it. If there are others, I'd be happy to learn of it.

Sure, black cattle often get a premium over other colors. But known Angus genetics regularly outsell generic "black" cattle. More and more people are enrolling their calves into the AngusSource program which requires they be sired by a registered Angus bull. Those animals sell for premiums, usually through special sales or off the farm.

http://www.angus.org/AngusSource/angussource.aspx

I believe red angus can be registered if the are percentage. Maybe Karin L has that confused with the blacks.

Since you asked, highlanders also have to be 100% to be registered.

No. But speaking of which, here in Canada, Angus covers both Reds and Blacks.

But you didn't say the Canadian Angus site had information showing % cattle were registerable. You said I simply pointed out that you are wrong; there's no such information on the AAA website. Why? Because the AAA doesn't register % cattle....yet. Because so many other breeds are making money off Angus genetics, there is talk of starting another registry to include MainTainers, Balancers, LimFlex, etc. They won't be registered as "Angus" though.

http://www.angus.org/

FEF, I see what you're saying (from what I read on here:http://www.angus.org/pub/brg_part2.pdf ). But I thought I read somewhere about breeders getting away with registering Angus cattle that were not pure Angus, but for the life of me I cannot remember.

But what about those other calves that are sired by Black Simmentals, Black Maine Anjous, Black Limousins, Black Gelbviehs, etc? Obviously these continentals have Angus genes in them (not other black breeds like Kerry, Galloway, etc.), and I'm sure that calves, as a result of having a black hide over them, even if they're not in the Angus Source program, would still ring the bell at the sale barn because they are BLACK. But that's what I meant when I said about Black cattle getting premiums because they were simply BLACK, not because they are PURE Angus. Angus Source or no, there's a heck of a lot of black cattle out there.

You posted a little quick on me here lol. I know I didn't say about Canadian Angus, we're talking about AMERICAN Angus here, not Canadian. And I know that there's no such thing, I just looked at the PDF file myself, and I admitted my mistake. But, read my previous post to see what I'm trying to get across.

The Canadian Angus Association is obviously a little different than the American, which means that Red Angus and Black Angus are deemed as one and the same. Black Angus bulls that are heterozygous Red are able to be registered as well. I have to look more on the CAA for registration details.

i love this thread ... ya'll got a head full of knowledge, thanks for sharing ...

Like the AAA, the CAA requires both sire and dam to be registered as purebreds.

http://www.cdnangus.ca/registry/regi...ewbreeders.pdf

There are always "stories" about how different breeds got different traits. Just because you read it doesn't make it true. The American Angus Association has always used the most current science to maintain the integrity of the breed. Obviously science/technology is better now than it was 100 years ago. A few years ago there was a story circulating on the internet that black Salers didn't have Angus in them. That back in the old country when the first son got married, dad gave him and his bride a black Saler heifer for a wedding present. And that's why there were a few black Salers.

There are lots of black cattle out there. And that makes me happy. But when you consider the demand here in the US, it's not a surprise. Here's the link again to the USDA certified branded beef programs. And that list doesn't even include the fast food "angus" burgers which probably requires the meat come from a black animal.


http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/ams....pe=&acct=lsstd

just thinking here ...

how much would it cost to get a few Angus head straight from Scotland .... hmmmm

That's interesting. I know that, in today's world, a DNA test has to be done to prove the parentage of a calf that is being registered to a breeder's association. It's mandatory for the CAA, and though I didn't look to see on the AAA, but I'm sure it's on there too. And DNA testing has only been around for the last, what, 50 years? A lot of things could've and probably did (or didn't) happen between the time when DNA testing was founded, like mess ups in herd books, illegal registrations, etc. But like you say, those could be all tall tales, as there's always tall tales being told in the cattle industry today.

But I find it kinda funny how, even though we're neighbors, the CAB initiative didn't take off in Canada like it did in the States. Here we have plenty of Black Angus cattle, not to mention other breeds chasing the black fad like in the states, but the "Angus-craze" just isn't happening as much up here. I see more red, yellow, orange, white, roan, and a few grey cattle hit the markets and get a little better price than the blacks. And even here, weight and health and traceability (thanks to the Canadian government's initiatives to make record keeping mandatory through the introduction of the CCIA (Canadian Cattle Identification Agency)) are a sight more important than hide colour. I guess the Canadian Cattlemen's Association seen through the CAB curtain of what CAB was REALLY about, and knowing that about 10% of Canadians were farm folk, that it wasn't really worth it to try to do the same thing.

I've looked at the sale fliers and catalogs of breeders selling Angus cattle, and I'll tell you one, thing, I can see why the CAB initiative won't take off here in Canada: those Angus sires are not near as good a quality as what the American Angus breeders have made them. Here we got better quality Simmentals, Shorthorns, Herefords and Gelbvieh cattle than those seedy-looking Canadian Angus, lol. Plus, we import a lot of our cattle down south; most of the Canadian beef you're going to get is not from the grocery stores, but from home-raised beef or farmer's markets.

Anyway, enough of my rambling.

I think it would be pretty expensive, what with shipping costs, not to mention the cost of paying for a registered animal and converting the Euro to US dollars, especially if you are bringing pure Scottish stock to America. Sex of the animal would differ in price too, perhaps.

I'd hate to know how much that would cost! :eek:

No, DNA testing is not required to register an animal with the American Angus Association. If a bull is going to be used via AI, he must be DNA tested. Or if a female is to be flushed, she must be DNA tested. Otherwise, there's no requirement for DNA testing.

Ah, yes that Canadian Cattlemen's Assn is a smart bunch of guys. But what do they have to do with CAB. CAB doesn't belong to any cattlemen's group. It belongs to the American Angus Assn. And there is a program called the Canadian Angus Beef Program (CABP). I don't have a clue about how successful it's been, but then neither obviously do you???

http://mypage.direct.ca/e/emrich/angus.htm

To each his own.

Probably a lot. But you can breed AI to Scottish Angus bulls. Several have been imported over the last few years.

hadn't thought of the imported AI. Wondering what red-tape, legal channels, hoops we would have to go thru to get it shipped direct ...

http://www.aberdeen-angus.co.uk/

Not many. GENEX has it available here in the US. Come up with $40 and you can order from them.

http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.p...=Angus&lang=EN


Dunlouise Jipsey Earl E161 - AAA #15726438
Dunlouise Cup Bearer H283 - AAA #16283322
Dunlouise Cortachy Boy D137 - AAA #14898814
Dunlouise Commander Bond F1276 - AAA #15726453

LOL that is the first time I've ever heard of an Alberta/Canadian initiative (AAA also stands for Alberta Angus Association, BTW) to market Angus beef. It must be a relatively new one that's popped up because for sure I've never heard of CABP before. And from the looks of the page, they're a small group, puny in comparison to ACAB (American Certified Angus Beef).

Naturally the CCA's got nothing to do with the American based CAB, like you said and which I realize. But of course they're less concerned with marketing Angus beef than they are with marketing Canadian Beef all across the globe, just like the NCBA and R-CALF are concerned with marketing their country's beef products.

With that said, it's no wonder the Angus initiative never got off the ground here in Canuckleville. We've got just as many reds (and some darned sight better Shorthorns than what you folks down there have) and browns as you do blacks. You can kinda see a small affect Angus has had on Canada by how many Angus bulls are being sold via Classifieds, versus the second-most-popular breed, Herefords and others like Simmental, Charolais and Limousin.

One thing about those blacks though, I must say, they sure slick off nice in the summer. :grin:

ROTFL! As I said: Angus bashers tend to be a bit squirrely. In your case, you obviously have let your bias overload you brain. Angus is likely the most influencial breed in Canada, since more than half the registered cattle in Canada are Angus.

I spent a few minutes on the CAA home page. They have an interesting feature called "Did You Know". It rolls over and tells me that: (1). over half of the registered cattle in Canada are Angus. I'd say your "Angus initiative" is alive and well in Canada. (2). 60% of those are black; 40% red. I expect that % will grow more and more to the blacks. (3). 9 of the 17 branded beef programs in Canada are Angus. (4). The CAA expects to register 60,000 Angus this year. How many will Shorthorns, Simmental, etc, register (link, please). (5). There are 157 special sales for Angus tagged feeder calves. How many for Shorthorns and Simmentals?

http://www.cdnangus.ca/main_page.htm

Ahh, I didn't see that on there! As for that, I also forgot to mention different areas of the country have different environments suitable for different breeds of cattle. In the Prairies part of Alberta, this is where you'd find most of you're Angus folks, there abouts around Calgary, Medicine Hat, and Red Deer, not to mention those parts in Saskatchewan and Manitoba. Where I live, which is north of those area, it seems the reds are a sight more popular than the blacks; Red Angus, Hereford, Simmental, Gelbvieh, Limousin, Charolais and the like. And it's all due to the environment and the forage quantity/quality up here versus down in the more arid regions, making it more suitable for raising continentals than British breeds. However, it also has to do with influence from others and personal preferences. Black Angus isn't popular up here because only maybe 30% or 40% of the cattlemen up here raise them. The rest is comprised of reds. But I'm not saying we're completely devoid of Black Angus, it's just a matter of popularity in this part of the province.

Now I digress from what I said from the stats you posted on here about Black Angus here in Canada; the proof is in the pudding, obviously. Yes, obviously the Canadian Angus initiative has gone off the ground, but it's not as popular as down in the states. Canadians are more concerned if the beef they eat is Canadian, not Angus, unlike most consumers are down in the USA. Despite the fact that a little over half of branded beef programs in Canada are Angus, I don't see, on the market, Angus beef being marketed and promoted in Canada like I do in the states. Unless you can give me a link to disprove that statement as well.

LOL I think the word "squirrely" is a bit of an over-statement. From the Canadian Oxford Dictionary:

squir-re-ly adjective 1 restless, fidgety, anxious. 2 eccentric, crazy.

That doesn't sound like me! :D

I think it's the Angus guys that get a little squirrely because they're all too eager to jump in any time someone bashes Angus for something or other and put up their defenses. ;) And no, I haven't let my bias "overload" my brain. I just don't care for Angus cattle, no matter what breeders like you try to tell me or what the markets are or any of that stuff. I'm not going to get suckered into this "Angus Initiative" thing; I'd rather stick with the less popular breeds like Hereford, Shorthorn or Speckle Park. All the Angus cattle I worked around were squirrely, never one was good enough to be docile enough for me to get less than a few feet near. As for the other breeds (except for limi's, chars, and some simmi's), no problemo. Any animal that was crossed with Angus was more well-behaved than their purebred counterparts. And those are my observations and experiences. So don't tell me that my bias is overloading my brain. I've got every reason to be as biased as I do, and that's that.

Karin L, your statements about "squirrely" cattle reminded me of the herdsmen in Africa and the middle east .... I wonder how they have faired all these millennia with their herds .. ;)

:hysterical: CTR, I think we'll leave that for another thread! Lets not get involved in the interesting parts of the Brahman or Bos indicus breed, yet, as there can be as much fun talking about these critters as the fun you'd get getting chased over a fence with a snot-slinging brammer intent on sending you into space. ;)

You are something else, aren't you? You post that % Angus can be registered. I'm defensive when I point out it's not true? You post the "CAB Initiative" (your term) hasn't got off the ground in Canada. I point out that over half the branded beef programs in Canada are Angus. And I'm defensive? You post that Angus aren't popular in CANADA (not your area...Canada). I point out that over half the registered cattle in Canada are Angus and I'm defensive? Time after time you post inaccurate statments. If not bias, why are you continually posting such inaccurate comments? Or are you just uninformed?

As they say "you have the right to your own opinion. You do NOT have the right to your own facts." Raise what you want. I will.

<sigh>....

I didn't say that you get defensive when wrong things are said about Angus cattle, I said that people like you are eager and all too ready to defend the breed against these wrong claims. Did I say I had something against that? If I did I don't remember it. Heck all the other breeders of different breeds have the right to this too, and I do not have qualms with that either.

I said I personally don't care for this Angus propaganda and CAB stuff based on my experiences and my opinions. And as for these "inaccurate statements" I said time and time again, I admit I was wrong, these are what I observed. These OBSERVATIONS obviously change when the right facts are given out, heck even I know that however "uninformed" I am. But EXPERIENCES and PERSONAL PREFERENCES are a bit different.

And really don't remember saying I wasn't biased. Heck I just read back to my post just now and I said "I've got every reason to be as biased as I do." Is that really saying that I am not biased? No. It says to me I don't give a darn how biased I am because this, over the years based on my EXPERIENCES, is what I prefer, not because I'm "uninformed."

Yeah, you raise what you want, and I'll raise what I want, I don't care. But I do care about this attitude you're giving me. And yeah, I actually DID learn some things from this thread. Like I said, I stated my OBSERVATIONS, not actual FACTS. Does that make me uninformed? Perhaps. But, observations are different from facts, and that doesn't make me less uninformed, just more observational.

And did I learn some things from this thread? Of course. I believe I pointed to that in how I said what I said. But apparently that slipped through the cracks for you.

Well, I'm done here. You have a nice day.

Why black?
A little simplistic I know but here in NZ (although the Angus Assoc. has done a great marketing job as well) the bias is not so much towards black as it is against red/brown. Anything red/brown is suspected of having jersey in it, and the so called experts insist jersey meat is useless.

"Expert", a noun formed by combining the prefix "ex", meaning "has been", with the word "spurt", meaning "a little drip under pressure".

That's interesting. I've always heard that Jersey meat is some of the best beef you can get. The problem with them in the commercial beef market here in the US is poor feed conversion and the lighter muscling than beef breeds.