CrashTestRanch

Only 51 percent of the hair coat has to be black. That gives you a lot of leeway.

that is good to know... does this also count at the sale barn?

CrashTestRanch

If you are selling feeder calves the 51% black hair needs to be on a high potential calf that will grade to meet the rest of the CAB requirements. I have read that only 8% of the animals processed meet all the requirements.

kinda like kobe reqs, 8% seems low

in 1917 the Association barred the registering of red and other colored animals in an effort to promote a solid black breed ... Red Angus Association of America. "History of Red Angus". redangus.org. Retrieved 2006-10-02

MARKETING, MARKETING, MARKETING ....

Are you really bored or do you like asking the same question over and over? People buy what they like and what sounds better some big fat holstein in a feed lot or a black angus on pasture?

Same questions? :confused:

Not really, just trying to wrap my head around why a premium is paid for a BLACK animal ... you can spin it anyway you want to, we could spin that holstein the way of the angus

I got a lot more info since my last posting, turns out it was all marketing propaganda that put angus on top ... pure and simple ... and that was gleaned from the histories of the red and black angus associations ... plus marketing campaigns of the food industry who is in bed with them ... great for those carrying angus cattle ... but thanks anyways ...

FYI, that fat holstein will taste just as good as that black angus on my BBQ grill ...

FWIW, we plan on running angus X murray grey ... so not really a bash angus thread, just questions ...

Well, Ty told you that in the second post! And Black? Probably because Aberdeen Angus are Black.

The Angus Association worldwide is probably the only cattle association that has ever pushed it's breed wholeheartedly and it's paid off. If you tell people the same thing often enough they will believe it and this is what has happened. People breed them, go out of their way to source Angus meat, restaurants make a point of selling Angus steak, even McDonalds sell Angusburghers, in other words people are being bombarded with it but they're not being bombarded with any other breed. The fact that most of them wouldn't know what breed of meat they were eating is immaterial, the AA has done it's job and done it well.

Cheers,
Ronnie

From what I have heard from University tests both in feedlot and in the processing end, Angus have a genetic trait for more intramuscular fat that gives the beef more flavor and palatability. I took a meat processing course at our University's Animal Sciences Meat Lab and saw for myself the difference in the raw product between Angus and Hereford. All of the slaughter animals were fed in the same feedlot for the duration of their growing life and the Angus out scored the Hereford in carcass traits and quality across the board. I wll admit that different bloodlines can have varying degrees of carcass quality. And in my case I saw that the naked eye can see a difference let alone the evidence in difference of eating quality of the prepared meat as we cooked and compared the steaks of the different breeds from several carcasses as part of the course.
The only part of the marketing program that I have to question is how in all of the retail stores and resturants can there be that many Angus cattle to supply the volume of meat and what is being done with all of the meat from the other colors of beef cattle?
My Grandfather raised Herefords all of his life and I questioned him on why he wouldn't include Angus? His reply was that Herefords can get fat on grass alone (this was back in the '30's through the '60's). He stuck by his opinion and never strayed from it, always pure Herefords on his farm.
As far as eating quality, if you have good genetics and the knowledge of how to feed and finish your beef, it all tastes good! I never had a bad piece of Hereford beef from my Grandpa's feedlot!
theporkstork

We have Longhorns, were breeding them pure. They are very hardy and great mothers, have instincts like Deer, ease of calving,small calves. Great meat for athletes that like a lean beef. Then we crossed with Herford. Now we have a Michigan state Angus bull, 3 farms use him, all of our herds have vastly improved. Here, one will always get more for a black animal, and people are unbelievably biased against Horns. Our Bull is very easy to work with, he's gentle, thank goodness his Genetics seem to be stronger than our Longhorns and half crossed Herefords. We'll stay with Angus.

And that's why Angus pretty well dominate the beef industry: they work for a lot of people.

We have black Angus. We also have a few baldies and have at the present 1 Charlois (sold the rest). Angus beef is a richer tasting beef than the others, and therefore demands a higher price. I personally feel Charlois throw a bigger, sturdier calf for their size when bred to an Angus bull, and we have never had ONE that didn't hit the ground running and was a weak or sickly at birth. The baldies are ok, but they are much higher in bone to meat ratio in our experience, as are Holstein bucket calves from the dairy. You can tell a purebred Angus bull across the pasture just by looking at him - he is big, beefy, has massive shoulders and a certain "look" and shape about him. You can obviously tell him from an Angus cross or your typical "mutt" cull steer. You can also tell a purebread Angus cow just by looking at her vs. a cross. They all might be black in color, but if you've around them for any length of time, you can tell just by looking at them.

I've also found that the red Angus raised around us are VERY hyper and skitzy - they will charge for NO REASON and cannot be trusted not to clear a panel with no provocation, and are almost hysterically possessive of their babies. 90% of our black Angus cows are so mellow that you can go up to them immediately after they give birth and give the calves their shots and tag them and the momma doesn't try to "take" you. I have a couple of baldies that are gonna go on the "big bus" after their next calving in Feb because they are also so unpredictable. Alot of us feel that it is easier and safer for us to have animals that are NOT unpredictable, and will pay more for them because of that.

My cousin raises polled Herefords and they taste fine, but in my personal opinion just do NOT taste as "rich" or delicious as an Angus. We have raised up Holstein bucket calves from the dairy and also Angus crosses to sell for "hamburger" cows and have always made a little money on them, and have eaten a few ourselves. I can tell the difference between the Angus beef and the "regular" beef just by cooking and tasting it. We use the "regular" beef in casseroles, chili, etc., but safe Angus roasts/chops/steaks for company and Sunday dinners.

Also, the difference between GOOD grass-fed beef and non-grass-fed beef is also very noticeable. Yes, what they eat CAN and DOES make a difference. It's no different than the few pigs we raise every year -- ours are fed on milk from our dairy cow, eggs from our hens, and a special ration made up for us and the taste is unbelieveable compared to store-bought pork, and even other home-grown pork where people just feed them pig feed and nothing else. I think the milk and eggs and vegetables we supplement them with makes all the difference in the taste of the finished product.

I guess what it comes down to is that Angus has made a reputation for itself over the years, and I honestly don't think it has anything to do with "marketing" or people being biased for or against a certain color animal. It has to do with who likes what to eat, what they are used to, and what people are willing to buy and consume. Often when people consume everyday so-so quality beef from the store or restaurants, and then taste Angus beef, they are hooked. It's kinda like the difference betwen eating a can of tuna fish vs. a piece of fine Alaskan salmon. It's all in the taste and what you like.

jmho

Farmerpat, I've heard the exact opposite with RA's and BA's. It's all about culling standards one has for the herd; anyone can cull out over-protective mothers and flighty cattle to get the same, mellow-type BA mothers that you mentioned. Most Angus steers we had bought and raised on our were more wild and flighty than the reds were.

CTR, I don't think this has been mentioned, but the other reason why BA's were chosen over other breeds was they're naturally polled (no dehorning necessary), have good milking ability, mothering ability, mothers being quite protective of their calves, calves that hit the ground were small yet grew like weeds, and fertility. But, you can find these same traits in different breeds like Speckle Park, Galloway, Welsh Blacks, Red Polls, etc. It's the fact that the AAA did their marketing the way they did (though the development of CAB) that made the Angus breed so darn popular, and, with the onset of CAB, enabled other breeds like Simmental, Gelbvieh, Salers and Maine Anjou, to easily follow the black hided market to gain a premium, even though the cattle that received the premium where not pure Angus.

I find that, with the black fad of raising Angus, that you can get some god-awful bulls along with the good ones, same with cows. There are a lot of Angus bulls out there that shouldn't even be bulls, imho. And you can also get bloodlines and individual cattle that are downright mean and nasty, unlike some other ones that are mellow. I've heard most ranchers say on another cattle site that Angus can be quite "fun" to handle even for veteran ranchers, and don't recommend the breed for those just getting in to raising cattle.

CrashTestRanch

We had an earlier conversation regarding the type of animal to raise. You are entering this enterprise for the income if I recall correctly. The debate of the breed will never end. Hobby farmers can raise whatever they want but those in the business for profit need to produce what the customer wants. For now, black is were its at! I learned a long time back that if I cannot influence a decision or occurrence to not frustrate myself. I have the same attitude about the weather. Concentrate on how you are going to produce what the customer wants profitably and go forward.

Ronney, I was just looking for trends in the industry and had to question the current breed. Data from the 60's to the 80's didn't even rank angus in the top 10, under university and scientific studies....then BOOM, angus was the "perfect" animal and all others were inferior... I question EVERYTHING, I'm new to cattle, suit, penny-loafers, still reeking of the cubicle new ...

yes, as you already know, this is for profit only agmantoo, which is why I have so many questions to the validity of data, wanted to weed out "opinion". I still have not wavered from the angus/murray grey X ... I do believe they will work for our area ...

Ok, why do people pay more for brown eggs than white? Mindset. They believe they are paying for better quality even if the chickens were raised together and fed the same thing. I see it every week at the farmers markets.

It's mindset. Market trends will change in the future as they have in the past but I don't see this trend changing in the near future. I raise black simmental for this reason, they bring just as much as the black angus and they give me additional loin typically.

The first response is still the most accurate one.

Friend of mine is a rancher's kid, currently living in Indianapolis. She said she has several friends who don't know beans about cattle (or even beef), but they all insist they will ONLY eat Angus beef because "it's the best."
Just like laurel just pointed out, it's mindset, pure and simple.

Shoot, even McDonald's currently has "Angus beef" on their menu!

That is due to years of aggressive marketing on the part of the Angus Association. They've served their members well! (And even better, they've served we NON-members pretty well, too. lol)

No.
If you're selling at the salebarn, you want uniformity in the ring because that's what feedlots are looking for. That means you want them all of one color, preferably black.

I'm glad you asked these questions because I was curious about it myself. I don't understand the way people think sometimes, but in order to make money we have to go with the flow. My husband and I have decided to raise Galloway cattle. We are going with the blacks because black is the color that sells. To us the Galloway are hardier and taste better. But they will sell better if they are black. Go figure!
Andi in OK

Andi, I ask a lot of questions ;)

We aren't gonna shoot ourselves in the foot over cattle choice and money. If black and angus is where the money is at then that is where I'll put our cash. It just seems silly and opinionated to me. But I want the cash $$$

andiplus8
Have you verified how the Galloway sell at the place where you will be marketing? They do not do that good at the sale barn I use. Some folks consider them pasture ornaments.

Does Red Angus command the same premium as black?

There are some Belted Galloway crosses bred to Angus near here, for sale at a discount. Not selling.

In short, no.

For what it's worth, I've wondered "why black" many times. However, in the past 20 or so years they've commanded the local market here and elsewhere as well.

It always amazes me to go out to the lease pasture and see my colored cattle grazing on a hot, muggy afternoon and see my black cows belly deep in the pond trying to survive the heat. I'm not sure how they can compete with ADG of other cattle when they don't tolerate the heat as well. (naturally because of the black hair)

I agree with Agman as stated earlier. If you're in the business to make money, you need to raise what the consumer wants.

Unless you're willing to spend millions marketing and researching stats to make them viable, stick with black.

There's no profit in niche markets for long.................as the emu, llama, and shetland pony raisers found out over a decade ago!

We've been researching niche marketing rather than sale barn marketing. I would rather have 4 good cows and sell to a few people that appreciate a good, but pricey meat. Our cows will be pasture fed only so we will have a small herd and either do direct customer marketing out of our farm or market to a restaurant or two. We are a good 2 to 3 yrs out from buying our first cow even. I am studying market trends, niche marketing, pastures and grasses, breeds, etc. We chose Galloway because of their characteristics. We chose black because people think a cow has to be black to taste good. lol.
The most important thing before we ever buy is learning about the grasses. We want to get moved in, take the first year to fence and cross fence, take the second yr to make sure we have good grasses, legumes, etc. Then the 3rd yr to buy our first cow/calf pair. (this is sectioned off in yrs so we don't break ourselves before we even get the cows!)
Slow and steady wins the race. Maybe by then the general cow buying public will have recognized the good things about the Galloways. :)
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread....

Not hijacked ...

We are doing the same exact things as you are. Bought property, working to get it cleaned up to run cattle. Same timeline as well. Clean-up and fencing hopefully done by next summer. Getting water, forage etc in by fall/spring the next. Then cattle, WOOOHOOO ...

you may want to read the Rotational Grazing sticky at the top of this forum, if you haven't already, GREAT info ... lots of great contributors too ...

We thought the Belties were cute, but cute doesn't sell here. :( I really LOVE the white Galloways. They are my favorites. They don't sell as well either. So we have to stick with Black.
Andi in OK

Oh great! Thank you! I will do that. I have so much to read right now I feel like I am swimming in words. lol

Black angus raisers deserve a premium, won't deal with those squirrely things any more.

Are the angus anymore squirrely than other breeds?

No, but I have noticed that Angus bashers seem to be pretty squirrely.

The Angus breed has an EPD for disposition. The higher the number, the better the disposition. Are there nutcases? Yep. But you'll find those in all breeds. Cull the nutcases and go on with your breeding program.

Thanks for the info FEF.

Is there a layman's guide to reading those EPD stats? I need something that explains those like you would to a child, I'm kinda slow ....

Sure. Here's a link to Angus EPDs. How to use EPDs is pretty similar across breeds, but the numbers mean different things in different breeds. For example, you wouldn't expect a calf sired by a Charolais with a BW EPD of 0 to weigh the same as a calf sired by an Angus bull with a BW EPD of 0. But you would use the Angus and Char BW EPD the same way. There's a crossreference table to compare EPDs of various breeds, too. I'll add that link.

http://www.angus.org/Nce/Definitions.aspx

http://www.ars.usda.gov/sp2UserFiles...PD2009News.pdf

For anyone interested in cattle breeding in general and grass-based genetics in particular, this is a guy you need to know:

http://www.pharocattle.com/

Sign up for his newsletter and his weekly updates. One of the most forward thinking cattlemen in the country today.

Yep.
Twenty years ago...

thanks for the links FEF & tyusclan

If there is an issue with pharocattle I doubt that you will like Kit Pharo's manner of resolving problems. At one time I was "high on him" and often gave recommendations. I do not think you have seen any posts from me supporting him within recent times. IMO he is not the man he presents himself to be. PS I have met him and he does a good job of promoting. Had he resolved a problem I am aware of, I would have bought from him. He is not the ethical person that he makes out himself to be.

This is one reason I got rid of my black cow recently. Just don't like seeing black cows in the heat, and we aren't as hot as elsewhere. I'm always amazed to see pictures of black cattle in the south with the heat and humidity. Apparently this summer, thousands of cattle died in feedlots from the heat. One factor I've seen discussed is the black hair. How many of us wear black outside in summer?

Feedlots are hard enough on cattle - why add more stress? I know, economics over animal welfare.

You'd think someone could market a lighter color or breed from the animal welfare perspective. These British Whites are my latest interest in coloring - white to reflect heat, but exposed skin black to avoid sunburn and cancer.


http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p...a/IMG_1045.jpg

DJ in WA, is that photoshopped?

Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of that.