Karen, I will tell you what *I* would do, if I was in your situation.

I would get this cow preg-checked, asap. Find out if she is bred back.
If she is, then I would dry her up. You need to know if she is bred.
I would not dry her up until I know she is pregnant.

While the vet is there, I would have her blood drawn and sent in for complete testing.
Make sure she is not this thin due to one of the ugly diseases that cattle can get.

Granted, this is free advice over the internet, so you get what you pay for. :)

In the meantime, I would continue to let the calf nurse once a day, and supplement the calf with bottles the other feeding. That is just me, and others will surely disagree.

Good luck with them both.

Thanks Gone-a-milkin

Agmantoo,

I really don't understand half of what you are saying.

You say I should have noticed she didn't have enough milk...Have you been reading my posts? My first posts said that more than once.

As for not following advise on tying her leg, you are correct, because I can't even figure out how to put the tie up on her head never mind complicating it by running it down her body.

As for not following my neighbors advise on feeding rations, I have no idea what you are talking about. I gave her two bottles and that was it, he said not to give her more and I didn't.

As for the water, I had that same bucket out in the pasture and they sucked it dry overnight. I brought it into the pen and filled it up and stuck my nose in it and didn't smell anything.

I may be in-experienced, but I don't think that I am irresponsible as you make me out to be. I expected to get a cow and calf that were bonded, not a cow that never met the calf till the morning she came and was not interested in her milking off of her.

Karen~ the leg tying. What he is telling you is that by tying her leg to the dog kennel, if she had freaked and decided to fight she would have pulled that dog kennel over onto herself, the calf, you if you were in there. She would not then stop and wait for help, she would freak out even more, thrash about until the cow, the calf, and anybody attempting to rescue the animals were maimed.

He is saying you have to look at a situation~ imagine the worst possible outcome....and then insure it can't happen. He told you to tie the cows leg TO THE COW....not to something she could pull over.

The bottle. You misunderstood your neighbor or your neighbor does not know as much as he would have you believe. 4 quarts at one feeding is too much for her. She may scour. 2 quarts would be an appropriate feeding for her IF she was used to getting that much. With her recent feeding issues probably a little less would be better and work up to 2 quarts a feeding~ 2 feedings a day. 4 quarts all together~ 2 in the morning, 2 at night.

Good luck
Get the cow to a vet or have the vet come out~ she looks bad
It says you are in Alabam~ is that for Alabama? If your near Cullman Alabama I can recommend a very good vet who will do farm calls for an additional fee.

Just got home, read Cheryl's third paragraph over and over. It's important...Topside

And thank Topside for the information~ he's the one who told me!

Really~ Listen to the people here. I bought 4 sickly calves in May 09~ they almost died. I was here everyday asking a million questions. These people~ all of them (agmantoo as well!) helped me save all 4 calves. Thanks everyone!

Thanks Cheryl,

My neighbor came by when I was feeding the second bottle and said not to feed anymore. I had mis-read the directions on the bag. There was something about 4 quarts on it and...

When she came, I had two halters for her. One didn't fit, and I asked the guy to put the other one on her, figuring he was a cow guy he should know how to put it on, but he couldn't figure it out. I took it back.

I picked her up another one today from the co-op that is a lot easier to figure out. I can't make one out of rope, can't remember all the twists and turns and what have you.

Thanks for translating

Cheryl did you get my bill yet??? If not keep looking...Your friend to the North...

LOL! Your ever down in this area you let me know and we'll BBQ! Couple more months and we'll BBQ Burger (one of the steers you helped me save)!

Your cow is in terrible shape! I don't know if you got her this way or if that is what is thought to be normal where you are or if she is old or if she is sick. I don't mean to sound awful but there is no reason for this to be put in any other way.
You seem to be trying or you would not be asking for help here.
Get some hay in frount of this cow 24 hours a day. Good quality hay. Then get a vet out there ASAP. To help you figure a proper grain ration.

Thanks CCCJerseys,

I just got her Wednesday, and that is the way she came.

There is one vet nearby that does house calls. I put a call into them, and so should hear from him tomorrow--was out today.

Hey Cheryl, I am in North Alabama too (Boaz)

I looked at craig's list for hay. someone is selling "good horse hay", now a new neighbor down the street (hasn't moved in yet) who raises horses, said horse hay is different than what everyone is growing here.

What kind of hay is good hay? If it is horse hay is that better quality than just regular hay?

CCCJerseys, if you refer to the previous thread, which GAM provided a link to, you'll see that there was some concern that the cow had been plumped up with water prior to purchase but I was also quite surprised when I saw how thin the little cow actually is.

Boaz~ Probably too far for my vet. Still you need a vet to see her. She is a sorry looking girl. Can I ask who you got her from? So that I never make the mistake of buying from them! Is it the guy in Addison who often runs ads? Hope not~ I've talked to him and he sounded like a nice guy.

Yes horse hay is better quality. Most of what you find around here is just grass hay. Thats what I grow in my field too. I feed it to my horses, all my animals....but it is not as high a quality as a field planted and maintained just to grow quality hay. My animals, including my horses, are already fat and sassy so going the winter with the mediocre quality hay my field produces is fine. Your cow needs better quality~ she is too far run down.

Gotta go~ people are here to help hold my heifers still and draw blood to see if they are pregnant! Hope they are!

Wow, good for you for trying and for seeking advice.

On HT, sometimes the most educated answers come in blunt terms. As somewhat of a novice myself, I prefer the directness as it helps me to avoid mistakes that could cause injury or loss to the animal and possible injury to a human.

I have had a family Jersey for 3 years and have "raised" 3 calves. I don't think I have ever seen a cow in that poor of condition. While it is already "spilled milk" (pun deliberate), it would have been best to post a pic of any cow you were considering purchasing. Nobody on this forum would have recommended that you bring that cow home unless it was purely considered a rescue. You may now spend any money saved by getting a cheaper cow on bills to make her well. :(

Also, as a beginner, it is concerning to me that you got a cow with horns. I know that's a controversial opinion but, when making such innocent and well-intended mistakes such as tying her to a mobile fence and accidentally doubling the calf's ration..... I suggest that you get some advice on handling a horned jersey. If she IS bred (God help her), her hormones will be raging when she delivers and she could really hurt you or someone else.

That calf is stinking cute, by the way. What kind is it?

Horse hay is usually from the fall cutting and should be nearly weed, stem and briar free...$2.00 a bale in my area....Topside

Asking the experts here... would she not do better on alfalfa, after a transition? I know alfalfa keeps my Jerseys in great condition.

On bottle feeding - now that she will take it, one thing you should know, calves will beg, butt, and suck on anything once they finish the bottle!! Don't let them fool you into giving more!

One 2 quart bottle in the morning, after she finishes it, put a small handful of calfmanna or sweet feed in her slimy, milky mouth :D. Hide the bottle, or she will want more!

Repeat in the evening (about 12 hours apart) And always fresh water and hay or grass available.

I usually do 2 or 3 bags of replacer and then wean.

The cow does look poor. Look up body scale conditions for cows, it will help to know what your shooting for.

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/...cts/00-109.htm

The cow came from a young guy in Trenton, GA. I saw the ad, and we placed a call. I was out with the chickens the next morning when he called and when I came in my husband said he bought me a cow.

I fed her the second bottle (and didn't let her quite finish it) She did beat me up pretty badly for that. it was less than 12 hours apart. I had somewhere to be. I saw some diarrhea, I think was right after that. She had moved to where the water bucket was and I could smell something, and saw it in the hay.

Agmantoo, said something now about scours, and now has me worried.

I don't have a problem with directness, it saves me from having to interpret.

I don 't know if I have seen alfalfa hay, I have seen fescue (maybe I have that one wrong--I think that is a lawn grass), or Bermuda, or what I just saw that was labeled horse hay. I know that the lady that will be moving down the street from me, was doing research for her horses and said she was having trouble finding a hay source. Her property comes with a hay field, but it is just grass

I am sorry that I worry so much, but its because its all new to me.

I went out on my night rounds. looked the whole floor for signs of diarrhea and didn't find any. she did pass some stinky gas while I was in there and tried very desperately to nurse off of me.

Okay, but your plee for help SHOULD be for your cow. I am not sure you are getting this. YOUR cow has NOTHING to give she is one step from deaths door and for what ever reason people are side stepping this.
Get the calf off of her and have her tested for disease and feed,feed,feed in the mean time.
Your calf is not your problem. Do you see this?? I am so very afraid you do not get this.
(sigh)

Fescue is poison to horses and cows. Alfalfa is what this cow needs (if) she isn't diseased. And Brome and green grass, or bermuda,or anything, is a start.
Oh my, I will give you some credit for trying but I would really feel better if you realized just what kinda shape she is in.
If your calf is taking the bottle at 2quarts 2x's a day get it off of this poor cow. You either have bought yourself an extreme case of neglect or a very diseased cow.

Here is my take on the animals
The cow is very thin obviously. She appears to me to be in fair health. Good feed and care and she will recover.
When the calf was not taking a bottle the only way for a novice to keep both animals was IMO for the calf to get what milk it could from the cow and to give the calf a chance each evening to take the bottle and at the same time give the calf and cow some bagged feed. The calf would have probably remained hungry but would have survived and the cow giving such a small amount of milk would not have succumbed with increased feed. My concern is the irregular eating by the calf and the overfeeding yesterday. The cow just looks bad but will recover. In two months with good feed you will not think you have the animal you started with. At this juncture I am still not satisfied the calf can be bottle fed by a newbie calf owner. Fescue has its problems but more cattle are raised/fed off fescue than any other single species of grass. I suggest that you limp along with what you are now doing but with improved hay and added grain. Remain alert to scours (the term for diarrhea in cattle) occurring in the calf. Early treatment is a must. If the manure indicates a problem developing then you need to get supplies on hand to treat.

Fair comment Agman but something has been niggling me about all of this and today the penny dropped.

I/We have been assuming that this cow is a reasonably fresh calver - but is she? She is also supposed to be in calf and I'm starting to wonder if she hasn't already reared one calf to weaning and is now in the process of drying off while being several months along in pregnancy? While this cow has obviously not been looked after, this would go some way to explaining her condition. Anybody got any thoughts on that scenario?

Karen, Agman is right. With good feed you won't recognise this cow in a couple of months. And what feed you give her will be what is at hand - I put sick cows on my lawn if needs must. Pug holes in the lawn are nothing in comparison to a dead cow:) Feed her what hay you can get, never mind that it is supposedly "horse" hay, what grass you have available and slowly introduce her to grain or meal. When you have the vet out, ask them to palpate her to find out if she is pregnant or not, and if she is, how far along. I'm beginning to think this is very important.

And good on you for dealing with some fairly blunt messages, mine not the least of them:)

Cheers,
Ronnie

I agree Ronney. We don't know enough about the cow. How long has she been milking? No cow in that condition can give much milk.

We all started somewhere. We've all made mistakes.

Look for the alfalfa hay - or alfalfa/grass mix. Horse hay is okay...it's just made for horses not for cows producing milk. If you can't find it - look for alfalfa cubes at the feed store. The ones here are bagged with pictures on horses on the front. I soak them in water for my milk cow and then feed them to her in her manger while I am milking her. Don't feed her very much at first, but do find something. I am not sure if alfalfa pellets would work or not.

Any hay should be leafy and green. It should smell sweet, not moldy, or full of tough stems. Any changes in diet should be made slowly - that's why not to give a hungry calf too much milk. Their digestive system can't handle it and they get scours. Calves will always think they need more milk. ALWAYS. Don't let them fool you.

If that were my cow/calf -I don't think I would even try to put the calf on the cow. Pull it and bottle feed it. I know you are inexperienced at it, but you can do it. The question would be if you could afford to bottle feed it or not. DO not buy the cheap milk replacer - you need 20% fat (or more). You can sell it if needed. It is a nice looking calf. If the cow is bred she needs her strength to develop a calf and she is WAY, WAY behind in that respect. Trying to get her to nurse a calf too might be too much on her. She needs help fast.

She also needs a LOT more water. Maybe you are filling her bucket more than 2x a day, but a milking cow needs around 40 GALLONS of water a day. If it's hot, she might need more.

Keep asking questions - and listen to the folks here. Some of them have been doing this for a long time and they have trained many of the rest of us.

BE SURE TO POST a picture of her in a couple of months!!!!! Then we can all ooh and ahhh over her (and your) progress!

Karen,
Please know that I realize that you bought your cow this way and that you are doing the best you can or know how to help her.
I am not blaming you for her condition. She may just be alot older than they told you.
Don't stop posting and don't stop trying.
We all have to start somewhere in all projects and learning about them.
You just happen to get a cow that desprately needs alot of TLC and time.
I am too abrubt most of the time. Sorry 'bout that.

Ronney stated "I/We have been assuming that this cow is a reasonably fresh calver"

This was not my assumption. Mine was that this cow was a milk source for numerous calves and that she had nearly been milked to death. She may be pregnant then again she could have failed to cycle due to poor body condition. She could be going dry to preserve her own life. My inputs were to try to save both animals and to take some load off a novice. Provided the calf doesn't scour everything should be OK regardless.

Ok, Thanks for everyone's input.

Calf is fine, poops are back to normal (that is wet, and not brainy balls like when she first came)

I have her on one bottle twice a day. Her activity level has increased and jumps and bucks. Once she decided that she would take the bottle, she has been very aggressive with it. I don't know how long it should take her to drink it, but she drinks it pretty fast. I do hold the bottle low like in the pictures someone posted.

I have been feeding the cow feed. I started with "sweet mix" which I got from Tractor Supply. They don't really cater dairy down here, as most cows are beef.

I ran out and decided to call the co-op which opens an hour earlier than Tractor Supply and they had Dairy feed. They called it the Calf Manna that I heard on here, but the bag doesn't say that. Just says Dairy feed.

She has access to all the grass hay she can eat. I have turned her loose in the pasture, so she is also getting fresh grass. There is a brook with plenty of water in it that the cows cross several times a day. She is out running around with the angus that live in the pasture.

her bag looked fuller than it ever has. She was in with the calf all night, but I know the calf got nothing of it.

I did milk her until she started kicking (not like she kicks the calf, mostly just stomping) my dog came by and agitated us both. I should have tied him up, I thought when he didn't follow me after I told him not to, I was good (the other one obeyed).

I won't milk her again.

I put a call into a vet that does house calls, but because I don't have a chute, he doesn't want to do it.

I will have to arrange to borrow a trailer (couple of neighbors have them) and take her to the vet. that shouldn't be a problem. Then I have to get a driver. (I have never driven towing anything.)

I will let you know how that goes.

Karen I'm real glad to hear that things are really looking up and everything is moving in a positive direction now. Good for you!!! Take care.:sing:

Great thread at the perfect time. I was going through the same thing at the same time so this thread was perfect. But now I have a question. How long should it take for the calf to take 2 quarts from the bottle? My concern is ours is getting it to fast, and want to make sure it won't cause any problems (we modified the nipple when trying to get the calf to take it so he could get a taste of the milk). Just wondering if I should replace the nipple with a slower one.

Thanks.

I'm not sure there is "too fast." ;) At least not in an older calf

By the time a bottle calf is a week old or so, I'm getting them on the bucket (not a tit-bucket, just a standard bucket).
Once they get the hang of it, they drain the bucket in about a minute.

Why did you stop milking this cow? Cows kick, there are restraints made for that. If you put the calf on her, she will produce milk. It will take time and work from you, but it can be done!!

I'm wondering why you bought her in the first place....you're not using her for milk (nurse-cow or milking yourself), and not sure if she's bred back. :shrug:

I stopped milking her because everyone was concerned about her health. She will not accept the calf she was given.

I did buy her for a milk cow, but don't want to jeopardize her safety for a gallon of milk.

Doctor came out. Couldn't get her on a trailer, she freaked out just seeing it coming. Another neighbor has a chute, so I walked her over there this morning. Doc just left.

He didn't do blood work, didn't think it was necessary. He said he couldn't get his arm up into her as far as he wanted, but said he could feel the ovaries, but nothing else, so she isn't pregnant.

The doctor felt that she was thin due to as he put it "lack of groceries" He felt in a month or so she should be fine.

He also said by looking at her teeth, she is about 6 or 7 years old.

Jay, the little cow is far too thin and it would be much harder to put weight on her if she's being milked and given her condition, she may very well have absorbed or slipped a calf is she was bred.

karen,
I think you are doing just fine. That cow will be up to snuff in no time! Kind of glad she isn't pregnant, that will make your job much easier. good luck- keep us posted with pictures of her progress!!!

Karen in Alabam

Your inputs from the vet did not drift far from my comments above. Here is something the vet may not have mentioned. Dairy cows probably suffer more from mineral deficiencies than beef cattle. Your cow has had pressure put on her to produce a lot milk. In addition to the feed being inadequate she is probably lacking in adequate vitamins and minerals. These shortages create low pregnancy rates, high levels of mastitis, and high bacteria cell counts in the milk. To avoid current and future health problems you need to make available a good supplement. I suggest that you locate a source from a feed processing plant that supplies supplement feed to dairies specific to your area. Get a supplement that is in loose form, not a cake or block, and make that available to the cow free choice. A 50 lb bag should costs less than $25. Such a supplement will help offset any deficiency that may exist currently and offset shortages in future feed. This will aid the animal in becoming pregnant and in the quality of her future milk.

Thanks Agmantoo.

I do have block licks out. one sulfer and one mineral with dde or something like that which is supposed to help with calving. We have been buying them for the other cows because we like them.

I think there is a local feed place, I know it is for Chicken feed, they may do other stuff as well, will check.

I have only lived in Alabama for 3 years now, so don't know the whole state, but the only dairies that I know about are over an hour away and there are only 2 of them. I could ask them what they use.

Is is ok if the beef cows get it? We have several beef cows on the property. Our neighbor recently got rid of the main bull and two non-productive cows to the sale barn. (the one had miscarriages the last two times). But there is one more that lost her last two calves after birth. I was getting the licks for them, but if the loose is better and they all can benefit from it, I will go that way all together and stop the blocks.

he was just getting plain salt blocks, but we have always given them the mineral and lately the one with the other stuff. Our pastures join and are open into each other. So they are almost like ours (one is).

Karen in Alabam

Mineral blocks and salt blocks are too limiting in there use as it takes excessive effort to access the contents. The cheap blocks sold by places like Tractor Supply have insufficient minerals in them and they are not formulated for your specific location. Beef cattle can consume that same supplements as the dairy. If I have a cow that loses her calf I ship her. There are no repeat opportunities. In the long sticky above regarding rotational grazing you may find some ideas/inputs that could be helpful.

I want to thank everyone for all their help.

I have an updated picture of Yo (the Jersey) and Charlie (the Charolais calf)

[IMG]http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab102/kgetchel/The%20Farm/yo-9-27.jpg[/IMG



http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/a...arlie-9-27.jpg

While Yo is not fat, I think she has gained weight. Many times when I go out to feed her she is waiting in the stall.