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  #41  
Old 07/14/10, 06:34 PM
 
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Location: SE Oklahoma
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If the cow is bred, an injection of Lute will cause her to abort.

As to the other advice posted;

#1 someone will go to jail.

#2 someone will wind up in court.

or both

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  #42  
Old 07/14/10, 06:34 PM
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My only comment is that you be prepared when/if she does come back into heat.

As wrong as it is, and whoever should be responsible, the same thing could likely happen again when/if she comes back in unless you can find a way to prevent it. Maybe you can coordinate wit him to have the bull in a secure area for the week she is due to come back in season??

We can discuss who is responsible, but in the end, you need to be sure your cow is safe, even if keping his bull penned is his responsibilty. Shooting the bull after the fact won't help your cow at the time.

Hugs!

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  #43  
Old 07/14/10, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randiliana View Post
You guys need to get with the real world. Stuff like this happens!! Your neighbor has as much right to run whatever bull he wants, as you do to run whatever bull (or cow) you want. If you have a cow come in heat, that bull is going to be interested. A 4 wire fence is really nothing to a bull when a cow is in heat on the other side of it. Electric should solve the problem, put it up now while your cow is not in heat so he gets used to the idea BEFORE you might need it again. Just remember, before you condemn the neighbor for having his bull get out, it could happen to you too. Cows and steers have been known to escape too! At least it sounds like you have a neighbor that cares a bit for what is going on.
That's what I was thinking actually.
I mean, I sympathize. Truly. We have two small, yearling heifers in our little pasture and right across the road are three of the neighbor's Hereford bulls, out with cows. I really don't want my girls bred this year because of their small size.
But at the same time, should the bulls decide to walk through the fences (which happens), it wouldn't be my neighbor's fault! They aren't dogs, afterall...

But this might be a perspective thing.
I'm a cattleman's wife, and this is ranch country.


So far as those suggesting shooting him, you'd better make sure to shoot to kill! I've seen a full grown bull, on the fight, take 5 shots from a .243 and kept coming before a couple of .30-06 shots dropped him. I would not mess around with a ton of wound-up hormones.
Again, this might be a perspective thing...
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  #44  
Old 07/14/10, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErinP View Post
That's what I was thinking actually.
I mean, I sympathize. Truly. We have two small, yearling heifers in our little pasture and right across the road are three of the neighbor's Hereford bulls, out with cows. I really don't want my girls bred this year because of their small size.
But at the same time, should the bulls decide to walk through the fences (which happens), it wouldn't be my neighbor's fault! They aren't dogs, afterall...

But this might be a perspective thing.
I'm a cattleman's wife, and this is ranch country.


So far as those suggesting shooting him, you'd better make sure to shoot to kill! I've seen a full grown bull, on the fight, take 5 shots from a .243 and kept coming before a couple of .30-06 shots dropped him. I would not mess around with a ton of wound-up hormones.
Again, this might be a perspective thing...
I don`t know why it is any differant than a neighbors dog, an animal is an animal, and you have got to keep them in where they belong, you are responsible for that animal. And as far as the bull goes he comes across my pasture one last time, deer slugs will do it, right in his tracks. >Thanks marc
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  #45  
Old 07/14/10, 06:58 PM
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Too many fat quarters...
 
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Originally Posted by springvalley View Post
I don`t know why it is any differant than a neighbors dog, an animal is an animal, and you have got to keep them in where they belong, you are responsible for that animal. And as far as the bull goes he comes across my pasture one last time, deer slugs will do it, right in his tracks. >Thanks marc
Any state I've ever lived, fence out or fence IN, btw, so long as the owner has made a genuine effort to contain his livestock, he would not be liable.
Ie, there's a difference between a known fence-crawler and a bull following hormones on the breeze.
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  #46  
Old 07/14/10, 07:02 PM
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This reminds me of a local lady who complained about cattle getting in her garden.

In the same conversation she complained about her dogs bringing home large bones from some other persons yard.

She said that it should be illegal to have something enticing her dogs to stray from home and that all bones and such should be burried after butchering.

I joked that it should be illegal for people to grow such tasty gardens that enticed cattle to stray from their pasture.

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  #47  
Old 07/14/10, 07:03 PM
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In Linn County, Oregon, the maximum fine for having an animal get through the fence is $6700 AND 15 months in jail. The animal doesn't have to do any damage to anything else, the owner doesn't get any notice, there isn't necessarily a second chance. The owner goes to court, makes his statements, and the judge decides what the fine and jail time will be. Here, if someone complains that the animal got out, the sherriff will appear at the owner's house.
If the bull's owner wasn't being cooperative, I would contact the sherriff. Just because the bull is back in his pen, it isn't too late to make the statement of what happened, and the sherriff may deter the bull's owner from ignoring the situation. I do know about this, from two 30 pound piglets scooting through a bad spot into the grumpy neighbor's scrub oak for a total of 20 minutes.
Good luck.
Kit

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  #48  
Old 07/14/10, 07:06 PM
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Erin, so would it also be true if your bull got out and I hit him on the road, you hold no resposability?>Marc

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  #49  
Old 07/14/10, 08:12 PM
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Exactly.

Unless he was a known fence-crawler, that is. Or fences were known to be in disrepair. Etc. There has to be neglect on the landowner's part.
(On the converse, you the driver would hold no fault either, though there are those who'd argue for that, too. )
Hormones do not count as neglect.

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Last edited by ErinP; 07/14/10 at 08:15 PM.
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  #50  
Old 07/14/10, 09:17 PM
 
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"As to Mary's advice. Why don't you tell her Mary as to what the chances are that the jersey will breed back after giving the injections. Hardly any vets will recommend them due to teh high percentage of the cattle will nto breed back due to the drug.
A jersey can have a elephant. The has been much decussion on here as to the calving ablity of a jersey. I personally had one cow have calves over the 100 mark."

Vets, dairy farmers, and cattle ranchers use Lutalyse all the time to synchronize heats, plan A.I. breedings, and yes, abort unwanted pregnancies. There is absolutely no such problem as a "high percentage not breeding back".
And while some Jerseys can birth large calves, many can't, especially wide bodied beef type calves. Charolais bulls are well known to increase calving difficulties when crossbred to smaller cattle.

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  #51  
Old 07/14/10, 09:21 PM
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Too many fat quarters...
 
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If Lutalyse is so problematic, what are people supposedly using instead in order to sync heat cycles to AI?

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  #52  
Old 07/14/10, 10:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErinP View Post
If Lutalyse is so problematic, what are people supposedly using instead in order to sync heat cycles to AI?
There are feed additives that will accomplish the same heat syncronization when used and fed according to directions.
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  #53  
Old 07/14/10, 11:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARYDVM View Post
Vets, dairy farmers, and cattle ranchers use Lutalyse all the time to synchronize heats, plan A.I. breedings, and yes, abort unwanted pregnancies. There is absolutely no such problem as a "high percentage not breeding back".
And while some Jerseys can birth large calves, many can't, especially wide bodied beef type calves. Charolais bulls are well known to increase calving difficulties when crossbred to smaller cattle.
Synchronize heats and AI ing. Yes it is used for that. But, when using it abort you run the risk of the ability to get them to breed back. In this case sooner the better would be best. that would lessen the chance of future problems.

Here in WI if you are running a bull on pasture you are the one that is liable for any and all damage done by said bull. We had a blackie come through a new 6 barb fence. He was after our old bull. We ended up with 6 cows sliced up from the wire when it broke and a really busted up old bull. The angus was moved to a differnt pasture 2 days later after he got back into our place again. 4 days after that he was bologna when got out from the other place. We are lucky now days, all the pastures aroung ours are cornfields now. Sure is less of a worry about cattle getting in with ours.
Some of the less drastic steps you can take about this is. Talk to the neighbor. A bull this size must be on teh end of his stay at that farm. If that fails talk with your township Chairman and local Sheriff office. May even go to the extent of filing a report on it too for future problems when they araise. It all depends on what your neighbor is like and also who's fence the bull got through.
Bob
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  #54  
Old 07/14/10, 11:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by springvalley View Post
Erin, so would it also be true if your bull got out and I hit him on the road, you hold no resposability?>Marc
Marc,
Up here that would be a big law suit in a hurry. If you had no insurance you would ---- near lose the farm over it. A good friend had there angus cattle get spoked on night by dogs. They broke through a gate out on to a majior highway. When it was all said and done a mini van hit a cow doing 60. Everyone walked away from it fine. But, he said the insurance company paid out alot of money on that case.
Bob
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  #55  
Old 07/14/10, 11:16 PM
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Problem bull

Cindy

I understand your concern and frustration. Don't have the knowledge to properly advise about you cow. Listen to your vet. Do know that Lutylase, properly administered, will abort her.

Regarding the neighbor bull: Follow the state law to the letter and be sure to keep a detailed log documenting everything you say to your neighbor and his response. Also document every penny you spend because of this incident. Receipts, time required, mileage, etc. Keep copies of everything you give/mail to him and everything he sends you. You may need to mail notice to him by certified mail with a return receipt. This is your proof that you mailed it and proof that he received it. Staple the 2 post office documents/stubs to a copy of the document you mailed and keep it in your file. It is imperative that you do exactly what the law requires in order to protect your rights.

Don't worry about your neighbors reaction. Either he is a good neighbor and will do whatever is right or he will be a not so good neighbor. Nothing you can do can change what he really is inside. However, by following the law, you will let him know that you will not lay down and roll over, but will stand for your legal rights. Just be polite, regardless of his response. Most likely, he will take care of business and do right. Its just like training an animal, child, spouse, etc, if you stand up and let him know what you expect, stand your ground and if necessary a "figurative" (legal)slap on the nose. Sounds like he is trying to be somewhat cooperative. When he is informed of the law and realizes what the possible penalties are, I suspect he will have an attitude adjustment. Very likely, if you handle this firmly, but polite he will become a better neighbor as a result.

FWIW-although it doesn't appear your are required by law, I strongly advise that you put a hot wire along the top of ALL of the common fence with ALL neighbors who have bulls. I suspect there may be many in your area who leave their bulls with the cows year-round. This is merely an ounce of prevention. If you keep that wire HOT, when the bull puts his head over the fence to push it down he will get a jolt that will turn him back. I have never seen a bull that did not respect a properly constructed, really hot fence after his first experience.

The key is the fence has to be really hot. Most all electric fence chargers are GROSSLY overrated by the manufacturers. Get one that is rated for at least 5 times the actual length of your fence. IMO-Regardless of the fence length any charger rated LESS than 25 miles is a waste of money. Had a lease place that came with a 5 mile charger. The owner didn't like e-fence because he only had about 3/4 mile of fence and it wouldn't hold his cows. Fence was well constructed but charger was too wimpy. 25 miler did the job. Make sure you use plenty of ground rods and ground it per the mfg. instructions. Don't skimp on the size of the charger as it is the heart of the system. If the hot wire is properly constructed and maintained, it will be the best piece of mind you can get for a reasonable cost. Another plus for having a single hot wire added to a barbed or net fence is it will keep the cattle from rubbing on the fence and will extend its life greatly.

Hope your cow is ok and best wishes for the future.

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  #56  
Old 07/14/10, 11:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Our Little Farm View Post
I disagree.

I would like you to explain this one.... A 2500 lb mature bull can be an easier calver than a 1000 lb yearling bull. So I don't see how the actual weight of the bull can be an indicator of calving ease.
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  #57  
Old 07/14/10, 11:39 PM
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I imagine the genetic traits of the bull remain the same over his breeding life regardless of his size.

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  #58  
Old 07/14/10, 11:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ErinP View Post
Any state I've ever lived, fence out or fence IN, btw, so long as the owner has made a genuine effort to contain his livestock, he would not be liable.
Ie, there's a difference between a known fence-crawler and a bull following hormones on the breeze.


Exactly! Now if the OP had said she was having problems with this bull on a daily basis things would be different. Bulls don't generally get to 2500lbs (or whatever he really weighs) if they are chronic fence crawlers.

The thing that needs to be understood, is that a farmer/rancher has the right to breed his cows for whenever HE wants to have calves the next spring. Just because I want to calve in March, and the neighbor wants to calve in April doesn't give him the right to tell me when I can have my bulls out. In this province, a legal fence is 3 wire, barbed wire and posts. As much as you want to compare cows to people, they are ANIMALS, and I've yet to see a bull rape a cow..... If she won't stand for him, he doesn't breed her, and unless you were there when the actual act happened, you don't really know what was going on, when a cow's in heat, she's in heat, and I can't say I've ever seen any that were particularly fussy when it came to mates. Not saying your cow did, but I have seen cows/heifers crawl fences and travel a couple miles to FIND a bull when they were in heat.

Regardless of the actual laws, you need to take responsibility for your own animals. If he has a legal fence up (and I would expect a 4 wire barbed is probably meeting or exceeding the law), and he did come get his bull when alerted to the problem, you may need to take steps to prevent a problem from happening again. Bite the bullet and put an electric wire up on the bull's side of the fence, or lock your cow up away from the bull whenever she is in heat.

Among most of us ranchers/farmers, who make a living raising Livestock, there isn't a lot of respect for acreage owners, this thread pretty much covers the reasons why......
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  #59  
Old 07/15/10, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by randiliana View Post
Among most of us ranchers/farmers, who make a living raising Livestock, there isn't a lot of respect for acreage owners, this thread pretty much covers the reasons why......
So the acreage owner is responsible for what happens on both sides of the fence?
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  #60  
Old 07/15/10, 12:42 AM
 
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At the risk of adding to an incredibly long list of really STUPID advise....

If you kill your neighbors bull you are inviting a world of problems. Next week it might be your cow on his side of the fence and you will be here crying that he shot your cow.

He sounds like a reasonable guy, deal with him as you would like to be dealt with. You may have a jersey bull some day and I'll guarantee that he doesn't want his beef cows bred to a jersey. It could be your bull on his side some day.

While I certainly wouldn't want a Jersey bred to a Charloais, the size of the bull does not determine calf size. That "2500" pound bull was once 800 pounds, and had the same genetics that he does now.

I'm certainly glad some of y'all aint my neighbors.

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