Everyone should keep in mind that we are only getting one side of the story.

Good point - seems I missed an important section earlier:

259.210 Cattle not to run at large
http://law.justia.com/kentucky/codes/259-00/210.html

_

I have to say, If a bull ends up on my land - there would only be one side to the story - he is on my land, you know? Period.

Obviously, her heifer didn't go through her fence over the bull on the other man's land - she isn't posting saying, "This guy's bull called my heifer over, she tore my fence down, he had to drive her back with a gun, and just who does this guy think he is?" Etc, etc.

It would be like asking whether we'd heard the theif's side who broke into your house and stole your TV. If the bull wasn't in her yard, she wouldn't be asking the questions here that she has.

There is no excuse for not keeping dangerous animals locked up. A 2,500lb is a dangerous animal. I know accidents happen and animals find ways out - but then when that occurs, we fix the situation, not tell the people we are not going to do anything about it.

This is more applicable in the OP's situation.
http://law.justia.com/kentucky/codes/259-00/160.html

I don't know your whole story either. Maybe the "thief" is really your ex , his name is in the lease, he has the keys, pays the rent, and it's his TV. We don't know because we only have your side of the story.

deineria, I don't know how you believe that the owner of the bull is not doing anything. I got the impression, he's on his own land and hasn't reoffended.

Because I have called him every single morning to make sure the bull is in his pen. He has argued and argued with me and hung up on me several times, saying he is going to turn him back out. I said no. He can leave him down at the bottom in the lot and bull pen. His cows can get bred down there. He only has 33 acres, mostly woods and a dozen cows. He is not a large herd type rancher. I have 12 acres up here, all pasture. He keeps saying he's been here since 1959 and all that. I don't care. I am living in fear up here. We have been here 15 years.

He does not have bull proof fences, period. And he has said this is all my fault, that is his side of the story. He has never said once he was sorry, or came to fix his side of the fence. He said he can't talk to someone who doesn't understand cows. Well, we are only 10 miles from town, pretty big town, and our road is very, very busy. It is one of the main roads out of town. He is putting everyone in danger by letting that over size 6 year old Char bull out in the pasture with 4 strands of barbed wire. His front fence is right next to the road. That bull is a very large dangerous animal. What is not to understand?

And he has had another huge bull, years ago, bust though our fence 4 or 5 times. A Simmental. Massive, massive thing. I came up on him suddenly on the back side of the barn we used to have down there. We did not do anything then. We should have. We had AI'd our Guernsey several times by then, and he kept coming up. I told him this time I am not putting up with it. If I see the bull out in my pasture I will call the state police. And protect my sweet milk cow, steer and ponies. Crap, what am I supposed to do? I did not mention it because this thread was about the shot, what shot, will it hurt her, what do I do, etc.

Do any of you big ranchers let your 2000 lb + bulls run in pasture next to a busy road? How many people each year get killed when they hit them? Can your fences really keep them in? We stop and help when cows are out around here, regular sized cows. Farmers who have bulls this size keep them in hot wire enclosures and bull pens. Period. I have never seen a bull this size out to pasture. A regular sized bull under 3 can get the job done. I am still having panic attacks. I have checked on my 2 cows every few minutes for days.

Erin, the barbed wire fence on the neighbor's side was tight, very very tight, still shiny, tall, hooked to cedar trees, and the bull walked through it like it was nothing. He wasn't even bleeding. The barbed wire was stretched to the breaking point, twice a long as it should be.

For the last time, Cindy, get the law enforcement involved in this, be it the Sheriff or the SPCA!! There's only so much you can do and only so much you can say to stop this guy's bull from breaking out again.

I have been reading this thread from the beginning and all the advice and the stories have been kinda muddled until the last couple pages. Initially I thought that 1) the char bull was just a bull that's following his hormones and 2) the neighbor's been keeping his bulls since then. Now that the facts are more clearer, it appears that you have had more problems with this neighbor of yours than initially thought.

Though I'm not one to be taking sides, and I wasn't going to give any advice until the facts were a bit more clearer (and a lot of the BS had been cleared up...thanks to Randi and Erin :-) ), but I can see now that it's not acreage owner's fault in this case. This guy is deliberately causing chaos for you, Cindy, than initially thought. Why indeed is he keeping a bull around that he knows does not respect any kind of fence or barn wall? Either he's really stupid and lazy, or a real schitzen disturber.

Cindy, if you cannot get a hot enough e-fence for your pastures, or cannot possibly contain your heifer behind a 8' tall bomb-proof concrete-walled barn or corral (which is pretty much what it'll take to protect your heifer from that bull), then call the police. That's what they're there for, to enforce the law when the state citizens can't themselves! File a law suit; make a case to get his bull impounded; whatever you can to make him stop for a heck of a lot longer than just for a few years. Letting yourself get in panic attacks all the time will get you nowheres quick.

Cindy, I agree with what Karin said to you. If this bull has no respect for fences, then something needs to be done about him. The owner should have done it long before now.

It is not at all uncommon for ranchers to run 5+ year old bulls, bulls are a big expense to buy, so we like to keep them for as long as we can. With the profit margins on calves right now we can't afford to be replacing bulls every year or two.

Right now we have 5 bulls, 2 of them are big mature bulls. A 6 year old Hereford and a 5 year old Black Angus, as well as 2 4 year old Angus bulls and one yearling. The big Hereford is running up in our pasture along our Trans-Canada highway, the main highway throughout Canada. I am not at all concerned about him getting out. The fence is a 4 wire barbed wire fence, with no hot-wire. I'm sure that the occasional bull gets hit along highways, but I can't remember the last time I ever heard about one. Cows, every now and then, and calves, but no bulls.

I have no intention of selling either one of these bulls right now, they both respect people and fences (as much as any bull ever does). Besides to replace one will cost us between $2000 and $3000, and I've got better things to do with that money than to replace a perfectly good bull. In about a week they will all be coming home from breeding, and they will spend the next 10 months hanging out with each other. And then we will start all over again, with the same bulls, unless one of them starts being a problem.

ALL land in Arizona is presumed to be "Open Range."

Arizona Open Range laws are "Fence Out", but you, the property owner, could still be liable for any damages to the cattle ranchers animals.

Landowners who are concerned with livestock damaging plants and other private property, have an obligation to fence their private land with a lawful fence to keep animals out. Having a lawful fence is necessary in any action to recover damages due to trespassing animals. (ARS 3-1427)

ARS 3-1428 states that if the livestock have broken through the “legal fence” you can collect damages.

You shoot any cattle here that ain't your own, you could be prosecuted under FELONY charges and face JAIL/FINES, even if it's on your property. It has happened quite a few times here, recently within the last several years.

Open range signs along Arizona's roads warn drivers of the presence of cattle, cattle owners do not have to fence in their livestock.

Auto accidents involving cattle could hold those involved responsible for reimbursing the rancher for damages to his livestock, depending on if it's a No-Fence District (or not) and several other factors.

We have 23 herd bulls, primarily Angus. Only about three or four of them in any given year are under the age of 4... (Why would people trade off perfectly good bulls? That seems like a HUGE waste of money...)

We don't currently have any land near pavement (keeping in mind, our county only has two paved roads through it, one North/South, the other East/West), but we do have them on county roads.

For whatever reason, when they get out, they get out into other pastures, not onto the road... And in this part of the world, yes, people run their cattle, bulls included, next to the highway. Perimeter fences are usually four-strand, sometimes five.
(I can't decide if that question was meant to be amusing or merely puzzling, actually. What would people do with their pastures that border highways if they didn't USE them??)


Now that we've determined that this bull is a known pest, what WE usually do with the neighbor that refuses to be a good one is pack his critter up in the trailer and haul him to the sale barn. ;)
S/he'll be brand-inspected there, identified as the neighbor's critter and he'll be notified to come get it.
He'll be charged the inspector's fee, as well as charged yardage. lol

In this part of the country that would be classified as rustling livestock.

Nope. Not if he's found on your own property.
That's the key. ;)
Besides, you're not trying to sell him. Only to get him back to his rightful owner. Of course, it's just unfortunate that there's going to be yard fees and inspection fees involved...

We live on one of the very few small parcels for several miles. We have 10 acres, with a sweet loving Jersey cow in the mix, and I would be SICK if she had experienced what your poor cow did :(
That said, when bulls get out in our neck of the woods, and they do from time to time as that's what bulls seem intent on doing sometimes, it is customary to contact the bull's owner, which you have done.
In the case of a repeat offender, the bull's owner usually gets so dang tired of running to fetch him (not to mention tired of having to deal with the neighbors being t'd off about his roving bull) that he carts him off to the sale barn himself. Don't know off anyone who has shot his own bull when he could simply sell him to the packers.
This bull seems to be particularly dangerous, since he appears to have absolutely no respect for fences.
Why your neighbor wants such an animal is beyond me.
Contact any and all other cattle ranching neighbors nearby to see what they have done when faced with similar situations.
I understand that you don't want to cause a hostile relationship with the neighbors, but unfortunately your neighbor has done just that by handling his livestock this way.
You have my sympathy.

There are some interesting, and in some cases, I think, rather self serving opinions expressed here. There seems to be a, "you only have a few acres and run a few head so you don't understand attitude. An, I'm a big operator, a real rancher and I'll do as I darn well please" mentality that isn’t conducive to keeping peace with the neighbors.

Yes, a cattleman has a right to run his bulls when and wherever he chooses ON HIS OWN LAND. An adjoining owner has an equal right to run their animals and use their property however they need or want to without fear of harm to themselves, family, animals, or their property, by a trespassing bull.

I don't buy the nonsense that people should have to either spend money on extra fencing, keep their animals locked up, or put up with a neighbor’s destructive, roaming bull because "bulls will be bulls".

The OP apparently has fencing adequate to keep her livestock confined to her property; the bull owner should take whatever steps are necessary to do the same, at his expense. No one should have to bear the labor and cost of building a super fence to ensure a neighbor’s bull stays at home.

No doubt cows, calves and steers all get out, but seldom cause much damage or pose any danger to others. Some here seem to forget or ignore the difference between an animal that finds a weak spot in a fence or open gate and "gets out" and a bull that deliberately destroys a fence and wreaks havoc on another's property, cows and especially heifers.

I suspect these same folks would yell bloody murder if an uninvited hunter trespassed or a neighbor’s kid wrecked one of their fences and rode around on an ATV tearing up pasture, frightening and possibly injuring their stock.

Ya think a "well he is young and impetuous and just being a boy and couldn't help himself" excuse would fly, especially if the fence wasn't repaired? What are the chances they would accept being told, you must build a better fence to keep them out? Chances are slim to none they would go for that.

And yes, I do understand about randy bulls, I have 2 and 5 year old Jersey bulls here, nuff said. I spent the money to build high, tight, and very hot fences that have 4 barb wire used as the ground wires, and they stay in.

I check the cattle and fences every day, if/when they get out I will do whatever is necessary to keep them in. I won’t alibi or try to shift responsibility to my neighbors for keeping my stock on my place.

Love the post, 65284!

Yes, great idea. You're hardly stealing something left on your property.

Are the lyrics to Oklahoma's "The Farmer and the Cowman Should be Friends." running through anyone else's mind?

Hey Ken or Chuck, how 'bout lockin' this thread down before we have a range war.......

Thank you 65284. You said that very well.

Well, even if people here disagreed about fences and neighboring bulls, it is still a good thread for people looking for a new homestead. Most of us want a family milk cow and some steers. I guess it is more important about who is adjoining the property than the property itself. If they run super large bulls you don't have a chance, no matter the fences.

Actually, the farm we are both sitting on wasn't split up until the mid 80's. And he only put his house down there 2 or 3 years ago. He lived a few miles away but had cows and a barn here. He has not been here since 1959, blah blah blah.

Perhaps if one is incapable of comprehending what they've read, they MIGHT be getting this out of what some of us have said. :rolleyes:
Or, for those who ARE capable of comprehension, they're getting what is being said-- that livestock is unpredictable and one can only do their best to mitigate that unpredictability. And the more one has, the more unpredictable they become.
(Or perhaps this is merely an example of martyr-complex, in which case, who am I to interfere with would-be martyrs? lol)

It has also been said, BY EVERYONE IN THE THREAD (again, this goes back to being able to understand what is being written), that a known fence-crawler needs to have something done.
He has moved to the predictable and must be dealt with accordingly.

(Though the OP didn't share that vital piece of information until three pages of opinions had weighed in, so I can maybe see why people are missing the last page worth of posts).





I think what is MORE interesting is how many people, without knowing that this bull is a known menace, were willing to hang the neighbor.

And how few of us were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. :(

The differences in opinion expressed seem to be drawn along open range/closed range, or fence out/fence in and I think that is to be expected. Back East people expect bulls to be contained and the laws reflect that. In open range people expect bulls to roam once in a while and their laws reflect that. The animals are not different, the expectations and regulations are and I do not think it is fair to say people in fence in states do not understand the nature of the animal - we do but the law is the law and while it may not be my fault if/when my bull escapes, it is my responsibility to make sure he doesn't do it again and to pay restitution to anyone harmed by the escape.

The neighbour of the OP appears to have a fence out mentality in a fence in state and that doesn't work very well for anyone.

From what I've gathered from this discussion, the bull in question has a rep of not respecting fences. The cow in question probably pranced along the fence and got more than she bargained for (probably not rape lol) . I see two things wrong, the bull probably should have been put on wheels and marketed long ago, and the cows owner, knowing the bull was a problem, probably should have kept her cow farther from the fence till out of heat.
As far as the size of the bull, as randilana and others stated, you don't get rid of a expensive bull because he growed up. As long as he isn't a problem, no reason to.
We routinely kept our herford, angus, and gelbvieh bulls till 5 or 6 years old and often they weighed well over 2000 lbs. And, you don't "put down" a $5000 bull. You take him to a cattle auction and at least get hamburger price out of him. The bull is responsible for 50% of your calves, if he is a good one you keep him as long as possible.
There is a vast difference in the mind-set of people in cattle country vs those in semi-urban, or dairy country. I don't think those with a few cows and one bull realize the logistics or problems of the rancher with hundreds of cows and dozens of bulls, in pastures of thousands of acres. They never will understand the difference.

There , I've had my say for my 2 cents worth.

:bow::bow:

I was more blunt then I should have been. Yes the neighbor should keep his bull in but if you run open cows or heifers next to a pasture with a bull in it, you have to live with the consequences.

Just for the record the biggest bull I ever saw a little over 3000 lbs. when he crossed the scales, and that was in his working clothes.

Boy I guesss it may open up a hornets nest, ain`t it interesting how differant parts of the country some things are ok to do and other parts of the country they aren`t. I guess this is another one for the books. But I will say this is happening in the midwest, and thats all that matters right now. >Thanks Marc

I know it's hard to read 4 pages, but the bull was supposed to be at the bottom lot, where he always is. And this massive fence crasher is not the same massive fence crasher as the one a few years ago. Thing is, he knew I had a Jersey cow up here, and a steer. He has a bad record for turning his massive bulls out to pasture where they should not be. They can go anywhere they want and there is farms and traffic. And I can not see them out, it is all woods. I can not see them unless they are right up against my fence in the woods.

Yeah, it is interesting. Very interesting.

She made is clear from the start that the guy didn't fix her fence and said he wasn't going to keep the bull locked up, so as far as I can see hanging the neighbor seems far. The fact the bull is a known fence plower add to the reasons, yes, but the fact he drove the bull back with a gun, she had to fix her own fence, he didn't offer to right off to pay for the expenses the OP will incure if the cow ends up needing aborted or agree to keep the bull up is enough - which was all pretty plain on the first page.

Also, it was plain we are talking about Kentucky . . . not out in ranch country. . .and that changes things a great deal. Louisville is a fair sized city - and the OP is only 50 miles from there. . .so this hardly sounds like the sticks or the middle of nowhere, where someone can let cattle free range.

Cindy in KY, I don't understand what you mean by him putting bulls in pastures they shouldn't be in. Are they on someone else's land or are there certain regulations that would prevent him from pasturing specific animals or a certain number of animals or some other reason? Are his bulls often found in traffic and on other farms? If so, I would think the problem would have been resolved before now by simply calling the police or animal control if they are on public roads and if his bulls are consistently roaming, I would think the law would expect him to make some changes.

If you're simply uncomfortable sharing a fenceline with this man, perhaps you could make an offer to purchase that particular piece of land.

We don't know if that was just because she beat him to it, though.

No, she told us that he wouldn't keep him in the pen that she wanted him kept in. Not that he wouldn't do his best to keep him home.
She ALSO told us that this neighbor offered to keep her heifer for her, in his bull-proof pen, so that she would for sure be OK. (Which to me, makes a whole lot more sense than keeping a bull penned up during breeding season! To me, it sounds like he was trying to be neighborly...)

And that's what we had to go on.

:confused:
This has nothing to do with "free range" (why does that keep entering this conversation, anyway?) This is plain and simply understanding the nature of livestock when it's time to breed! I don't care if they live near Louisville, Jersey City, or Mobridge, SD. Bulls are bulls and they'll go check out heifers in heat! lol

And there IS a difference between folks who actually make their living from their livestock and folks who just own a few head for their own use. Again, geography is irrelevant.

ErinP,

Can you help me on this part of you statement? I'm new to all this stuff and it would help me to know how to treat those who make a living from their livestock.

ErinP, I have farmed all my life, and ran stock cows on pasture all summer, with bulls with them. I would never expect some one keep their cow locked up when in heat. I never had a bull go roaming to look see what was in the neighborhood. If I had a bull that was as rank as this bull appears to be, he would be bound for Oscar Mayer. I have a Jersey bull running with my jersey cows and is held in with one strand of the rope wire fence and this keeps him in. I think on the most part this is a hard headed cow man not gona have no neighbor lady tell him what to do.>Thanks Marc

what you mean by him putting bulls in pastures they shouldn't be in.

His fences are not good enough to contain the bull. His big bull can walk right over or through them. His bull was supposed to be down at the bottom. He has a solid pen behind his barn for the bull and about 1 acre and a pond down there the bull is usually in. He turned him out to wander up the hill.

Anyway, we just got back from down there. He has taken the BEAST and all his 12 cows and hid them somewhere and he said over and over he doesn't know where the Bull is. He ran off, could be anywhere. Whatever.

And whoever asked, I fixed my side of the fence, but he has yet to come back up and put up his barbed wire on his side. He could have drove the bull down the hill, put the Bull in his pen and been back up there in 30 minutes. Never showed all day, or the next, or the next. It happened in the morning. And it was raining when I had to put the fence back up. The bull busted cedar posts clean over to the ground.

hey Cindy in KY, maybe you could help fix the fence on his side?! How much is tore up?

I believe it's breeding season for him and that's why he still wants his bull with the cows instead of in the bull pen. A cattleman can't expect to get his cows bred by keeping his "monster bull" in the bull pen 365 days of the year. And using 1 piddly little acre corral to house 12 cows and one bull for a breeding season of, say, 3 months is just not common sense at this time of year.

I am wondering how many of you free range beef cattlemen would like it if the neighbor's Jersey bull kept getting in and breeding your cows. The Jersey bull would only be doing what was natural. I guess it would be your responsibility to fence him out. This thread started out with a question about a shot to abort a too-large calf and escalated into something else. I don't know all the facts either, but it sure would make me furious for a neighbor to keep a fence crashing Charolais bull right next to my little Dexter or Jersey, unless the bull was kept in a bull-proof fence. When a bull starts roaming it is time for him to go. He is not only dangerous to small cows but to humans as well. We had a nice Red Angus bull that got to visiting the neighbor cows and we got rid of him.

Linn, if you read through the posts, you would find that question was already answered.

I wouldn't be happy about it, but as long as it wasn't a constant occurrence I wouldn't have a complete cow over it. If I knew which cows he bred, I'd likely lute them. Talk to the neighbor and possibly add a hotwire to the fence.

And if you had read all the post, you would remember that she stated that this bull did not respect any type of fences. This is going to be a reoccuring event unless he contains the bull. A bull knows the minute a hot wire is down and goes right through it. I am aware that the question about the shot was answered. You can say it is just natural all you want, but if the shoe was on the other foot, I bet it would start to pinch.

I meant the question about the Jersey bull. Don't worry, I've dealt with neighbor's bulls before. And I've also dealt with my own bulls which have gotten out. We had a neighbor's big blk Simmie bull get in with our cows 3-4 times one summer. Fortunately we only got 3 calves out of him. We called the neighbor a couple times, and a couple times we put the bull back. Thing is, fence in or fence out, it could just as easily been our bull/s that were causing the problems. This time it was the neighbor, next time it could be ours......