If the cow is bred, an injection of Lute will cause her to abort.

As to the other advice posted;

#1 someone will go to jail.

#2 someone will wind up in court.

or both

My only comment is that you be prepared when/if she does come back into heat.

As wrong as it is, and whoever should be responsible, the same thing could likely happen again when/if she comes back in unless you can find a way to prevent it. Maybe you can coordinate wit him to have the bull in a secure area for the week she is due to come back in season??

We can discuss who is responsible, but in the end, you need to be sure your cow is safe, even if keping his bull penned is his responsibilty. Shooting the bull after the fact won't help your cow at the time.

Hugs!

That's what I was thinking actually.
I mean, I sympathize. Truly. We have two small, yearling heifers in our little pasture and right across the road are three of the neighbor's Hereford bulls, out with cows. I really don't want my girls bred this year because of their small size.
But at the same time, should the bulls decide to walk through the fences (which happens), it wouldn't be my neighbor's fault! They aren't dogs, afterall...

But this might be a perspective thing.
I'm a cattleman's wife, and this is ranch country. :shrug:


So far as those suggesting shooting him, you'd better make sure to shoot to kill! I've seen a full grown bull, on the fight, take 5 shots from a .243 and kept coming before a couple of .30-06 shots dropped him. I would not mess around with a ton of wound-up hormones.
Again, this might be a perspective thing...

I don`t know why it is any differant than a neighbors dog, an animal is an animal, and you have got to keep them in where they belong, you are responsible for that animal. And as far as the bull goes he comes across my pasture one last time, deer slugs will do it, right in his tracks. >Thanks marc

Any state I've ever lived, fence out or fence IN, btw, so long as the owner has made a genuine effort to contain his livestock, he would not be liable.
Ie, there's a difference between a known fence-crawler and a bull following hormones on the breeze.

This reminds me of a local lady who complained about cattle getting in her garden.

In the same conversation she complained about her dogs bringing home large bones from some other persons yard.

She said that it should be illegal to have something enticing her dogs to stray from home and that all bones and such should be burried after butchering.

I joked that it should be illegal for people to grow such tasty gardens that enticed cattle to stray from their pasture.

In Linn County, Oregon, the maximum fine for having an animal get through the fence is $6700 AND 15 months in jail. The animal doesn't have to do any damage to anything else, the owner doesn't get any notice, there isn't necessarily a second chance. The owner goes to court, makes his statements, and the judge decides what the fine and jail time will be. Here, if someone complains that the animal got out, the sherriff will appear at the owner's house.
If the bull's owner wasn't being cooperative, I would contact the sherriff. Just because the bull is back in his pen, it isn't too late to make the statement of what happened, and the sherriff may deter the bull's owner from ignoring the situation. I do know about this, from two 30 pound piglets scooting through a bad spot into the grumpy neighbor's scrub oak for a total of 20 minutes.
Good luck.
Kit

Erin, so would it also be true if your bull got out and I hit him on the road, you hold no resposability?>Marc

Exactly.

Unless he was a known fence-crawler, that is. Or fences were known to be in disrepair. Etc. There has to be neglect on the landowner's part.
(On the converse, you the driver would hold no fault either, though there are those who'd argue for that, too. ;) )
Hormones do not count as neglect.

"As to Mary's advice. Why don't you tell her Mary as to what the chances are that the jersey will breed back after giving the injections. Hardly any vets will recommend them due to teh high percentage of the cattle will nto breed back due to the drug.
A jersey can have a elephant. The has been much decussion on here as to the calving ablity of a jersey. I personally had one cow have calves over the 100 mark."

Vets, dairy farmers, and cattle ranchers use Lutalyse all the time to synchronize heats, plan A.I. breedings, and yes, abort unwanted pregnancies. There is absolutely no such problem as a "high percentage not breeding back".
And while some Jerseys can birth large calves, many can't, especially wide bodied beef type calves. Charolais bulls are well known to increase calving difficulties when crossbred to smaller cattle.

If Lutalyse is so problematic, what are people supposedly using instead in order to sync heat cycles to AI? :confused:

There are feed additives that will accomplish the same heat syncronization when used and fed according to directions.

Synchronize heats and AI ing. Yes it is used for that. But, when using it abort you run the risk of the ability to get them to breed back. In this case sooner the better would be best. that would lessen the chance of future problems.

Here in WI if you are running a bull on pasture you are the one that is liable for any and all damage done by said bull. We had a blackie come through a new 6 barb fence. He was after our old bull. We ended up with 6 cows sliced up from the wire when it broke and a really busted up old bull. The angus was moved to a differnt pasture 2 days later after he got back into our place again. 4 days after that he was bologna when got out from the other place. We are lucky now days, all the pastures aroung ours are cornfields now. Sure is less of a worry about cattle getting in with ours.
Some of the less drastic steps you can take about this is. Talk to the neighbor. A bull this size must be on teh end of his stay at that farm. If that fails talk with your township Chairman and local Sheriff office. May even go to the extent of filing a report on it too for future problems when they araise. It all depends on what your neighbor is like and also who's fence the bull got through.
Bob

Marc,
Up here that would be a big law suit in a hurry. If you had no insurance you would ---- near lose the farm over it. A good friend had there angus cattle get spoked on night by dogs. They broke through a gate out on to a majior highway. When it was all said and done a mini van hit a cow doing 60. Everyone walked away from it fine. But, he said the insurance company paid out alot of money on that case.
Bob

Problem bull
 

Cindy

I understand your concern and frustration. Don't have the knowledge to properly advise about you cow. Listen to your vet. Do know that Lutylase, properly administered, will abort her.

Regarding the neighbor bull: Follow the state law to the letter and be sure to keep a detailed log documenting everything you say to your neighbor and his response. Also document every penny you spend because of this incident. Receipts, time required, mileage, etc. Keep copies of everything you give/mail to him and everything he sends you. You may need to mail notice to him by certified mail with a return receipt. This is your proof that you mailed it and proof that he received it. Staple the 2 post office documents/stubs to a copy of the document you mailed and keep it in your file. It is imperative that you do exactly what the law requires in order to protect your rights.

Don't worry about your neighbors reaction. Either he is a good neighbor and will do whatever is right or he will be a not so good neighbor. Nothing you can do can change what he really is inside. However, by following the law, you will let him know that you will not lay down and roll over, but will stand for your legal rights. Just be polite, regardless of his response. Most likely, he will take care of business and do right. Its just like training an animal, child, spouse, etc, if you stand up and let him know what you expect, stand your ground and if necessary a "figurative" (legal)slap on the nose. Sounds like he is trying to be somewhat cooperative. When he is informed of the law and realizes what the possible penalties are, I suspect he will have an attitude adjustment. Very likely, if you handle this firmly, but polite he will become a better neighbor as a result.

FWIW-although it doesn't appear your are required by law, I strongly advise that you put a hot wire along the top of ALL of the common fence with ALL neighbors who have bulls. I suspect there may be many in your area who leave their bulls with the cows year-round. This is merely an ounce of prevention. If you keep that wire HOT, when the bull puts his head over the fence to push it down he will get a jolt that will turn him back. I have never seen a bull that did not respect a properly constructed, really hot fence after his first experience.

The key is the fence has to be really hot. Most all electric fence chargers are GROSSLY overrated by the manufacturers. Get one that is rated for at least 5 times the actual length of your fence. IMO-Regardless of the fence length any charger rated LESS than 25 miles is a waste of money. Had a lease place that came with a 5 mile charger. The owner didn't like e-fence because he only had about 3/4 mile of fence and it wouldn't hold his cows. Fence was well constructed but charger was too wimpy. 25 miler did the job. Make sure you use plenty of ground rods and ground it per the mfg. instructions. Don't skimp on the size of the charger as it is the heart of the system. If the hot wire is properly constructed and maintained, it will be the best piece of mind you can get for a reasonable cost. Another plus for having a single hot wire added to a barbed or net fence is it will keep the cattle from rubbing on the fence and will extend its life greatly.

Hope your cow is ok and best wishes for the future.

I would like you to explain this one.... A 2500 lb mature bull can be an easier calver than a 1000 lb yearling bull. So I don't see how the actual weight of the bull can be an indicator of calving ease.

I imagine the genetic traits of the bull remain the same over his breeding life regardless of his size.

Exactly! Now if the OP had said she was having problems with this bull on a daily basis things would be different. Bulls don't generally get to 2500lbs (or whatever he really weighs) if they are chronic fence crawlers.

The thing that needs to be understood, is that a farmer/rancher has the right to breed his cows for whenever HE wants to have calves the next spring. Just because I want to calve in March, and the neighbor wants to calve in April doesn't give him the right to tell me when I can have my bulls out. In this province, a legal fence is 3 wire, barbed wire and posts. As much as you want to compare cows to people, they are ANIMALS, and I've yet to see a bull rape a cow..... If she won't stand for him, he doesn't breed her, and unless you were there when the actual act happened, you don't really know what was going on, when a cow's in heat, she's in heat, and I can't say I've ever seen any that were particularly fussy when it came to mates. Not saying your cow did, but I have seen cows/heifers crawl fences and travel a couple miles to FIND a bull when they were in heat.

Regardless of the actual laws, you need to take responsibility for your own animals. If he has a legal fence up (and I would expect a 4 wire barbed is probably meeting or exceeding the law), and he did come get his bull when alerted to the problem, you may need to take steps to prevent a problem from happening again. Bite the bullet and put an electric wire up on the bull's side of the fence, or lock your cow up away from the bull whenever she is in heat.

Among most of us ranchers/farmers, who make a living raising Livestock, there isn't a lot of respect for acreage owners, this thread pretty much covers the reasons why......

So the acreage owner is responsible for what happens on both sides of the fence?

At the risk of adding to an incredibly long list of really STUPID advise....

If you kill your neighbors bull you are inviting a world of problems. Next week it might be your cow on his side of the fence and you will be here crying that he shot your cow.

He sounds like a reasonable guy, deal with him as you would like to be dealt with. You may have a jersey bull some day and I'll guarantee that he doesn't want his beef cows bred to a jersey. It could be your bull on his side some day.

While I certainly wouldn't want a Jersey bred to a Charloais, the size of the bull does not determine calf size. That "2500" pound bull was once 800 pounds, and had the same genetics that he does now.

I'm certainly glad some of y'all aint my neighbors.

How distressing it is that so many people do not respect the rights of a person's property in this county and believe an animal or rancher should not only have a say over their own land, but they should determine another person's life and property as well.

I would never have believed such viewpoints could be held by so many people. It is really very shocking.

The repercussions of these mind sets are scary. Imagine telling people they need to control their own cows and keep out other people's bulls - telling these people they are responsible for having fences strong enough to keep out the bull instead of the owner of the bull keeping HIS bull in. That those who are essentially audacious for waning to prevent further destruction and mayhem by possibly killing the bull or being angry and wanting something done are the ones in the wrong.

Who do ranchers imagine they really are? How is your properly and livestock more important than another's? An Acreage owner has as much right to keep shoot your livestock on his property if you will NOT keep it off as you do the right to shoot dogs, wolves, coyotes, cougars, etc that are killing your livestock on your property. Ranchers have NO MORE rights than any other owner of property - be it a yard or whatever else. They should keep their livestock off another person's property unless the law says they do not have to do so. . .

Do you forget this small farms and acreage owners might have children? You know, I suggested keeping a miniature bull behind huge, solid corral panels, and many responses said if children were around, I should not do this. . .
But there are people here suggesting that dangerous livestock have more rights than human beings do to their property, livelihood and safety.
Children can be on these properties. They can be killed by a bull coming through a fence. What then? Well, the way some of you talk, that child would get what he/she was asking for by being outside and the parents at fault for not keeping the child behind hotwire - 4 strands, at that.

It is addressed as if this woman asked for it by having dared leave her cow unbred - excuse me, but I think that a citizen has a right to be able to safely leave her cow in that state on her land, behind her fence if she so chooses without second guessing her safety or even her reasons.

I mean, I just can't fathom some of these responses. Cannot.

In this state - 4 strands of barbed wire is not enough for an uncastrated bull or stallion.
I imagine in many states, if you look to the law, you will find the law is not often going to be on the side of a loose bull in someone else's yard.

Someone asked, and yes, the bull is 2500 lbs, at least, maybe more.

The neighbor has a flat part at the bottom, at the road, where he lives, with a barn, pond and hot wire. The uphill part to my place is all woods. I can not see down there, much, some open spots, but it is too far to see well. He has a place to keep the bull locked in. The bull has always been down at the bottom.

The owner told me himself when he was here getting his bull, that the bull can walk through any fence, hot or not, a barn wall, etc. He told me that my barn was not good enough to keep his bull out if he wanted her. My barn is up by my house, 60-70 yards uphill from the fence. There are no other neighbors. All the land behind me is hunting land.

So, he knew his bull could walk through the fence if he wanted. Any fence. He knew I had a milk cow and a steer. He rides his 4 wheeler up the road sometimes and then goes back down. And there are cows across the road down there, right on the other side. And another bull. Earlier this year I saw his bull down there walking the fence along the road and screaming at the cows and bull across the street. He was firing warning shots at his bull to get away from the fence. He said his bull wanted to get to that other bull. I thought his bull stayed down at the bottom, and was only out when he was watching.

And I already said I do not want a feud or problems with the neighbor. I would not shoot the bull with the 22. I know better. But I could fire it into the ground to warn him away if he gets out and is back up here.

If he has a legal fence up (and I would expect a 4 wire barbed is probably meeting or exceeding the law), and he did come get his bull when alerted to the problem, you may need to take steps to prevent a problem from happening again. Bite the bullet and put an electric wire up on the bull's side of the fence, or lock your cow up away from the bull whenever she is in heat.

4 strands of barbed wire for a 2500 lb bull? Lock my cow up? Where do I go with her? He already told me my barn is not good enough if his bull wants my cow. There is no where to go. I can not put up a hot wire, it is all woods on his side and branches would be touching it all the time. Besides, he told me the bull will walk right through hot wire. And he has not come up to fix his side of the fence yet, my side is fixed, but his barbed wire is gone, stretched and broke.

I have seen this beast up close, and a bull of this size should be behind big walls if an owner chooses to keep one this big. We don't live out in the boonies, there are farms everywhere out here, and houses. For heavens sake, a young bull would get his few cows bred. He does not show them or anything.

Cindy, you have been given some very good advice here - and some absolute garbage - but I think you have the brains to work out which is which. Mistletoads links are pretty much the same as what goes in this country and I rather thought that although there would be subtle differances, the laws would be basically the same and they are.

While I fully understand that you don't want to get off-side with neighbours, this particular one is knowingly and deliberately keeping a bull that he knows he cannot contain and is putting the onus of responsibility on to you and it follows that his attitude encompasses every farmer in the neighbourhood. That is not on under any circumstances and even less so when your fencing is up to par for the type of stock you run.

For those of you whom disagree with that and think this chap should be able to run his bull willy-nilly, think again. People fence to the stock they are keeping. If I want to run bulls I don't fence with chicken wire. If I want to run deer I don't fence with sheep fences, if I want to run sheep I don't fence with cattle fencing. If I want to keep mice I put them in a mouse cage not a dog run. Get real.

Cindy, I agree with those that advise getting your cow aborted. No way in the world would I breed a Jersey to a Charolias, they are pigs of things within their own breed, they just become bigger pigs when cross bred. Please, don't take the risk. It has nothing to do with the size of the bull, if he only weighed 1,000lbs I would say the same thing. It's the genetics of the breed that will dictate calf size, not the size of the bull.

And please also don't even consider shooting him. As somebody earlier said, you could well find yourself in a court of law. If he appears on your property again ring Animal Control and have him impounded. It will cost your neighbour to get him back plus trucking fees etc. and he may then take a bit more notice of his fencing and where and what his bull is up to.

I am so pleased that I have good neighbours.

Cheers,
Ronnie

Why on earth would the neighbor keep such a bull anyway? Can someone answer that question for me. If you know your fences can`t stop him, and you need to use a gun shooting in the air to turn him. Why??? I don`t care how good a bull he is, if I couldn`t keep him in I wouldn`t have him. And if he gotout and hurt my neighbor or her cow he would be down the road fast, hello Oscar Mayer. You get good money for heavy bulls, and if he has kept him around long enough to get that big, he has got his moneys worth out of him. I may have miss spoke when I said shoot him, but if he can`t be stopped, call the sherrif and let him shoot him. I know you will end up in court, but sometime you have to do something like that to straighten things out. You have asked him to keep him locked up and he either can`t or won`t, so you have rights as a American citizen to be safe from a huge animal. Hope this works out for you, you need to feel safe on your own place.>Thanks Marc

If the man can't control/restrain his animal, then he shouldn't own it...He's aware that his fencing isn't sufficient to keep his animal on his land...He's liable for any damages as a result

around here, if a bull becomes a problem the owner usually has the stones to put it down himself.
I think this argument is interesting. The ranchers out west think it's the OP's respnsibility, the farmers further east think it's the neighbor's. I think there's an understanding among neighbors wherever you happen to be, and the OP is clearly not in an open range situation, so the responsibility here is the neighbor's. In OK or KS or somewhere, it would fall on the owner of the cow.
You don't want to start a feud, but you have to stand up for your security. Be calm about it and call the sheriff. If the bull comes back have him come out and put it down.

And BTW, someone mentioned cougars and wolves-around here, you have the right to put down a dog or a bull if it's on your property, but if you shoot a wolf that killed a calf, you're on the hook for big fines, maybe jail time. It's messed up.

good luck with the neighbor

No, I didn't say that. It certainly isn't their fault that the bull came through the fence. But you must realize, that the guy that owns the bull, didn't come out and put him through the fence either, and most likely isn't real happy that he went through the fence. Cow's are cows and bull's are bulls. And if it were me in this situation, that bull would be going back out with my cows, I can't afford to have dry cows just because my neighbor is in a panic. I'd definitely be sorry that he got out, I've actually been in a similar situation, but I also understand that having a cow in heat on the other side of a fence from a bull is like putting a chocolate cake in front of a bunch of kids and expecting them not to touch it.

On the contrary! But when people get into livestock areas, they need to understand the nature of livestock. And as much as we might wish that they'd see those fences and say, "Huh... I guess I'm not supposed to go over there." that just doesn't happen.
Ranchers (or livestock farmers) need to make an effort to keep their livestock contained (tight fences, no fence crawlers, etc.) but beyond that, you just hope for the best. :shrug:

However, since we've now found out (three pages into the conversation!) that this bull is a known fence crawler she has a legal standing against the neighbor.
When he was just a run-of-the-mill bull who followed hormones, she didn't.



It has nothing to do with who is more important than whom. It's just understanding the nature of livestock. And large groups of livestock are a completely different set of challenges than a couple of heifers.

Unfortunately, the same is true out here in the Plains states, too.

The why, for those who have missed it, is because small acreage owners generally don't understand the nature of livestock. They understand the nature of a few head but not an actual herd. And most livestock are herd animals. Ie, the dynamics of the group, as well as the nature of the animals, are completely different when you have herds rather than a few.

Statutes and rules and such are all fine and dandy (and why the difference between a known fence crawler or bad fences is stipulated, afterall!) but if you know anything about cattle, you know that if you don't want your heifers bred, you keep them well away from anywhere the neighbors might have bulls.
Bulls don't read statutes.

Now, all the info comes out. Before it was a bull that got out because the neighbor's cow was in heat, ONCE. Now we find out the details, that the owner obviously has been down the road with this bull before, that the bull by the sounds of it, has lost his respect of any fence. Now in this case, as the owner, that bull would be gone. In fact most likely that bull would have been gone when I first realized he would not respect an electric.

As far as me expecting that it is not the owners responsibility to fence that bull in, but the neighbor's to fence him out, I am not saying that at all. It should be a mutual responsibility. If the owner has a good solid fence, there is nothing wrong with the neighbor adding a hot wire to it for added security.

So basicaly the large land owner is responsible to fence "in" to the minimum required by law and the acreage owner must fence "out" to cover the insuficiencies?

Thank you for articulating what I was trying to say......

It works both ways, any landowner is required to fence to the minimum standard, after that they have a couple options, either sue or have a fight every time there is a problem, get used to the idea that there will be some problems or add to the fencing situation. I don't want your Jersey bull (for example) breeding my beef cows any more than you want that big Char bull breeding your Jersey or Dexter cows.

As a rancher, I don't want my animals out, and I will do what I can to ensure that they stay where they are put, within reason, but I'm not going to build an expensive buffalo fence on the chance that I might have the odd cow/bull crawl my fence. However, if I have an animal that won't stay in, then they don't last long around here, they get hauled to the sale barn, or eaten. I have enough work to keep me busy, without having to constantly be running around putting animals back in their fences.

But as ErinP says, I know enough that I don't go putting a bunch of open cow/heifers next to a pasture with bulls in it without expecting to have some problems.REGARDLESS of the actual laws, I'd certainly be putting an electric fence up in that case, or be finding another place to put my cows. The owner of the bulls has as much right to have his bulls on any given piece of his land as I do to have my cows on any piece of my land. But by putting those cows there, I am as much at fault if he has a bull crawl the fence as he is.

So having lush green grass on my side of the fence would also absolve my neighbors cattle for following their instincts and busting through to my property?

Well, it would absolve the cattle, but not the neighbor. I mean, you can't really expect a starving animal not to try and save themselves. There are good neighbors and bad ones.

If you have a neighbor who always has cattle out, (and it doesn't matter whether you're an acreage owner or a rancher) then you take the necessary steps. But if it is a neighbor who keeps his fences up and usually doesn't have cattle out, then you need to try and work with them. Build your fence better when he has a bull out, move your cows away from a communal fence, whatever you can (within reason) to help keep a problem from happening.

No, if the large land owner has cattle he wants to keep from his neighbors' bulls, he'll do the exact same thing.

The difference is, HE expects it to be that way. The acreage owner doesn't.


Around here, it's common to call the neighbors when you're about the take bulls out, if you're going to be up against a fence where they have heifers. (Cows, will get a warning sometimes too, but almost always heifers will).
Not that you're going to do anything different, necessarily, when you put them out. Just a courtesy to let your neighbor know that he might want to move his heifers. Or not.
His call.

I'm in the interesting position of being both a small acreage owner and well as a large-acreage operator. We run cows for an investor on his land. But live on our little forty acres.

Our pasture is surrounded on three sides by the neighbor's 1.5 section pasture. His fences are notorious for being loose. Ideally, he should fix half of the fence between he and us, but we just keep it up. Why? Does that mean he's more important than us?

No, it just means it's far more important to us that the fences are tight than it is to him. Annoying, sure. But if I truly care about what happens to my heifers (as well as my grass), that's what I'll do to keep his cattle out.

If not suggested yet, you might want to consider high-tension woven wire instead of barbwire. Supposed to be stronger. I'd run 2 strands of barb wire on top, AND a stand-off Hot wire on the bull side of the fence...

Check your local laws (some states are fence out rather than fence in) but around here it is your neighbor's responsibility to keep his Bull on his property, and he owe's you for any expenses incurred because of his failing to do this. This includes vet bills and cost for repairing fences.

Simple. Go to the your local court house and ask to see if they have on file the fencing regulations for your state. Then call your township chairman and report to him what happend. Then also make a report with the sheriff's office. This way you are covered. Also as in many states since he is not keeping up his half of the fence, then by going through the township you should beable to have them get it fixed and have him billed on his taxes. Many states that have or had a dairy industry has very strict regs about bulls on pasture. This was due to yrs ago many was would about gentics and such before AI.


Also get some slugs for you shotgun. If by chance you ever need to protect yourself, they will be what you need instead of the 22. That is what I ment in my other post. I did not mean to shoot the bull for no other reason only in self defence.

Good level headed common sense advice.

OP has or has access to a computer. Research the Livestock Laws for Kentucky.

Fence laws and Livestock laws are entirely different, they are here in Oklahoma.