Dairy farmers using rotational grazing
 

For some time now I have been talking to my uncle (who has a smallish dairy farm) about rotational grazing. He is one of the many who are strugling these days with milk prices, and increasing costs. Being that he is "old school", he seems reluctant to read to much about it (I sent him the link to the RG sticky), and try to incorporate some of the ideas. I know there are alot that do RG with beef cows, but how many are doing it with dairy production, and what areas of the country are you in. Right now he kinda seems a bit convinced that it will not work well in his area, so I am looking for suggestions for those that do RG help me get him a bit more interested it looking. I fear that it will not be long before the farm goes under, so any ideas on how I can help, at some point I am going to make a drive up just to try and help find ways to get him going in a more sustainable/hopefully profitable path.

Curtis B

IMO to dairy and use rotational grazing the number of cows would be important. The reason is the cows would need to come to the milking parlor at least twice per day. To me this would mandate that the areas to be grazed could not be too remote to the barn. If the herd is very large it would exceed the grazing area in reasonable proximity to the milking area. A cow herd of 60 +- should be manageable. I do know that some dairy folks in cold climates milk only a portion of the year and do so in the growing seasons. They dry off the herd as cold weather approaches and feed hay during the Winter. This seems to work well for them.

Has your uncle ever considered going with beef cattle? Even a small herd of rotational grazed beef cattle can be more profitable than he may realize. Dairy farmers handle a fair amount of money but they do not get to keep mush of it after all the expenses are covered. A beef farmer that does the rotational grazing eliminates one of the major expenses associated with beef calf production in that there is minimal hay required. Feed cost to a conventional cattle producer will run from 60 to 80% of the cost in production.

Your uncle is a survivor in that he has made it this far in the dairy business. A little redirection could go a long ways to a person with his determination. Had I not become aware of the benefits of rotational grazing I would have abandoned the cattle business. If you thought that I could answer some of his questions I would be happy to link up by phone after 9PM eastern when my minutes are free.

I don't think I have ever asked, but I have often wondered why not run beef. IMO a person could do both, I have often thought that a little diverity can help alot in some cases. I know that on occasion he breeds with an Angus bull. I have been thinking about my costs of buying all his bull calves, bringing them down here, feeding them to 500lb, and then talking to the sale. Where he is he is selling his bull calves for less than half of what they do just 2 1/2 hrs away where I live. I just think that even a bit RG could save him alot.

I sold feeder calves Monday. The prices were very good particularly if you take into consideration they are going to be transported half way across the country. Black Heifers weighing in the 450 lb range sold for $121/100. Simmental crossed (wrongly identified, were actually Murray Grey/Angus crossed) heifers weighing in the 530 lb range brought $98.50/100, Black steers weighing 465lb brought $1.30/100. These animals were grouped and not sold by the head.

Curtis
It can be done with dairy cattle with out any problem. On the dairy I milk part time we use this set up.
We use a 4 pasture system, Bahia grass , coastal pasture, and hay grazer. The milking herd goes on over seeded hay grazer right after milking for 2 hrs then we move them to on of the other pastures, we never use the same pasture 2 days in a row. Final pasture is Bahia grass that they are on at night which is right next to the milking barn. The pastures are set up on a semi circle with water troughs in the lot. After the cows get used to the movement they come up for water and we close the gate and have 1 of the others open for them to graze onto which has trees for shade, and lay around chew their cud and wait for next milking. Now we feed a 18% Dairy feed before they go on hay grazer to keep down bloat at the rate of 8 # per cow. Using this method for several yrs our milk production stays in the 40-45# range during the hot summer months.

I use grazing in the spring/summer/fall months, my cows get a new pasture each week. I use brome,orchard and clover. Not all grasses will work in all parts of the country, so you have to experiment. I also have Jersey cows, I think they graze better during summer, are not as big as Holsteins, so they don`t eat as much. I also sold my angus cows and switched to dairying, my Jersey cows don`t eat as much as my angus use to. Plus I have an income every month not once a yaer when I sold calves. Yes agman you are getting good money this year for your cattle, but remember not long ago beef prices where iffy at most. I make just as much with my Jersey cows as I did with the angus, yes I do work a few more hours, but that is something I like to do, for now anyway.Thanks Marc

Marc
Since I went into year round rotational grazing and calving year round with the proper frame cattle, the situation has changed very positively for me. I sell at least 4 times a year so I do have cash flow. I am not tied to the seasonal sells and the typical lower prices associated when everyone else is selling. I do sell into the open market for my convenience but I also have an alternate market should I decide to go the direction of selling natural grass fed non antibiotic animals directly to individuals. I have also had an opportunity to contract these animals to a processor. I do strongly believe that I can survive a down market until the beef industry totally collapses. Provided the market for feeder calves does not fall below ~75% of its current rate I expect to at least break even.

Curtis, if your uncle is of the "old school" it will probably be very difficult to change his mind set.

Rotational grazing is very achievable for dairy herds although in your part of the world it may depend on what part of the country you are in. In NZ 1,000 cow herds are RG with anything between 14-21 days between going back to the first paddock.

Here, the cowsheds are generally near the road to facilitate tanker pick-up and from there the farm will be raced - how this is done will depend on the lie of the land but most farms will have one, maybe two, central races with perhaps secondary races coming off them with paddocks opening off them. These paddocks are large enough to cope with whatever herd size will be in them for the day and all have their own water troughs. Any supplementary feeding such as grain, molasses or PKE is done at a feed pad near the cowshed.

The farm is usually cut up into "day" paddocks and "night" paddocks. The night paddocks will be those nearest the shed and smaller than day paddocks. Even if you can get your uncle to come around to your way of thinking (which is a good way), how successful it is will be dependent on the quality of grasses that are available and if these are poor the financial cost of regrassing at this point in his career may not be worth it. The same goes for setting the farm up for easy stock flow and water reticulation, although two strand electric fencing is economical and is all that is required as the cattle are never in one paddock long enough to start pushing the boundaries.

I wish you luck and sincerely hope that you can either persuade him to change his thinking or quit while he's ahead and look at other options for land use. And turning a dairy farmer into a beef farmer is not an easy task:grin:

Cheers,
Ronnie

Ronnie,

I can mentally visualize rotating a 1000 head of cows. The paddocks would obviously be larger but with them being larger the outlying paddocks would end up being a great distance from any central point. As long as water was available and with a beef herd there would be no problems What I have difficulty understanding is how such a large dairy would be able to move the herd the distances required to get them to the milking facility. I would think that it would involve moving the milk cows several miles each milking and that is bound to be problematic. Where am I going wrong with my thinking?

We are doing a little gambling out here in western Kansas. 17 head approx 500 lb heifers. 3 little cool season grass pastures of about 3 acres each at best. Turned em out on April Fools Day. The grass is about a foot tall now. Will be rotating them.

ELDONATOR
Are you planning on rotating between each of the 3 each 3 acre pastures or are you going to further break down each 3 acre pasture into multiple paddocks? Doing the latter will greatly extend your forage.

Agman; I have solved your grazing problem with the milk cows, Portable milking parlor !! I know I have seen something about this somewhere, but can`t remember where. It could be done, don`t know how good it would work. Thanks marc

Eldonator, What is your annual rainfall?
also your brome will not grow much in July and august due to hot weather. I think you will be looking for additional pasture useless mother nature is very kind to you. As agmantoo said more subdivisions would help. Rest period for the grass is the important consideration. Good luck

It requires good animal husbandry skills. On larger farms (1000+ cows) it can take 30 to 60 minutes to move the cows to the shed from the most remote paddocks, and they can walk 2km (1 mile?) or more 4 times a day.
The main problem is avoiding lameness.
Allowing the cows to move at their own pace (as fast as the cows in the middle of the herd wish to move). Not over crowding in the yards or the approach, by splitting a 1000 cow herd into 2 or 3 mobs, Maintaning the tracks they use 4 times a day, prompt treatment of lameness.
A farm I herd test on (close to the alps) has flat areas and river terraces, so the cows go up and down hills on their way to and from the shed. 2500 cows, 2000 once a day milking, 500 twice a day milking(I was told last time the twice a day milking was to slim these cows down a bit before calving) They are totally anal about lameness, a cow only has to trip over a crack in the concrete and she is drafted into the lame mob. They had 200 in the lame mob last month, but only 7 were actually being treated for lameness.
Basically I'm saying, if you are pro-active it can be done and done well.

Agmentoo, the plan is to let them onto one 3 acre plot till it looks like time to move them to the next plot, then the next, etc. How small of plots would you recommend for 17 head of heifers? It could be done.

Bruce2288, I agree with you about the grass. I figure that if we are lucky with some rain, it will be April, May and June. I don't exactly know what are annual rainfall is but my guess would be 16 inches? This is semi-arrid desert, sad to say. Maybe the heifers will be ready to take to the sale at the end of June, if not, my son in law has several acres of warm season grass we can let them have for a while. Any thoughts regarding the size of the plots or how many will be appreciated.

Portable milking parlor


don't think they've approved these in the states yet.
Guy down the road rotates several hundred during the spring/fall on his organic place.
Lots of paddocks lots of water troughs.

http://www.mosesorganic.org/attachme...grazingop.html

I answered this last night then banged my mouse and lost the lot. I did the next easiest thing and went to bed:p

Agman, your not going wrong with your thinking. As Valmai says, these cows can walk several kms per day to and from the shed. It also makes for some very long days with milking starting as early as 3.30am (or earlier) in the morning and cows being taken back to the shed by 1.30pm in the afternoon. On one farm I lived next to I could watch the last cow disappear through the cutting that led to the shed over an hour after the first had gone through it. It can be done, and indeed is now the norm over here with herds growing ever larger. Whether it is good farming practice is another matter as cows on the move are not eating or ruminating.

Cheers,
Ronnie

Move to Fulton Ill. next door to Marc and you will not sing the same tune! Your area is good for what you do and works well but some other posters do not have the same options.

Wanda,
I am interested in hearing more about the obstacles you perceive I would face in Fulton Ill. If you think what I have came about over night and with ease then you would have misjudged. It is because of the obstacles I incurred that I take the time I do to try to assist others.

If I lived near Fulton Ill. I would do the same thing that I have done here in NC regarding my operation. I would adapt to what works for me and my farm. For example, my forage is endophyte infected fescue with its shortcomings. I do not want to feed that to my cattle but this is acidic soil and ranging temperatures, that so far the non- infected fescues do not persevere. My cattle at sale time are probably a little older than in areas of fertile and mineral rich soils. I accept this as it is not economical to raise the production of the soil any higher than I have it. Surely I would not produce calves all year. I would most likely calve with the season to where the cows would have plenty of forage and the calves would not be stressed with the cold. Then again, if I were there I would not be as concerned with heat stress for as lengthy period as here. What I am saying is I would adapt and I would find my niche. Maybe I would stockpile forage in windrows for offsetting hay use in Winter when the ground is snow covered for long periods. Maybe I would graze crop residue on leased land. For the area and the market in Fulton, I would still strive to be the low cost producer and I would sell what I could produce from my place profitably. There are obstacles wherever one resides. These obstacles are the challenges one faces regardless of their location. You would be surprised at the number of calf producers here that will state what I do will not work!

Curtis, there are lots and lots and LOTS of dairy graziers here in Wisconsin. There should be more in my opinion, but I'm biased ;)

There is a publication dedicated to grazing, it's called GRAZE, published here in southern WI. Over 80% of it is articles detailing how dairy farmers set up their dairies and how they work out specific problems, etc., including rations. See if you can locate a few issues in your local library to lend to your uncle. I have subscribed to Graze for years, and I always find it a very valuable farmer to farmer kind of pub.

Milk prices are going up, but not real fast. The dairies that survive will be the ones that can produce milk with the fewest inputs and least cost. I hope your uncle can be one of them.

We are a rotational grazing dairy. Our pastures are a mix of orchard grass, clover, alfalfa, and fescues. We have several large pastures which we give the cows a new strip of every 12 hours. We use hotwire to do this. They walk as far as a couple miles, depending on which pastures they are going to.
Our main issue is that we are very hilly and in bad weather, the steep hills can be an issue. Why we are breeding for a smaller cow than the average Holstien by bringing in Jersey, Swiss and soon, Shorthorn bloodlines. Also makes for a better grazing cow than the average Holstien.
Using intensive rotational grazing, we can pasture from April to December on much smaller acreage than if the cows were just let graze as they liked.
You are in Kansas, we are in Missouri, so the difference in location is not a lot. We do have decent pasture ground, but poor cropland in our area.

That's amazing Ozark Jewels. Every 12 hours. I am curious, how many cows on how much acreage for 12 hours? What is the ratio?

Curtis B, There's a guy named Tom Trantham in South Carolina who was an "old-school" dairyman on the verge of bankruptcy. The cows jumped the fence and got in the "weeds" but their production increased. Now he's a believer in rotational grazing. I know your uncle's location would require different practices, but it is possible to rotate with a dairy.

You can google him or read a brief version of his story at http://www.happycowcreamery.com/About.htm

Charlie Opitz at belmont ,WI was at one time using a mobile unit to milk in. I think they milk close to 1000 or more on RG. They got one huge spread they run cows on. Also they run a mixed herd too with alot of swiss and jerseys.
Agman, One thing comes to mind about the upper midwest is our climate. I live about a 1 1/2 north of Marc. Our winters can be harsh. Even running cattle in farm fields or pastures in the winter most winters is impossible. A foot of snow or more most times. Then with the spring the cattle will rip up pastures due to the snow melt and spring rains. Everyone thinks the midwest is a great place to farm but its not. Expect to put hay up to feed cattle atleast 6 months out of the yr. Then deal with the extremes of the climate. Sometimes you see100+ in the summer and -35 in the winter.
Its a challenge that you learn to adapt too and thrive upon.
Bob

Madsaw,

I have traveled a lot. I have never farmed in your area but I have been there numerous times. I do realize that the weather is an obstacle and not just a challenge. I recall I was in Wausau once in the Winter and a person told me I should come back in the Summer. He went on to say that would be the second week in July!

You do have some benefits that I do not. I get hit hard on the fact that it is a long haul to any stockyards. The dockage is often as much as 30 cents per lb. under the prices paid in the midwest. Cattle that are grown in cold country also grow bigger, same as the deer. Your soils are more fertile and your growing season, though short, is very productive. Soil here is depleted by the long growing season and soil compaction is a problem. I do not feed any grain but grain sold here brings less if not consumed locally due to shipping. Grain brought here sourced from the grain producing midwest states costs more. Mid western farmers that visit here say they would quit if they had our low yields. I remain firm with my opinion that to be successful in agriculture one needs to recognize their advantages and then work to maximize the benefits that can be gained from those advantages. As farmers selling on the open market we do not set the selling prices but we can do a lot to influence our expenses. This is where we can impact our situations by striving to be the low cost producer thus creating better a profit margin that will sustain us.

Eldonator. You may have a chance since you aren't planning for the whhole grazing season. From my experience you need at least 2 weeks rest,3 would be better. It is also important on a fast grazing cycle to not graze too short. you need to leave some leaf area for photosynthesis so the grass can recover and grow back quickly. The most efficient would be daily moves also the most messing around but not much on that small of paddocks. I would fence1/2 acre put them in and see how the calves and the grass look after 24 hours. a lot of rotational grazing is fluid as no pasture or weather is constant. Having a fall back pasture makes experimentation a lot less risky. I would be interested on what you do and how it goes.

Bob,
I was at a grazing conference this winter, and the speaker, who was a beef grazier from Kansas I think, said we here in WI feed WAY too much hay to our cattle in the winter.:hrm: Then he went on to say they had such a horrible winter this year, they were feeding a lot of hay - why, they'd had nearly 100 inches of snow!! And I laughed and said Now you know why WE feed hay like that every year!

I've never been out west in the winter, and I've always wondered how they accomplish so much stockpiled grazing. I mean, they get snow, too. And then I finally figured out that they don't have the deep snow that we do. Snow falls there, but it's always blowing off the fields, and it doesn't get too deep very often. The cows can find it, and the snow pack doesn't crush the grass into a mat.

And now I know where a lot of our snow is coming from ;)

Thanks all for your input. ELDONATOR, what area of W. KS are you in, my uncle is near Hays, so I think ya'll will have similar growing conditions, and I am curious about what you have planted. Welshmom, thanks for the link, it looks like it has alot of good info, so I am doing one better and getting him a subscription. He is supposed to be sending me an arial photo, so I will be looking at trying to figure out some sort of rotation for him. He is currently running about 110 head on about 330 acres, which is rented unfortunatly, so if it can be avoided there can be no perminant mods. I appreciate the input as I try to help figure something out, Calving should start again in Jan/Feb, which is a bad time of year there, but there is time this year to get something sustainable started. Looks like I should be getting some good calves next year from him he is breeding with an angus bull now.:banana02: I just need to figure out a plan for getting his bull calves down here.

Curtis B, we are 2 hours ssw of Hays. Barenbrug Seed, dryland pasture mixture-smoth bromegrass,intermediate wheatgrass, jumbo annual ryegrass, cambria orchardgrass, drover tall fescue. My son-in-law thinks this grass is superior to some irrigated pasture mix he planted and has killed it off and went back to crop planting there. Last year we had 5 or 6 head on my little pastures. They couldn't keep up with it. Mowed it once, should have combined the seed and planted it elsewhere, might this year, who knows. By the way, I doubt if each kind of grass actually came up or is thriving, but it looks good.

Curtis, we rotationally graze our cows. We did in far northern WI and we do here in KS. All though here is KS we have a huge amount of pasture renovation and fencing to do yet. The milk prices in the past year haven't helped our progress any. We have learned a lot in 3 years but we are still learning how to deal with KS weather and soil vs. northern WI weather and soil. These are grazers we have studied and have a lot of respect for.

Saxon Homestead Farms...Wisconsin
Bernie Van Dalfsen.. Reeds,Missouri
Carl Nichols Dairy (http://nicholsdairy.com/).. Westphalia,Kansas
Charles Opitz Family Dairy...Wisconsin
Kenneth King (http://www.jakoinc.com/).....Hutchinson Kansas

Curtis,

That is great about getting him a subscription to Graze, I'm sure he'll enjoy it and get lots out of it. Your uncle should be aware that there is a definite learning curve with getting started in grazing (as there is with anything), but the benefits are many. I have found graziers to be very helpful folks. If at all possible, try to get your uncle (and you?) to some pasture walks, grazing meetings, or seminars. There's nothing like seeing a new concept in person, and nothing like talking to real live people with experience to help smooth out that learning curve and get some real understanding and enthusiasm going!

We generally run 65-75 head of Holstien and Holstien crosses. They get aproximately 6000 square feet of new pasture every 12 hours. More or less depending on how dry we have been and how thick the forage is. They get a new strip every time they leave the milk barn. We utilize two pastures at a time. They come in off one pasture and go out to another pasture. This way there is no rush to move hotwire while the cows are in the barn.

That is very interesting O J. I did some quick calculations and for one little pasture, splittingit up at the ratio you gave me, I should be able to move them 15 times before moving them to the next pasture. That would be two weeks. I put them on the current pasture on April fools day. My soninlaw came over this morning looking things over and said we would probably need to move them at the end of this week.

Eldonator
My cattle get nothing but pasture. Currently for 92 cows/heifers they are getting 587 sq. ft. per animal per day. This does not take the calves into consideration. I average ~1.2 acres+ for mature animal for feed for the entire year. As I was exiting Winter it was taking 3+ acres per day as I was back grazing land that had been grazed prior. As the forage hits it peak growing period I will be allocating as little as 7/10th of an acre per day. I think you are going to run out of feed unless you take very conservative actions. How are you determining how much area to allocate now? Are the heifers manuring up grass that is wasted and how much forage is remaining when they are moved?

ELDONATOR, I have a question also. You said that you ran 5 or 6 head last year on 9acres and still had to mow. Were these full grown cows, or calves? I figured it up, and that was 1.8 or 1.5 acres per cow. I didn't even think I could do that in SC Kansas (I was hoping for 2 cows per acre), I just wanted to make sure, cause that gives me alot of hope.

Agmantoo, I don't know the answer the your question regarding area allocation, but, yes I know they are manuring up the grass. I think there will be a fairly good amount of forage after we move them.

Curtis B, they were probably 500 lb calves to start with. Well, it probably sounded better than it actually was. Yes, it was a good grass year, no, they couldn't keep up with the growth,BUT, when summer hit with the hellish, hot, windy, dry unrelentingly miserable days, the grass stopped growing, we pulled them off, tookum to the sale barn and that was it. By the end of July it was over. Things could have been managed better but every year is different around here.

ELDONATOR

The reason for my question as to your determining on how much area to allocate is that you are wasting feed. I believe that in the long sticky above I described how to make that decision. If you cannot not conclude how to determine the amount come back here and I will assist. The growing seasons will vary and you need to know how to conserve feed to get through the trying times.

Well, I am tired, sore, sunburnt, eyes burning and my feet hurt just from helping get the seedlings into the garden.
I thought I would bring this back so we can vote on it. We had rain just a week ago. .75 of an inch, but, it is blowing 45 mph with upper 80's right now. Tomarrow will be 25 degrees cooler. The 500 lb heifers went on pasture April fools day. On the 27 the had rotated through all three little pastures and were back on the original. I opened up a small area of warm season grass, lot of cheat grass it it this year, to maybe extend the time they can be there. The heifers look great but we need some rain and some more cooler weather for this grass.

Looks like I killed this thread but I will ramble on anyway. I am slowly reading through the sticky thread with agmantoo's sage advice. Very informative. Anyway, it's hard to know for sure but we probably should have had 10 heifers instead of 17. My soninlaw was over this morning and the plan, as of know, is that we are going to take them over to his farm. He has two different pastures with some cool and warm season grass in them. If and when we get some rain and my grass gets its regrowth we will divide them up and he will keep a few to keep the weeds and such out of his pens and stuff. Anyway, another lesson learned. These cattle look very good. None have been sick or bad eyes or anything. They hey are very calm minded cattle also. Very nice to have around.

Eldonator, you didn't kill it. Finish reading the RG thread, it will fill in the gaps I think you are missing. You have the rotating right, I think you have too many cattle though. The way I understand it is that you will not be able to stockpile enough to get through summer, let alone winter. If they rotated though in under 30 days with spring growth, there is no way they could have enough for 90-120 days in the winter with no growth. Where did you get your pasture mix seed? I contacted barenburg via e-mail, and have had no response from them.