Interesting beef vaccinating theory

linn · #21 02/18/10, 03:52 PM

I don't think Welshmom was looking for a confrontation, just stating her opinion. I think we all should be able to voice our opinion without fear of a confrontation or fear of offending someone. She doesn't want to buy cattle from that guy so what? I don't see why it concerns you just because you have the same philosophy. I didn't notice Welshmom or anyone else trying to force their ideas, just stating their opinion.

agmantoo · #22 02/18/10, 08:44 PM

linn, I asked a straight forward question because I am genuinely interested in why she has that position. I am sorry I did not candy coat the question but there was no offense taken or intended. If I were to get rude I am afraid you would cry. These are is adults here.

Cliff · #23 02/19/10, 04:23 AM

My opinion is much the same as agman and the op's friend. Of course if something obvious pops up it is taken care of.
I too wonder why welshmom wouldn't buy the cattle. They are hearty healthy and as god intended them to be.

linn · #24 02/19/10, 05:46 AM

Everyone has a right to his/her opinion. I don't think trading stinging remarks is an adult attitude.

springvalley · #25 02/19/10, 06:38 AM

I didn`t take Agman`s remark as stinging but I would like to know also. I have a neighbor lady that has a few acres. She started getting a few calves, Has the vet out to work them, which includes the hormones for faster growth. Plus she buys her calves at the sale barn also, when I had my angus cows I would tell her I would sell her calves, and she still bought them at the sale barn. Anyway I asked her why she had the vet give them all the vac., and growth hormones and such ? And she just said thats what everyone else does. I couldn`t beleive it, and I asked her if she still eats that stuff she just looked at me like I had a third eye. That is the same reaction I get from people about our raw milk now, '' You mean you drink that without being pasturized" I can`t understand people. Thanks Marc.

Lazy J · #26 02/19/10, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agmantoo

Welshmom,
Above I posted that I follow a similar regimen. Therefore your comment of not buying any cattle concerns me. What do you see wrong with these animals to create such an attitude?

For me the simple answer is co-mingling. If I purchase animals for other sources which have a different health status than yours, which are naive to, then the animals from your herd will become sick.

This happened to me when I purchased two caesarean section derived SPF boars for my farm. When I brought them back to my herd which was made up of animals from several sources, they became sick so sick that I had to sell both of them as sausage. The issue was that their immune system was not prepared for the challenges of my enfironment.

However your herd should have a strong immune system due to your selection pressure which should allow the animals to combat immune challenges better than other cattle. But the lack of exposure to common and devastating diseased through vaccination should be a concern to those that may purchase.

Jim

Wanda · #27 02/19/10, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agmantoo

Welshmom,
Above I posted that I follow a similar regimen. Therefore your comment of not buying any cattle concerns me. What do you see wrong with these animals to create such an attitude?
Interesting beef vaccinating theory - Cattle

Interesting beef vaccinating theory - Cattle

If your cattle were not castrated and dehorned and handled only twice a
year they would be the same! If that is the case I would not buy them unless there was a deep discount involved. To me the op described someone that gathered twice a year and sold calves.

agmantoo · #28 02/19/10, 09:39 AM

Lazy J

"For me the simple answer is co-mingling. If I purchase animals for other sources which have a different health status than yours, which are naive to, then the animals from your herd will become sick."

Where do you folks get all these preconceived ideas? I share a fence line with a now 300+ head headcount dairy farm. It is their access road that I see the rendering truck travel to pick up animals. These animals that are full of meds are the ones that are succumbing as their natural immune system is compromised.

linn · #29 02/19/10, 10:51 AM

Agmantoo, you say that cattle should be raised naturally. Do you feed hay in the winter? Do you furnish your cattle with grain, salt and minerals? If so, they are being raised under unatural conditions. Cattle in the wild have to find their own forage, it is not furnished. My point is that the minute man contains any animal in one area, it is in an unatural environment, therefore more steps have to be taken to keep the animal healthy. I don't think any of us have preconceived notions. Many people do not own enough land for rotational grazing, therefore they have to worm their animals. When animals share a fence line they are susceptible to disease and lice etc. from the animals on the other side of the fence.
Animals may build up an immunity to a certain disease, but can become carriers as in the case of Texas fever. I would not want to bring a carrier into my herd.
This is just my opinion and I hope I have stated it in a reasonable, nonconfrontational manner.

agmantoo · #30 02/19/10, 04:08 PM

linn,
May I suggest you read the sticky above on rotational grazing and you will have a better understanding as to my involvement regarding cattle. If a person has enough land to justify owning a cow or two they probably should be able to do some rotational grazing. I worked very successfully with a lady in Oregon that has managed to reduce her costs and dependence of purchased feed while increasing her headcount even though she is on very limited land. She was committed to becoming more independent and open minded to accepting change. You are welcome to visit my place and see for yourself.

linn · #31 02/19/10, 05:16 PM

I am glad to hear that you were able to assist the lady in Oregon. I have a fair idea of what rotational grazing consists of. Thanks anyway for the invite. I would love to visit your place, but I don't even know where you live, and unless it is close to NW, MO I will have to pass.

SusyTX · #32 02/20/10, 08:15 PM

agmantoo,
Do you vaccinate for tetanus when banding? I'm hearing from a good number of people who raise cattle just for themselves/family that they don't vaccinate either, not even for tetanus at banding. None have had any occurrences of tetanus. We know of several good-sized producers who have also stopped vaccinating...they rotationally graze and supplement with hay when necessary, provide minerals/salt, and use apple cider vinegar in piped in well water for worm control, that's it....and they have beautiful, healthy cattle and have not lost any animals to diseases normally vaccinated against.

agmantoo · #33 02/20/10, 09:26 PM

I do not do any injections. I have no medications on hand other than an outdated bottle of scour treatment that expired in '06. I no longer worm either. I just remembered...I have a spray can of wound coat that I sometimes spray on the ear tags, mostly in fly season, prior to inserting the tags.

SusyTX · #34 02/21/10, 08:48 AM

Excellent, thank you!! We have not vaccinated either, have been researching the tetanus/banding issue for upcoming calving and also lean toward not vaccinating for tetanus. We tried the apple cider vinegar in water just as a precaution, but it didn't go over well so we are just leaving well enough alone until their health says otherwise. Perhaps it's our land, perhaps our methods, perhaps luck, or perhaps a combination of all three, but our cattle are doing very well. We do use No Fly Oil-Base for fly season (it's pricey), and for winter lice dust affected areas with diatomaceous earth, but that's it. Oh, and a spray of hydrogen peroxide for the occasional scratch, especially during fly season.

copperhead46 · #35 02/21/10, 01:22 PM

I have just about move completely to the "leave em alone" way of handling cattle. I do vaccinate when I wean ,(7 way shot) but thats about it. I do use a wormer in the spring, because I have my cows pretty much dry lotted for the winter and I know that they are probably passing around the worms. Once the grass comes on, I move them pretty often so that nature takes care of the worms. I think that survival of the fittest is still the law of the land, and will make a stronger animal in the end.
P.J.

Welshmom · #36 02/21/10, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Welshmom,
Above I posted that I follow a similar regimen. Therefore your comment of not buying any cattle concerns me. What do you see wrong with these animals to create such an attitude?

I'm sorry to have posted and not responded for a while - I was out of town at a farming conference, and had very little web time/access.

I see nothing at all wrong with Agman's cattle. He is rightfully proud of his cattle.
From the [B]owner's perspective, that is the way to own and maintain cattle healthfully.

However, from the buyer's perspective, it looks a little different, as some posters here have also mentioned. I have bought cattle from individuals and through sale barns. The minute you stress that calf/stocker/cow, you challenge her immune system. The minute they go inside a trailer, they are being exposed to foreign and novel viral and bacterial loads. If they go through a sale barn, it goes up exponentially. If those cattle have not had ANY vaccinations given at least two weeks before shipping to me, the chances that my newly purchased cattle are going to get sick on me is very high, in my experience.

Add to that the fact that the original poster's neighbors' cattle almost never see a human being, the stress of moving on those cattle will be very very high. They are not castrated or dehorned? Now that is something that I will have to take care of at my place, and I will be dealing with wild cattle. It is dangerous, an extra expense, a hazard to the cattle, an extra stress on them, and it takes extra time and hands to do.

I have bought cattle these ways, and had to deal with treating/vaccinating/dehorning/tagging, etc. It can cut into any profit I hope to make. When I buy stockers or other catltle, I want to know they have been vaccinated and worked (castrated, wormed, etc.) at least two weeks ahead, are healed up from any banding or dehorning (I prefer polled animals when I can find them), and are generally not going to be a rodeo followed by a trainwreck when I get them home. So I like cattle that are not spooked by people. That's just me.

I hope I haven't offended anyone, it's just my experience as a buyer, and it may be helpful for those who sell animals to understand what buyers are looking for. It may be different out west, but here, unworked, raw cattle are deeply discounted for those reasons.

**Ross** · #37 02/22/10, 09:31 PM

We were in cattle for 15 years and tried the hands off approach. Got tired of the problems and just breaking even so we moved to sheep. Through the ups and downs of sheep I can look back (and ahead) to the cattle and wouldn't miss a vacination for any of them. Cheap cheap cheap insurance.

agmantoo · #38 02/22/10, 10:56 PM

Ross
I have a closed herd and I have no cattle problems and as a low cost producer I make a nice profit. I am not adverse to preconditioning the feeder calves but it would not make 5 cents difference in the income. If I were to get compensated for the expenses, time and complications I would would probably vaccinate. I only band because I do not want a bunch of bull calves running around grunting and aggravating the other animals. I do sell mostly black hides as I get a premium for them. As it is, there is a middleman business following the procurement of feeder calves sold where I market the calves. Most of the buyers contract for all calves purchased to be held prior to shipment and the calves are all treated or retreated prior to shipment.

**Ross** · #39 02/23/10, 07:48 AM

I'm not being critical I'm just saying 30 cents worth of vaccine is not going to wreck any profit and it might just make you some. What mostly makes or breaks you year to year is marketing, but the more you load the better your odds of getting a better cheque. Not always but usually. Paracidic losses are alot less noticable in cattle but between worming and vacinations you should add a few pounds per calf (removing avoidable deaths really adds pounds!!) I can't beleive a $30 bottle of Ivomec (clone) or a $40 bottle of Tasvax 8 is going to ruin your accounting as a low cost producer! Time could be a factor but pour on and a needle only needs a basic chute.
Whatever works for you but lets not make the task sound too onerous because its not.

coso · #40 02/23/10, 03:52 PM

Calves that are not castrated when they go to the sale barn here usually bring about .10 cents a lb less then calves that are. If you have ever lost calves to black leg you will start vaccinating or go broke. I had three die one year before I figured it out and no I wasn't graining. Just 5-600 lb calves on grass. I only have about 20 head of cows so that hurts big time. Same thing with vibrio or lepto. Cost can add up fast when they keep rebreeding.This happened to my dad about fifteen years ago or so. Never had tetanus in cows but I have seen it in goats, and it is not a pleasant way to die. If you are in the business long enough something will happen. Just my experience in the last 40 years.