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how to check freemartin status?
The babies are growing horns.........
No big deal right~ except for those that don't know 5 months ago I bought 4 bottle babies~ two bulls (steers now) and two heifers. I THOUGHT I asked all the right questions but very shortly after I got them home I discovered that asking questions doesn't necessarily get you HONEST answers. The calves were younger than I thought, not the breeding I thought (the man told me dairy/beef cross but their pics say holstien/jersey to the folks here) AND they were sick. Really sick. It was quite the battle to keep all 4 alive and I'm pretty proud of them. BUT~ One of the questions I asked specifically was "Are they polled" and he said "Yes". I didn't want cows with horns~ I've never kept cattle before and I was trying to limit the ways I could be injured through ignorance. Well~ they are 5 months old now.......and no doubt......they all 4 are growing horns. Another question I specifically asked was "Are they freemartins" and he said "No and they were tubed just to be sure". Well.......shortly after I realized how very sick they were and we were at the vet every other day getting another med or more advice I asked about tubing the heifers to double check and the VET said they were too small for that. So I've been kind of just hoping and waiting till they were bigger.............. They are bigger now~ and I have even more evidence that the seller just told me whatever he thought I wanted to hear to get my money........... And I'm terribly attached to the girls and really want them to really be breedable heifers............ When are they big enough to tube? Is tubing the most effective way of checking? I read about this blood test thing but I'm afraid to try to draw blood............... Someone want to come check my little girls for me? Or at least tell me what to do now before I get anymore attached or put anymore work into taming them into the fine friendly cows I'm wanting to have? This man had 6 or 7 heifers there and a lot of bull calves......what are the chances that all the heifers he had there were freemartins and mine are too? |
See if they have abnormally long hair growing around the lady parts, even at birth.
See if the urine stream pulses when it comes out. If you have both, they are probably freemartins. |
Ed is correct, and sometimes they just plain look differnt back there. I think it is so bad that people take advantage of one another. Hope your heifers are ok, maybe they just have horns.That would be an easier fix. Thanks Marc
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Cheryl, sorry to say but the girl needed to be freemartin probed from 1-30 days old. I have used a test tube. The auction I visit uses a probe on every heifer for sale. Buyer witness the procedure. Anyway a blood test is the only option you have left, that or time....I'd have a Vet draw the blood and submit for testing...Sure wish you asked this question five months ago....Topside
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well.........
Now I'm even more frustrated. I DID ask my vet 5 months ago and he said they were too small to tube then.......... |
My vet said to be sure, you need to do an internal exam (in my case - he does) after six months of age at least. Tubing that early isn't always reliable.
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Cheryl, where are you located? If your not too far I can come and take a look or maybe help you draw blood...
I know how much work you have put into these guys.... Just let me know if I can help in any way... Justin |
The tube is 1000% if it does not go in they are a freemartin
the Tube is not used or should be used to prove THEY ARE A BREEDER Even the blood test will tell you IF she is a freemartin but IT will not tell you she will breed even at 2 years old and have 50 vets stick there hand in there....they will miss if a cow will bred...that takes a bull take 100 heifers of any bred all passed by vets , blood tested and only about 98 % will breed ps ask your vet if he has ever heard of tubing a calf I bet he has not |
Myerfarm raises 90 plus bottle heifers per year so he's one great source of info..Topside
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I looked this morning and the girls do have very long hair hanging down from their vulvas. Longer than normal? I have no clue.
Justin~ I'm in Falkville~ about 60 miles north of Birmingham on the 65. Thanks for the offer. We should meet up and do BBQ sometime! But I don't want to make you come out here and do work for me. This is something I should learn how to do. But definately BBQ if your ever in the area! Meanwhile~ I'm going to call my vet this morning and ask about drawing blood to be sent off. As Myerfarm pointed out it won't tell me if they will be breeders or not but it will tell me if they are freemartins at least and I'm very worried that they are. My vet is really a very nice guy and I know I can get him to show me how to do the blood draw so I'll know how to do it next time (or for my goats so I can consider doing those tests). Apparently he did not know about probing young calves......but you can bet I'll tell him and about the tool Topside showed us as well. Thanks everyone. I'm pretty worried about this~ I've put a lot of work into turning the girls into pets so they would be the cows I want in a few years. If they are freemartins..........my next step may be to figure out how to sue the guy who sold them to me and told me they were not. |
Cheryl if the seller has one honest bone in his body then he's sold you non-breeders for $40-80 just guessing. If the same honest seller sold you the heifers for $150-$250 then you should feel they are intact and breedable. This is providing the seller is honest. Simply put only you know what you paid for the girls. Bottom line if you paid less than $80 for each for them you bought freemartins, I'm positive about that, without a blood test. However getting a blood sample will eliminate all doubt....Topside
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On a positive note: At the local dairy auction only 1%-2% of all calves sold are freemartins. 2 out of 100 heifers. So maybe this percentage has given you some hope..Topside
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Cheryl,
Even with the worst possible luck, I doubt they are BOTH freemartins...:) It is a good idea to be confident at taking blood samples, at any rate. Try not too worry too much. |
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I know for sure I paid $300 each and GOT very young (maybe a week or two on three of them~ one of the heifers was probably not even a weeks old) SICK, NOT POLLED, most likely to two dairy breed cross heifers that I'm now worried may also be freemartins. For anyone else considering calves I bought them from a man on 48 Creek Rd in Waynesboro TN. The info about how rare they are does make me feel a bit better. Thank you. |
Definitely no expert here but we have a few cows. I would be surprised if you got two free martins unless the seller really had lots of calves to sell. If aren't sure what a normal heifer's vulva looks like, it may be difficult to figure out what looks abnormal. Typically on a breeding heifer there are some longer hairs that come down but things look fairly smooth. Bushy, coarse hair, extra hairy or some protrusion are good signs of free martins. Don't know what you would enter in to see pics of normal looking heifers but I know there are some pics out there that show free martins. I guess like most here suggest, have someone help you with the blood test to put your mind at ease. Horns are easily burned when done early and I would recommend it. Don't forget what size of animal you may end up with if that makes any difference in keeping them but personality is more important to me than breed.
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Just spoke with the vet~ says drawing the blood and knocking off the horns no problem but he doesn't know where to send the blood. I'm searching for a local lab now~ I see UC Davis does it for $50 each and Genetic visions at $25 each. neither is local~ I'm hunting for a closer one and then I'll load up the girls. I don't think I'll pay to have the horns knocked off the boys. Once I know how maybe I'll do it or I'll leave them on since they are destined to be dinner anyway.
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Most states have labs, how about Auburn U.
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Auburn has a lab but they don't seem to do genetic testing. I called Genetic Visions and they said drawing it on a Friday and sending it USPS properly wrapped was no problem. The blood does not have to be refrigerated. I printed the lab forms and got the trailer rigged up. On my way out now to load up the girls. Vet says he'll teach me how to draw the blood and how to knock the horns off the girls. Useful knowledge I should have for both the cows and the goats so I don't have a problem paying for the lesson. Genetic visions only charges $25 each for the freemartin tests and it will take aprox 10 days for results...............
So off I go~ wish me luck! |
Let us know how everything works out. I am interested in the tubing idea as we bought twins and one of the pair is a heifer. I know that the odds are in favor of her being a freemartin, but would like to know for sure.
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wishing you luck
tjm |
It's done~ and I really needed the good luck wishes. Wow. The drawing the blood was nothing~ simple~ I'm sure I could do it myself no problem. The blood is on it's way to Genetic Visions now~ I'll let y'all know when I get the results.
The removing the horns........... OH MY GOD THAT WAS NOT WHAT I EXPECTED I was anticipating a hot iron~ a little burning and bawling............ Nope~ He locked them into a head and body trap~ shot lidacane into their heads (THANK GOD he did that) and came at them with a medieval torture device that looked like two razor lipped cups with long handles. He clamped that on their heads and CUT down the to skull! Blood shot out......not seeped.......not poured.....SHOT IN ARCS out of their poor heads. The girls screamed, bawled, threw themselves down in the contraption rolled their eyes into the backs of their heads and looked DEAD while foam poured out of their mouths. The vet said it's worse with "Pets" they make a bigger stink and are more dramatic about it. The girls certainly were dramatic!! The vet said something about me possibly being too softhearted to raise my own meat so I explained to him that I butcher my own chickens and goats on my front porch.............but I do the dead FAST and there is NO SCREAMING or SHOOTING ARCS of blood! The girls look bad. The vet said NOT to wash it. He told me several times (guess it was obvious how very badly I wanted to clean them up) only to spray them with some fly spray to keep the fly's out.......then HE sprayed them with fly spray and told me not to mess with the wounds................ http://thereddragonsden.com/images/H...sept%20009.jpg http://thereddragonsden.com/images/H...9sep%20002.jpg I wonder if the girls will ever forgive me? |
They will forgive you dont worry :) Yup it looks gross BUT you should see it on a full grown cow...ewww We had an old gal rip one of her horns about half way off. it was the most horrifying thing I have ever seen ( insert ralphing icon) and i am about as non- ruffleable as a gal can get. Just when you think working with cows can't get any more traumatizing.....
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Gotta wonder what that feels like after the pain meds wear off.
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Looked and sounded like it hurt WHILE the pain meds were in effect. Now the girls won't come up out of the woods to me. They are standing down there looking like "try to make me" when I call. This evening when I put the boys back in with them and the boys show them that coming to me still gets you your grain maybe the forgiveness will start!
NO WAY I'm ever doing that myself! Vet only charged me $10 each to do it..........and it was and certainly will always be worth MORE than $10 for me to NOT do that! |
maybe it is just the picture but those EARS look a lot bigger then they should if out of 2 dairy breeds
looks like he did a great job to me tjm just one more thought on the freemartin probe thats why it is called a freemartin probe and not a breedable probe it will tell you real quick if they have a short uterious and will never bred before you put all that money into them then find out when they are 400 lbs but the probe if it goes in does not mean they will bred just not a short uterious |
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As far as the ear thing~ like I said~ I bought them as Dairy/beef cross~ but people here told me they looked to be holstien/jersey cross. Now one of the steers obviously is holstien or holstien cross........but the other three all look pretty much alike. Bossy does have some white across her belly~ but bessie and burger do not. Here is a pic of them when I'd had them about two weeks (thats *edit~ oops*....I think thats Burger the steer in this pic I'm feeding) http://thereddragonsden.com/images/H...pring09_15.jpg And here is a more recent pic of them from Aug 15th (Thats Bossie in blue, Bessie in red, Burger in green, Sofa in purple) http://thereddragonsden.com/images/H...cows%20002.jpg |
must be color blind my picture has 2 green halters
The one you are feeding if it has horns is a Jersey/ Holstien cross for sure the two girls must just have big Holstien ears on jersey heads the one in the center front and front next to fence one of them must be same as one you are feeding looks like they might. have a little something else in there because they are so fat....but are same condition as the holstien color in back...so you must be feed them THE GOOD STUFF |
Turn em around and take some pictures. We can guess if they are freemartins before you get the tests back.
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agree yes let us guess
need picture of udder being able to see teats and rear female parts in same shot if you can with tail not in the way |
Cheryl, if you ever need disbudding training I'd be glad to help...Goat kids and calves are my specialty, no blood that's a promise...Just PM me, I'd be glad to teach you...Topside
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Argh, dehorning. I would rather do almost anything else. It is so much easier to disbud them with the iron when they are really little. It sounds like you had a heckuva day!
How long til the blood work is done? Cheryl, you are doing a great job with these cows, even though they may not appreciate you right now... :) I agree with not washing the heads on them, just be SURE no flies lay any eggs there... |
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Actually, that's not true: Twinning runs 5% or higher (ran about 10% on this farm, for example,which is way high), so you'd expect half heifers and then of course only bull/heifer twins are the ones with affected heifers. BUT, dairy farmers keep their heifer calves a good share of the time, and they ALMOST NEVER raise heifers from bull/heifer twins. So the chance of buying a freemartin at the sales barn is quite high. If you see a small heifer calf at a sale I'd say the odds of it being a freemartin are in the range of 25-35%. The only heifer I'd buy at a sale would be the 90-100 pounders with dried, attached umbilical cord, so you could be reasonably sure it wasn't a twin. Jennifer |
I'll get someone to hold them tomorrow so we can get some pics of their backsides. No way they are gonna let me do it by myself~ they've made it clear I'm the bad guy right now. Tempted them to eat a little cracked corn from my hand......but I may NOT scratch the cow or attempt to be affectionate.......they stomp away and look at me suspiciously when I call them "Come on Babies"........maybe I shouldn't have used that to call them into the chute. But they were tempted by the grain so I'm sure we'll make friends again if I keep plenty of grain in my pockets!
Topside~ it would be great to learn disbudding sometime. Thats what I thought I was going to learn today~ but it was actual dehorning. The vet warned me it could be gruesome and I told him no problem I'm not easily grossed out.........but the screaming and bleeding did freak me out a LOT more than I would have guessed.....and I don't ever want to do that again. I can and have butchered and while I certainly do not enjoy it.......it does not bother me as much as what I helped the vet do today. I know it's a good thing......but it felt like cruelty. The blood tests take an average of ten days from the time they get the samples. They won't get them until Monday or Tuesday~ so approx 10 days from then. I'll be sure to update when I get the results. |
I think the freemartin thing goes by sale barns
a sale in Louisana had a 3 % freemartins and all the calfs [ bought at 3 days old and tubed ] sold as good ones thats over 300 calfs all were good [ checked by a vet at 400 pounds ] a sale in Texas had a 8% freemartins... have bought 150 calfs from there only sold 50..... all 50 passed by the vet.........when I saw how the guy checked them I bought 3 of the freemartins for $25 to $45 have not sold them yet so I will see if they pass the test of a vet... he checked all size calfs the same way jersey or holstien |
Cheryl, I'm going to poke my oar in now and tell you to calm down and wait for the blood tests to come back - and, like Topside, to take a positive view. The chances of these calves being freemartins isn't beyond the realms of possibility but unlikely. If they are, it's no great loss, they will have to go as beef and you start again with a little more knowledge under your belt:D
I can almost guarantee that all of these calves are Jersey/Friesian crosses - the colour, large ears (which they will grow into) and light bone structure give it away. I milk one that is jet black but I know for a fact that she is a Jersey/Friesian. They are a popular dairy cross over here and I like them too and in most cases one gets the benefits of both breeds - higher milk yield of the Friesian, higher cream content of the Jersey, the Jersey nature and a cow that is often mid-way between both in terms of size. Your vet appears to have done an excellent dehorning job and he is quite right - DO NOT touch them or be tempted to clean them up in any way. The horn opens up into the sinus and if water, including rain, gets down into there you could end up with a very sick animal on your hands. Most people consider me a little eccentric because all my cows have their horns and that's the way I prefer it - particularly when I watch them use their horns to give themselves a scratch or toss their hay around to open it up. And no, they don't gore each other or me. Cheers, Ronnie |
I got the best pics I could. It was raining and the girls were not exactly thrilled to have me messing with them......and then trying to move the tail for the pic caused the cow to move!!! I did my best though~ so here are the porn shots of the cows........I've had both for 5 months so my guess would be that they are between 5 and 6 months old......Bessie was smaller and still had her umbilical cord attached ~ the Vet guessed Bessie at about a week and Bossy at about 2 to 3 weeks old when I purchased them 5 months ago~ . The DNA tests to determine freemartin for sure or not should be in in about 11 to 12 days from now..............
Bessie http://thereddragonsden.com/images/H...Feb/bessy1.jpg http://thereddragonsden.com/images/H...Feb/bessy2.jpg Bossie http://thereddragonsden.com/images/H...Feb/bossy1.jpg http://thereddragonsden.com/images/H...Feb/bossy2.jpg The dehorning yesterday.......I'm guessing the reason I am not to touch or attempt to clean them is so the snot can drain out of the sinus cavity we dug into......and thats why it looks like there is snot draining out the holes in their heads right? I've still not touched their heads.......but it's driving me crazy. Looks like it needs to be cleaned~ especially with the snot draining out......but I've not touched as I was told. |
Guess I am the first to GUESS and i will go with
100% the first calf is a good one nice udder 75 % the second calf is a good one love the udder but DO NOT LIKE THE LONG HAIRS the teats on both look good afreemartin will usually have what I call BULL TEATS they will be almost flat and some are I have to keep in mind your calfs are real FAT and that will make there udders and teats bigger but if they looked like that before you fatin them up i would think both are ok most freemartins will be smooth and have the flat teats ....with very little wrankles in the udder yes I would have bought both... best of luck thats my 2 cents hope I am close tjm |
You think they may be too fat? I want them to have good condition but not too fat. I was giving them a bucket of 12% all stock grain morning and evening~ about 10 pounds a bucket full until recently. A couple weeks ago I cut them down to 1 about 10 pound bucket in the evening. They have a wooded pasture they are in most of the time cuz thats where the barn is~ but they've eaten everything they like in there so I've been moving them for several hours a day every day that it's not raining to either the old pig pen (they LOVE that!) or to some of our "lawn" areas where they act like they've been starved and desperately waiting for the move every morning.
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I think they are going to go into winter with good conditioning. They are not TOO fat, yet. Soon enough they will be eating mostly dry feed and plus they are still growing really fast. They look sleek and healthy. Don't be suprised if they lose a bit of condition over the next 2 weeks while they heal from their surgery.
I wont venture a guess about their freemartin status, I can wait for the lab. :) |
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