opinions on 2 Lowline bulls pleae
 

My AI tech has semen from Quartermaster and Wanamarra Findon Royale.
What can anyone tell me about either of these bulls. I am looking at reducing the size on my 3/4 Jersey 1/4 Holstein to work on MIG beef eventually. I am starting with what I have because I want my milk cow, but want to raise beef as well. I have already started MIG to a degree here, but it is in its infancy and I am just getting acquainted with the routine. So far I really like how well I am able to graze my land and how much less hay I am feeding...thanks Agmantoo!!
I don't know much about these 2 bulls, so any info would be greatly appreciated.
Trisha

Here's a page with some info on Wanamara Findon Royale:

http://www.wanamaralowline.com.au/sires.htm
http://www.wanamaralowline.com.au/Im...ndonroyale.jpg

Here's a picture of Quarter master, couldn't find any info on him other than he's a champion and fairly popular:

http://www.minicattlecountry.com/Qua...ster-color.jpg

It's hard to tell from a picture, and how the bull looks doesn't necessarily tell you how their offspring will do. That said, of the two I like the looks of Quartermaster better.

I'm not an expert on beef cattle but I agree with your choice. Hard to tell from pics but he looks a longer with a heavier muscled rump. Based on what I can see he's the one I would use. Maybe some of the beef ranchers will chime in here.

Thank you Armydoc! I really appreciate the photos and link! I agree. I like the body size on Quartermaster better than the other. He looks much deeper in the chest as well as being longer.
I look forward to other opinions here as well.
Thanks guys.
Trisha

Looks can be very deceiving in a picture. When I was AI'ing I picked out a bull based on his looks and scores, info the bull book had listed him as a frame 5. I talked to the Select Sires guy who I get semen from and he said he was a frame 5, but was a big 5. He suggested another bull with a frame 5 and I was able to reduce the size of my calves quite a bit with him.

As your AI tech if he has personally seen either bull and some of his off spring to get a better idea which will work for you.

Bobg

Trisha in WA
This is not an answer to your question. The direction you go with your cattle is yours. I am just offering a suggestion or two. IMO, both of the animals pictured are grain fed. Neither has enough gut to make it on forage alone and particularly on paddocks that are rotationally grazed for an extended part of the year. You can order semen directly from Pharo Cattle Company http://www.pharocattle.com/Semen-Source-2009/angus.htm and get your tech to administer. I suggest that you look in the frame 3 sires and get a polled animals semen. The semen selected needs to take the horns off, lower the milk capacity and have calving ease to move in the direction you indicated you want to go. Pharo's bulls will come closer to accomplishing this than any bulls that I am aware of. Good Luck.

EXCELLENT point Agman. I had not thought about the fact these guys are very likely grain fed. Thank you!
Can you give me some suggestions on Pharo bulls that would be more suitable? I remember reading something in the grazing thread about Pharo bulls...I will go back and look at that again.
As you mentioned, polled is important to me too. Since I have a cow that had horns, I will need to breed her to polled bull. I read that only one needed the polled gene to make the offspring polled. Is that correct or is there a percentage of times when the calf is not polled?
Thanks so much everyone. I really appreciate the help.
Trisha

I suggest you call Pharo cattle and tell them what you want to accomplish. I would consider Magua or Machine. Neither have everything you need but they come closest.

Excellent! Thank you. I will give them a call. I see the 2 bulls you are referring to on the PCC site. Very nice looking bulls.
Right now, close is good enough. This will be a very long process to get a small herd of good grazers especially since I am starting with a dairy cow LOL but I have all the time in the world. We won't be moved to more land until next year, so I can and need to take it slow for now. It's a long term goal that has to start somewhere.
Thank you.
Trisha

Before someone is confused, I want to confirm that Lowlines are 100% angus and 100% polled. There are many farms using lowlines or lowline bull to cross for grass fed beef. Even Pharo sells lowline semen he says "they are the real deal".
We just bought a son of Doc Holiday that is looking very well. The breeder said that he was feeding soybean hulls before his spring sale but this bull has been on only pasture for a few months or so and looks very solid . his sire has semen that is only 20$. Doc has very very high marbling scores. We hope that helps alot with our grass fed beef.

You can see our new 23 month old bull on our website.

My lowline bull has Quartermaster several times in his ancestry, and he does just fine on grass and hay only. He looks a bit plump, to tell the truth. He also looks more like Wanamara than Quartermaster. Weird.

Maria, I would love to see pictures of your bull if you have some! Great to hear he does well on grass and hay. Thanks for your input!

You would want to also check with Pharo on what types of plants they have in their pastures. What does well in one area may not do very well in another, due to different climates. Most successful cattlemen will tell you to only buy a bull that was raised within a 100 mile radius as the climate change are likely to be small. But, that being said, it is not always true, but a good place to start.

Bobg

This is right after we got him last year, as a two year old. He's a bit heavier now. Last year's hay wasn't the best- either too old or slightly rained on before baling, but he had all he could eat and stayed in great condition.

We kept him in with the cows for most of the year and only took him out a couple of weeks after they calved. He's having to stay by himself for a couple of months now, and is quite unhappy about it- but never shows any aggression towards people or even our dogs. He's quite mild tempered. I've only got 2 cows and 2 heifers so it's not much of a herd- but his calves this year are beautiful. We didn't weigh them, but both cows had no trouble with delivery- one cow is a Dexter and the other is a Pineywoods. The two heifers are last years calves, so I'm really hoping his calves will be small enough for them. They should be OK, since their mamas were.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/07...ws/flexing.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/07...headturned.jpg

edit: He's registered as a 3/4 Lowline. The rest of him is mostly Angus, but there's a tiny fraction in there of some other breed I can't remember, except that it's on the rare breeds conservancy list, so that's kind of cool. And probably why his head isn't quite so *Angus* as most.

edit 2: He's so black that details wouldn't show up on photographs. I had to fiddle with these in Photoshop last year- playing with contrast and stuff, just so one could actually SEE him. He actually is as black as those photos in the first post, but I can't get a camera to make him look like that, and still see him.

Agmantoo, can you explain how you can tell these are grain fed?

My impression is that lowlines can look grain fed because they are less growthy than the standard breeds, needing less energy, therefore they can get fat on grass alone. Don't know if they need as much gut if energy needs are less.

I have a mostly lowline steer who is fat on just a few hours daily of grazing when I tie him out. His mom (lowlineXjersey) is in good condition despite milking over 12 months straight - still giving a gallon and a half daily. That on limit-fed grass and just a quart of grain daily. Had to start drying her up a few days ago for calving next month and I wish her production had been lower - she's out there leaking milk.

Maria, very nice looking bull. WStevenL, that Doc Holliday guy is very thick - hope his son looks like him. Pharo used to have semen from Doc and commented that his heart girth exceeded that of many standard bulls.

I'm coming in a little late in this discussion, but I wanted to make a couple of points.

I agree with agmantoo that Pharo Cattle Company has the best grass-fed genetics available, and they are honest, reputable folks. They are based in Eastern Colorado but sell their cattle all over the U.S., and they do very well anywhere. They do suggest that if you live in South that you buy a bull in the fall to give it a little time to adjust to the heat and humidity.

Also, on the first bulls pictured above, someone mentioned that Quartermaster has heavier hind quarters than the other bull. I've never researched either of these bulls, so don't know much about them. For one, I don't particularly care for show cattle. More often than not they are more "show" than "go". What they do in a show ring does not always equate to what they'll do in the pasture. But, I digress. The point I was making was in reference to the pictures. Quartermaster obviously looks much longer with heavier hindquarters than Wanamara. In the pictures Quartermaster is a much more mature bull than Wanamara. He's certainly going to appear heavier and more muscled than a less mature bull. Just a thought to keep in mind when viewing pictures of bulls. Take into account the age of each bull at the time of the pictures.

This is what the AI tech had to say:
"The first bull is Quartermaster. He was the first lowline bull imported from Australia in 1998. I have seen him at the World Dairy Expo in Madison, Wisconsin and he is very thick and heavily muscled. The second bull I have in inventory is Wanamarra Findon Royale. He was the National Champion Lowline Bull in Australia in 2007 and 2008. He won every major show in those two years also."

Bob, I am wondering what you run over there. I am currently in western WA, but will be relocating to NE WA. Realizing the climate in the north is a little different than where you are, the differences are much less severe than from here to there. What can you tell me about keeping cattle over there?
Thank you!
Trisha

I own a Quartermast heifer that is out of Holstein X British white cow. Quartermaster is known to bring down the size in calves quickly so I think that he could do what you are wanting. Some questions have come up about grass finished, my heifer is very hardy and does well on grass or grass hay. When fed alfalfa or grain she blimps out quickly. I also know of a Machine daughter that is out of Hereford cow, that heifer does very well on grass too but she is a larger framed animal so I am not certain that he will bring the size down like you want. I have not seen any Doc Holiday animals but I know he is a nice looking bull and has a good reputation. We have used Findon on a heifer and are waiting to see what he can do.

Lowline Bulls
 

Hi Trish,
I bred Wanamara Findon Royale & sold him to the USA in 2007 at 20 months old. I have been breeding these cattle for 14 years & FindonR was always a very well muscled young bull. I haven't seen photos of him since he left here but I have a full brother to him that is now over 2 years old & he is an exceptional bull too. FindonR has produced lovely, well muscled calves & I have sold a daughter of his this year to the USA too.
I would have no problems with breeding him to your cows as his calves are always small but grow out well.
Quartermaster was an old Australian bull but there aren't any of his progeny left here so I can't tell you about him.
Having read some of the previous observations, I have to add that the photos posted earlier show FindonR & Quartermaster at very different ages. The photo of FindonR was taken at the 2007 Royal Sydney Show (his first show) when he was 17 months old. The Quartermaster was taken at the 1998 Royal Sydney Show when he was 3 years old.
I have a website if you would like to see my photos of Wanamara Findon Royale - www.wanamaralowline.com.au
Good luck with your AI's. I would be interested to know if you decide to use FindonR.
Julie in Vic

WOW! That's pretty exciting! That you bred the bull in AU that I am looking at here. Do you happen to have a height on him before you sold him?
This is going to be a very interesting cross. I am looking forward to seeing what we get. My cow's last calf seems very small still. I bought her bred to a Jersey, so the calf is 7/8 Jersey. My other calves here are Holstein steers, so it probably isn't a fair comparison LOL
But I do have to wonder if this cow is going to have small calves or if that was from the bull they used with her. I am soooo looking forward to seeing what we get!!!
Trisha

Hi Trisha,
I measured FindonR before he went into quarantine & he was 44ins (112cm) at the hip. His father, Findon is 117cm at the hip & his dam, Daphne is about 114cm. (Sorry I haven't converted these heights). As FindonR was only 20 months old when he left here he still had a lot of growing to do but I would expect him to be a little bit shorter than his sire but taller than his dam. His full brother, Guinness is as tall as his sire Findon, but is a different style of bull. I had a few Jerseys years ago & always put my Lowline bulls over then. They had lovely small calves that grew very quickly on the Jersey milk. I kept some of the Lowline/Jersey heifers & bred them with Lowlines for a few years until I had too many animals & had to sell all my cross breds during the drought.
Julie

update
 

Here's the bull I ended up using.
http://www.lazyglowline.com/herd/her...luey_large.jpg
I got to see this guy in person. Turns out their farm is only about 5 miles from me! FindonR now measures 51 inches which is much bigger that I want. Quartermaster is the right size, but this guy is really fantastic. I also LOVE the red...always have. I had convinced myself that black is what I had to have because of the market, but I direct market my beef. So, any color is basically fine. I also like the heat tolerance with the reds since we will be in a very hot climate soon.
Now I am anxiously waiting to see if she took and then the long wait begins LOL
Trisha