Norman's Horns?

I don't recall anyone saying that - any animal that much larger than you can hurt you of course. I've been clocked by milk cow's big heads when they swing it around to look or get rid of a fly. You learn to stay out of the way and watch for them to swing their heads. And sometimes you get clocked.
As for using the horns against other cows, rarely do cows hurt each other with horns. Things settle down fairly quickly with the horned cow getting the respect it deserves. The only real cow injury I've seen from horns was from a bull with horns defending his cows from a larger bull without horns.
What if you dehorn your cow and she gets weird like the cow I mentioned in my post? It almost acted brain damaged.
This is a new cow for you, yes? I would give it some time before I made a decision like that.

She is a new cow to me, but I'm not new to cows. One of my best Dexters got her stomach torn open by another Dexter who caught her with her horns and almost "gutted" her. I took them all in and had them de-horned. I usually have it done when they are weaned, but I have de-horned 3 years olds. I won't be using a saw and hot iron, I'll take her to the vet, but any cow that has horns, knows what she has, and knows how to use them. I know this is just a difference of opinion, but for me, no horns is the only way to go. I never worried too much about it when I just had beef cattle and the only handling of them was in a chute, but with cattle that I handle and work in close quarters with, I don't want any extra dangers.
P.J.

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given the oppurtunity, a cow will always take the wrong gate...Baxter Black
www.newdaydexters.com
Irish Dexter Cattle for sale..............

I had my Jersey cow dehorned at 4 years old, at first I thought her horns were cute But then I got one in the middle of my back, not so cute any more. I had the vet come out and put her right out, he then put a local freezing around the horns. He sawed them off and there was NO BLOOD, except where he cut the scalp around the horn base. He used my iron to tidy that up. He gave her the reversal drug she jumped up with a "What Just Happened" look and never missed a beat. The vet told me that knocking her out slows the heart beat, making the blood pressure drop and then putting the local freezing around the horns makes the blood flow to the horns stop. So when they are removed there is little to no blood. We sprayed the area with a antibiotic spray. I have caught her trying to use her horns to do things like scrach her back and she cannot figue out what happend to them My dehorning experience was a great one! I would do it again if I bought a adult! I use a dehorning iron on calves at about 2-3 months old. The vet sells me the local anastetic to freeze the area and for the most part they stand with their head in a bucket of grain while we burn the horns off!!

I would also suggest getting a angus bull over keeping a jersey bull. I have never met one but I have heard horible stories of them. My hubby used to work on a dairy farm and he raised up a Holstein bull. When he was butchered at 4 years old he was 1352 lbs of meat after hanging for 3 weeks!!! He was huge and dangerous! He would kill anyone that would get close to him.

Oakshire, I think MyCowLilly only has a couple cows, Norman and Lilly. No room for an Angus bull there, it'll be too much for her to look after when there's only a couple of animals and not a herd of 50. And it just won't be worth the hassle, she's going to be fixing fences more than she needs.

Don't tell me Angus bulls are less dangerous. ALL BULLS ARE DANGEROUS. My great grandpa was killed by an Angus bull. And when he gets a whiff of some cows in heat a mile away, he'd be outta there.

So MyCowLilly, keep norman and castrate him, and keep him for the freezer. I'm on the fence with dehorning Lilly though. It almost seemed like one of her horns were growing into her head, and may need to be cut.

Yes ... only the two cows. Nothing more. And we do have open range cows in the neighborhood frequently. Lilly's horns are not any where near her face ... and have been weighted to turn them down. Both horns have weights now, although the picture was take the day she threw one of the weights. I've taken a few nudges already, which is what spurred the whole conversation. She is used to the weights and is not trying to rub them off any more which is why I thought that maybe removing the horns by banding would be a sensible idea and not hard to achieve. She's used to me tightning the bolts on the weights.

I would be DELIGHTED to have AI done, but I just don't know anyone in the state that does it - not saying that there isn't anyone, just that nobody has replied to my ads... and I don't exactly get out much. And, I just can't afford to hire anyone that "claims" they know how... I want someone I can trust, but that also isn't going to cost me the life of my cow, or an arm and leg in the process! Just because Mike Rowe did it on "Dirty Jobs" doesn't mean every Tom, Dick or Harry should do it... know what I mean?

I would like to consider breeding her with a LOW LINE breed... as my acreage is limited and I would like to have a few more cows.

Also, I don't think Lilly has gone into any heat yet. At least not that I can tell. She will be two in October.

We're thinking castration for Norman is the best answer. We do know people with experience with that, so I'll hire them to come out and take care of that issue. He's a nice little guy, and the better he will behave for the longest amount of time, the happier we all will be.

If you were to breed her, and consider options besides lowline, would you breed her to a dairy breed or a beef breed? Jerseys are naturally easy calving, so a beef breed that would put more muscle on the calf for more freezer beef. BUT...there's nothing wrong with going lowline, nor breeding her to a dexter. If you can't get an AI tech to come out and breed her, you might have to send her to a farm that has a bull to breed her to, and have her there for a little while. The bull may not be lowline or dexter, but if he's something like an Angus, it just might be something you would have to go with to give a new calf, build up your herd and give you milk.

When Lilly goes into heat she'll act more agitated than normal, bellering, pacing the fenceline, and of course lil' Norman'll try to ride her. FYI, she cycles about every 21 days.

How about thinking about keeping a Dexter bull? We've never had any problem with them, the current one even has whopping big horns (now those boogers have HORNS.) I've spoken with lots of Dexter owners and have only heard about a couple of problems with the bulls ever, and supposedly that was with bulls closely related to the bull Lucifer. Our current bull is a Lucifer grandson but no issues, he just sorta ignores us. On a side note, he sure throws beautiful udders - the Lucifer line is sorta known for that.
You can sell a Dexter/Jersey heifer calf with no difficulty from what I understand too, maybe easier than a Jersey heifer.

For those of you whose vets will use any kind of deadening/sedation, you're lucky. The good ole boy vets around here just won't do it. "Sedation is risky, by the time it kicks in we could have it over with," etc, etc. Wouldn't be so against dehorning older cows if they would, I guess. It's just so awful without it.

P.J. sorry you had such a bad experience with that horned cow, as far as my experience that's unusual. It wouldn't take but one time for me to feel the same with a Dexter cow being worth 1,000 bucks though.

MycowLilly, Dexter bulls are very much more reasonably priced than the cows btw.

Okay, lemme ask this: why are people insisting about keeping a bull when she only has ONE cow?? It's a waste of money and time and energy to keep a bull for just ONE cow. It doesn't matter what breed that one bull has to be! Because ONE bull is best to be used for AT LEAST 20 cows!! MCL does not have 20 or 50 or 100 cows! So the best thing MCL could do is send Lilly to a local farm to get her bred, or get her AI'd.

I'm really not making any sense of why waste the time of telling Mycowlilly to get a bull when she doesn't need the hassle since she ONLY HAS ONE COW.

Please, let's just end it here.

Not sure why you care so much, but she planned to keep a bull in the first place, hence Norman.

I wouldn't be sending any cow to a dairy farm - or anyone else's farm at all for that matter - to get bred. The last two Jerseys we bought from dairy farms, a year apart and different farms, both had Johnes. One of our good Jerseys we'd had for years got infected when we put her on the same land but a YEAR later, and we had to get rid of her too.

mycowLilly, don't let her nudge you with her horns (I assume that's what you meant by "I've taken a few nudges") that's disrespectful and dangerous. Either scare her out of your space or bop her on the nose if she's persistent.

She said she was planning to get more cows, hasn't got a way to get her cow AI'd and didn't want just anyone trying to AI the cow for her. So, if she gets another cow and a good bull, I don't see the problem, plus she has the land to keep said animals. I started with one bull and two cows. From the way Mycowlilly talks, she is in a really isolated area, so she needs to take care of business the old fashioned way, just like a lot of us do.
Mycowlilly, have you called your local extension center?? they might be able to tell you is there is an AI tech in your area, also, call the closest large animal vet, he should know. Good luck with them, your Lilly is a really pretty cow.
P.J.

__________________
given the oppurtunity, a cow will always take the wrong gate...Baxter Black
www.newdaydexters.com
Irish Dexter Cattle for sale..............

Okay, fine. All I was trying to say that In MY Honest Opinion I think it just isn't worth the hassle to have a bull around to be breeding only one or two cows. No matter if she's in an isolated area, he still could pose a bit of a hassle if he smells some females in heat a ways away.

The reason I care is this: a bull is worth half of your breeding herd. He needs proper nutrition and care to remain in condition and remain fertile. His job is to service as many cows as he can, depending on his age. Keeping a bull to service only a couple cows out of the year just isn't worth it...in my opinion.

Now as the fact that you, copperhead and cliff disagree with me on that is your concern. We are entitled to our own opinions. But see, it sounded like she was only looking to breed Lilly, and not the other new cows she was thinking of purchasing in the future, which I obviously missed reading about. Touche. But I didn't see when she was going to get (aka buy) some new cattle, I just assumed she was going to build up her herd through producing daughters and granddaughters and great granddaughters from Lilly and build her herd thataway. Again, touche.


But my opinion still stands.

My Lilly is a rather smaller sized cow... so I've been concerned about breeding her with a male that is very large... as I don't want her to have any birthing issues. We were offered to have Lilly serviced by a ranch bull -- about 80 miles from me. It's by someone I've known for a long time, but I am worried to let her go where I can't be checking on her regularly. The ranch is RIGHT in the middle of town, and there is a 4 lane highway about 200 feet from the ranch gate. A few weeks ago I was down in the area, and was driving down the road, and ALL the cows were in the road!

Which also brought up the next issue... My Lilly was a 4H project gone bad. We aquired her from a dear friend, who had gotten Lilly as their 1st cow, for their daughter who was 12. Lilly was only a few months old... and after the husband (who is a cop) started playing with her wrestling her to the ground to get her belly rubbed, she scared the heck out of the daughter, when she wanted to "play". So, we took her home. I have ALWAYS adored cows from afar - and had friends who had milk cows. So Lilly has been a crash course for me. At any rate, I don't have papers on Lilly... and have been concerned about her getting absorbed into someone elses herd. So, I've applied for a brand. You should have heard the lady laugh at the branding inspector's office, when I called asking for direction on what I needed to do! I'm sure she smiled that day! So, I should be hearing from them soon to get our brand... I'm in the last 2 weeks of the "advertising" stage.

Due to her sheer size... I have not hesitated ONE BIT, to clobber her right in the nose the two times she's gotten a bit rough with me. She looked VERY suprised, but it's been about 6-8 months since that last happened. She's been very good with me since. I brush her and groom her when she eats so she is used to me handling her... and petting her. She loves it.

We want her to calf, we are looking forward to the milk (yes, I'm aware of all the work involved with that... thankfully, I have a stay home job)... and I'd like a few more cows around. I figure at worst, I can sell any offspring.. and at best, keep them here. We ARE very rural... the nearest vet is 89 miles away (one way), the nearest grocery store is 55 miles away... and the nearest feed store is 89 miles away. Most in this area don't even have power! We do, and phone, and DSL and everything else mostly normal - so YES, we have to pretty much take care of EVERYTHING ourselves. We have a small crew of animals, and several acres to work with. Lilly and Norm are not the only kids here... We have a siberian husky rescue of 9 huskies, a german shepherd, 3 cats, 4 geese, 1 baby turkey, a flock of chickens, a flock of ducks, and 2 baby sheep. Our farm is growing at any rate!

I think I'm going to call the vet in the morning, that I have worked with - to see what he knows about AI in the area. I may call the lady at the branding office too, and give her something else to laugh about!

Actually, Karin, you're right... I'm not really planning on "buying" new cows - except maybe to just change up the blood around here. I would like some Low Line or smaller breed (some have suggested Dexter) but am considering a cross with Lilly. I can only reasonably have 3-5 cows I think at any one time.

Now my next question, if Norman is castrated... will he be reasonable to keep until I need him for the freezer? I'm not in this for the money... and he's just a sweet dear right now. Without the hormones ... will he behave himself?

You probly could let him breed your heifer this spring and the cut him and be all right. If you want him to work early he won't. If you don't, well the 450 pound jersy bull calf my father in law missed in a bunch of calves bred thirty some heifers before he knew he was in the bunch.

How old is too old to have him castrated?

When he's around 2 years old.

Norman is a bit young to be breeding Lilly, as the youngest a bull that I've heard of can start to breed is around 7 months at the least. If you want, I'd sooner you cut him before he gets to this stage where he knows he's a bull. Unless of course you want to keep him to breed Lilly.

Without the hormones, yes he will, just so long as he still knows your the boss, just like you established with Lilly.

Jersey cows, annoyingly, can start coming in heat at 4 months of age. Jersey bulls have been known to breed at very young ages also, don't know what the lower age limit of that is without looking it up.

Dexters and Jersey/Dexter crosses also start coming in heat that early. Our beef breeds and Dexter/beef crosses do not.

For some reason, in a large herd situation our Dexter bull has never bred the youngsters.

We've had devastating news today... Norman has suddenly died! I found him this morning, barely breathing and completely unresponsive except that he would blink when I pet his face. He passed away in the last few minutes now.

Thank you all so much for all your kind help and information. I have a screaming headache, and have been crying since I found him early this morning.

He was perfectly fine last night, eating and pooping and the whole 9 yards... I was out with them for hours. This morning, he was gone. No spiders or snakes this time of year, and no sign of any trauma. We're thinking it was colic.

He hadn't had any corn or anything that would cause hot gasses... so I just don't even know.

The vet said he was too far gone to do much when I found him.

Lilly has been a mooing machine all morning. She was standing over him very protectively this morning and he had spit all over him, as she had been licking and licking him.... we moved him out of the corral (which was no easy trick) . . . and she wanted to follow us right out. She stayed by the gate for a long time, and now is standing by the dogs, and just bellowing. Poor thing... I'm surprised she's reacted so strongly too.

My father in law is flying in from CA today. I have so much work to do, and I just want to go back to bed.

I'm so sorry for your loss! Those calves can die from any causes, sometimes they just up and die for no apparent reason.

He had spit all over him? Sounds like he was in some sort of seizure and died from it...did your vet to a necropsy on him?

Again, I'm sorry for your loss.