Raw Milk Battle

IMHO The issue here never was raw vs. pasteurized.
IMHO, Government intrusion would come under unwarranted search and seizure. However your passions may rise or fall in Mr. Holt's behalf, he was in flagrant violation of existing laws.
Aye.... But there's the rub. The "one size fits all" approach only favors those with the deepest pockets, not necessarily the largest producers.

As for intent.... that's a slippery slope. There have been and always will be, Robber Barons, (Special Interest Groups) and politicians by complicity, who push for legislation that limits competition.

As for prevailing financially against big government/business, I see it as more of.... It ain't the size of the dog in the fight.... it's the size of the fight in the dog. No business, however large or small, has the right, in a free market economy, to demand special rights, exemptions or privileges, that would enable itself to gain market share under existing law, without first attempting to change existing law.
I cannot claim any personal knowledge nor relationship with Mr. Nolte. therefore I have no real insight as to his true intentions or motivations. As much as I may, or may not, feel that the actions of the PDA were excessive. Mr. Nolte at the end of the day, was still in violation of existing laws.
To echo your previous statement... Only time will tell..... Let's play devil's advocate for a moment...... Your neighbor put the cart before the horse, by growing apples before having the proper equipment in place to make them into cider. As they say.... Poor planning on your part, does not necessarily constitute an emergency on my part.

Let's be real...... Suppose that your neighbor was allowed to produce cider for public consumption without said equipment. Let's also suppose that someone was sickened by said cider. Do you for a moment think that the hordes now clamoring for a sip of his elixir, would not immediately do an about face and be calling for his blood?
There is a way.... And it is already available to you, your apple growing neighbor, as well as, Mr. Nolte. Educate and enlighten the dumbmasses of citiots and sheeple into seeing the long term effects of hamstringing start up competition. Then, petition, lobby and vote for legislation that is based on common sense.

(Self)righteous law breaking. is still, breaking the law....... Remember.... The difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist depends upon which side of the issue you are on.

Just sayin'

Especially a city person who isn't routinely exposed to pathogens while handling animals and manure, and whose immune system isn't ramped up to deal with such. Ditto the very young or old, and the folks with compromised immune systems, who are especially at risk for food-borne illnesses.

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Truer words were never spoken Thank You. What fits for one person doesn't mean ALL people can do the same thing the same way and have the same out come.. Many Can't. Period. Keep the raw stuff on your place and drink all you want, but don't let it out on a unsuspected public.

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In case you all have misinterpreted the original post. The purpose of this thread is not a Raw vs. Pasteurized debate.

Also I would like to point out that Ronnie was not advocating that everyone should drink raw milk, much less his. Besides.... The cost of refrigerated air freight from New Zealand, would make it rather prohibitive.

I just find it sad that there is little we do that isn't dangerous and requires government to watch out for us. We're all dumber and lazier because we all think the gov't will take care of us. All these inspections are just more bailouts. The citizens and consumers get to be lazy, and the government workers are provided jobs and all is well!

By the way, my daughter in college microbiology, grew quite the crop of bacteria from pasteurized milk. I bet that scares the you-know-what out of most of you.

When Cotton Picker writes: "During the course of this discussion There has been mention of milk quality as it relates to raw/pasteurized milk, outside the realm of the nutritional pros/cons of either. I believe that this discussion has merit, due to the fact that the wholesomeness, or lack thereof, is the premise that the PDA took with Mr. Nolte. Due to the fact that we are not privy to all of the goings on in Nolte vs.The PDA, it would do no harm to engage in civil discourse about milk borne illnesses and how best to avoid them."

He's on thin ice with the moderator's comment, "WARNING: If this thread goes into yet another raw milk vs pasteurized milk battle I will lock the thread. Keep the focus on the original thread." If we are to continue this debate, we need to shy away from our raw milk/processed milk biases.

Mr. Nolt may be a soft target. How many warnings did he ignore? No one had simpathy for the "Don't taze me, Bro" guy that just wouldn't shut up. If you are under-age, drunk and peeing in the park, plan on going to jail in handcuffs. Not a hard target there, either. Just another victimless crime.

My guess is, that now he's paid his fines, cleaned up his operation, that the Rosa Parks of raw milk products sat back down in the back of the bus. Otherwise, the antigovernment groups would be letting us know.

I'm generally in favor of educating the public as a way of getting laws changed. But to convince the majority of the general public that raw milk is the way to go just ain't right. In the first place, once you step away from your hobby farm buddies, you'll find that the general public doesn't want to hear about the evils of processed milk and are happy with how things are. Then you must face the difficult task of insuring consistantly clean milk on a larger scale.

Hi DJ in WA,

Thanks for the input. I'll take the liberty to add a few thoughts to yours.

David

That just goes to show that no system is idiot/corruption proof. Just because the processor jumped through all of the regulatory hoops, does not completely guarantee the purity and wholesomeness of the end product.

I saw several slips hanging in one Grade A dairy, in Vermont, selling fluid milk to a processor, warning them to get their bulk tank SCC (Leukocyte) down below 1,000,000 per milliliter. I worked on a nearby farm (About three months) that was running a tank average of 750,000.

To add some perspective to that. 200,000 SCC is considered normal. With 500,000 or above it is held that there is a serious mastitis problem in the herd.

http://www.moomilk.com/archive/u_health_34.htm

DJ in WA, oh I get it, you expect the general public to perform bacteria culture on each jug of milk they buy so they won't have the government intrusion that makes us dumb and lazy?

We have the cleanest food in the world and that makes us stupid and lazy? Insuring we have safe clean food is just a scam so, "the government workers are provided jobs and all is well!"

My grandmother died young, leaving a couple young children mother-less due to a milk borne disease. It was common 70 years ago.Let's be careful when we try to re-invent the "good old days", before regulation and other government regulatory intrusions.

Many years ago, I had a classroom experiment that grew cultures from everyday objects and foods. Everything grew bacteria, EXCEPT pasteurized milk.

Haypoint,

Thank you for re-visiting and warning about the dangers of milk borne illnesses.

I somehow get the impression that you believe me to be biased in my opinions in this thread. I hope that I am mistaken.

I believe that it is of the utmost importance to lay all of the evidence I can muster, at the feet of the unlearned. After having done that, to allow them the freedom of making their own decisions. Perhaps you may have overlooked my posting where I gave a link that warned of potential milk born health concerns. I will quote it here for your convenience.

David

Folks you are threading very close to my locking down this thread. I said earlier I don't want this to become yet another food fight between the raw vs pasteurized folks. Keep the thread to the point. As I see it: Does a state have a right to regulate the sale of milk and milk products within its boundries?

[QUOTE=haypoint;3661145]
My grandmother died young, leaving a couple young children mother-less due to a milk borne disease. It was common 70 years ago.Let's be careful when we try to re-invent the "good old days", before regulation and other government regulatory intrusions.
QUOTE]

My grandmother also died very young leaving 3 children under the age of 12. She didn't die of any milk borne disease, she died of septisemia as a result of childbirth and the baby died too. This was back in the days when "homebirth" wasn't an option, it was a fact of life and more women died in childbirth than they ever did from milk diseases. Then "progress" took over and women went to hospital to birth and infant and mother mortality dropped. Then the modern woman decided that the hospital was too antiseptic and wanted homebirth so it became an option. But when it became an option it also came with guidelines. Those guidelines minimise the risk but don't negate it and women who choose this option are made fully aware of the fact - but they have the right to choose and the risk is theirs. I put the sale of raw milk into the same category. This discussion is nothing to do with raw milk being better or worse for a person than pastuerized milk bought in the supermarket, it has a lot to do with a person's right to choose what they eat and drink and sensible guidelines being put in place for the sale of such produce and for the choices to be made available.

And thankyou David for reading my posts properly.

Cheers,
Ronnie

Big deal, that is why milk "sours" and spoils after a length of time, it always has it always will and the shelve life on Unpasteurized is WAY less~! THAT should scare the rest of you. There is milk that is "Shelve Stable" it is called "Ultra Pasteurized" and does not need to be the frig. CAN'T do that with raw milk.

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OK, you were warned.