Raw Milk Battle

The difference between a Grade A and Grade B dairy:

- Grade A dairies must meat stringent sanitation and milk testing standards as it is destined for human consumption as a raw product.

- Grade B dairies have lessor standards as the milk is destined for other uses, such as cheese, in which pasteurization occurs.

Essentially the same difference between Grade A and Grade B eggs.

"With a pipeline, once that milker is on the udder there is no chance of a clump of poop, a fly, stray hairs, the cows hoof, etc getting in the milk."

This make the assumption the tits and udder was properly sanitized before hookup.

Lol our bucket is never even under the cow, milk gets squirted in. Udder washed, parts of cow even washed off if dirty.
What idiot would strain a chunk out and still use the milk or OMG use the milk if a hoof went in. Is that big farmer mentality?
Family members of mine have caught Campylobacter from dairy bulk tank milk. Guess now someone will say "well, of course, the milk isn't pastuerized." Why would it need that if it was clean?

Considering the low margins dairy farmers enjoy, I would bet that all but the most worthless farmers strive to get that little bit of premium for better quality milk. Most dairies I have worked at have procedures in place for the proper prepping of the animal. Those that hire people to do the milking spend a bit of time training on it and pay extra based on the bonus. Those that do the milking themselves understand the reason for proper prep.

If all kinds of leaps of logic can be made about large farmers then I can make one about small farmers.

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Deja Moo; The feeling I've heard this bull before.

And when it falls or kicked off........

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He who thinks he knows, doesn't. He who knows he doesn't know, knows.~ Joseph Campbell

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Cliff, While you may sqirt the milk to a nearby pail, I doubt the 50 cow dairy in question would be able to do that.

If you believe that large farms are careless and small farms are pure is a dream world. We can't honestly make such generalizations.

If you understand that people do get Campylobacter from raw milk from a bulk tank, you cannot blind yourself from the fact that people get Campylobacter and other contaminates from raw milk from a pail, bucket, whatever.

Is this thread about the vurtues of raw milk? No. Is this thread about the government banning the sale of raw milk? No. Is this thread about a guy that had previous violations for selling products that he wasn't licensed to sell, yogert and cheese. People had heported getting sick from his milk. He refused to maintain his license to sell raw milk. He continued to sell products that he wasn't licensed to sell, yogert, etc.

Campylobacter generally will grow in the nooks and crannies of a bulk system, sometimes persistently despite regular sanitizing.
It is the system that handles the milk that puts it in danger. Simple, clean, and easily kept clean is safer imo,

This last statement is completly inaccurate.The inspections for selling raw milk are more stringent than for class A milk. The standards must also be met for a year before they are allowed to sell raw milk.

Quiet Guy, you may be right. But do we know what standards Mr Nolt uses in his un-licensed and therefore un-inspected dairy? I haven't been in his barn and neither have you. Heck, for all we know, Mr Nolt could have the bulk tank setup like the one that harbors Campylobacter like the one that sickened Cliff's relations.

Some write about squirting milk into a pail, others write about automatic milkers dropping off. Cliff thinks the design of Grade A dairy equipment is a haven for bacteria. I'll bet those that have operated the glass and stainless steel milking system in a Grade A dairy would be able to cite a few reasons why that just isn't true. Some believe the single homestead cow produces perfect milk.Some think that because the Menonite farmer dresses like someone out of the 19th century, then his cow's milk must be as pure as our mythical great grand pappy's dairy.

Some folks are so set in their beliefs that they don't see that much of their thoughts are driven by class envy.

How can you rally behind a person that refuses to maintain a licence and refuses to limit his sales to raw milk, then turn around and want regulations against the big factory poultry houses that stuff six birds in each cage?

Do you want the government out of your business or do you want regulations?

Seems clear that you want the government to leave the small farmer alone while dictating to the large farming operation. That's class envy.

I like the taste of raw milk. I'll drink it from my cow because there isn't a break in the chain from cow to glass. To expect that everyone will be just as careful with 50 cows and a huge overhead is nieve.

Thanks Quiet Guy I did that and was able to find more coverage on Mr. Nolte.


I've been following the unfolding of this discussion with some interest. It does appear, by all accounts, that Mr. Nolte willfully broke existing PA law by engaging in the selling of raw milk and raw milk products without a permit. However one views, good or bad, the action, or over re-action of the powers that be in PA to Mr. Nolte's violation is a matter of personal conjecture.

Now I'm no advocate of government meddling in private affairs, however, IMHO, oversight is not altogether bad when applied to areas as important as food safety. Would that all raw/commercial milk producers be the epitome of excellent animal husbandry, as well as, sanitation practices.

Sanitation has been stressed by more than a few in their responses here. While this is indeed a critical element to milk quality and wholesomeness, it is in no way the sole source of concern. There are non-environmental, milk borne, potential bad boys as well. The cow herself can be a carrier of illnesses that infect her milk, thereby infecting the consumer of said milk......

http://www.dairyforall.com/milkborne-diseases.php

I'm not a flag waver for either side of the raw/pasteurized debate, I've had both. If you have a penchant for drinkin' yer own, raw, fresh squeezed.... Go for it. I just feel that if you are selling milk for public consumption, you need to fully appreciate the negative potential health concerns, as well as, the positive health benefits of milk, be it raw or pasteurized and work with those who's job it is to insure a safe food supply.

IMHO, it might just be better to go a little overboard on the safe side, (permitting, oversight) than to be the cause of people becoming sick. 'Cause we all know, outside of the moral implications, if you poison the public.... Your cows will be able to use your posterior for a pasture... If ya know what I mean.

Just sayin'

Nooks and crannies on a bulk system? Is yours built to 3A standards? There are no nooks and crannies in a properly designed dairy system.

Your system is put together on paper and all info including the layout goes to the state where it is approved or disapproved. When it is built it is inspected to ensure that you are using stuff that meets the code. Then you get periodic visits from inspectors to make sure you are keeping your equipment, facilities, and even your animal up to standards.
The big guys used CIP procedures. The nozzles/slots/air injectors on a CIP system never have a bad day, aren't in a hurry to get out of the milkhouse and get some plowing done, don't have to stop in the middle of cleaning to answer the phone......
The milk is tested from every pickup for plate count. This will show if the CIP system or if you are smaller your COP procedures are adequate and doing the job properly.
Personally if I was going to buy raw milk I would buy from someone that ships to a dairy. I could look at his inspection slips, SSC and plate count records and know a lot more than buying from some guy that has a bucket and a cow out back that he milks for a little side cash.

__________________
Deja Moo; The feeling I've heard this bull before.

Cotton Picker, Your welcome
Haypoint, I know I'm correct. There is a licenced raw milk dairy locally. I'm also not sure where you got"class envy" out of my remarks.
The problem with this discussion is that no one knows exactly WHY Mr. Nolt let his licence lapse. I find it hard to believe that after jumping through the hoops necessary to get the raw milk license in the first place, that he just woke up one morning and decided that "I"m not going to renew it any more", without extenuating circumstances.
I don't have a problem with regulations so long as they are applied with commonsence. Case in point: There used to be 2 family farms in this area that processed their own milk. Had been in business for a 2 or 3 generations. They had never had any problems with their milk, no one had ever been sick, but they were ordered to "modernize" their milk plants. They couldn't find equipment that would fit their applications so they were forced to close their milk plants and farm stores. So when regulations are applied without commonsence I have a problem with them.

Guiet Guy, please enlighten us. Since you know you are right, you must have toured Mr Nolt's milking parlor. That information should settle a lot of our speculation.

Perhaps you meant that you believe Mr Nolt has gone thru the proper steps to be licensed and you believe that he continues to maintain those standards and you believe he has all the proper equipment. I'm not ready to believe.

Since there is a lot we don't know, I'll try to minimize the speculation and stick to the facts as were published and not refuted.

He was selling milk products that he wasn't licensed to sell.
His operation was inspected in August and he was given notice to stop selling illegal milk products.
People reported getting sick from his milk/milk products last spring.
Mr Nolt continued to sell milk and milk products after he let his license laps.

When people give glowing reports about all raw milk, from rusty pail to state of the art systems, but lay blame for sickness on a nook and cranny in a modern bulk tank, I think their judgement is tilted.

Please understand the difference between reactive and proactive. If you mend the fence after the cows got out, that's reactive. If you walk the fence and do repairs before they escape, that's proactive.

The USDA gets itself in hot water any time it has to react to something after the fact. They tend to be proactive. The old home operated milk processing plant may or may not have had issues. You and I don't know for sure. Anything else is just speculation. Sub-standard "grandfathered in" operations can't expect to operate that way forever.

In a make-believe world, we can sit down and discuss every rule and regulation and explore the merits of each. "Officer, I've driven this road a thousand times and always drive 20 mph over the speed limit. There isn't much traffic, I've never had an accident here. Use some common sense." or "Why do I have to put a leash on my Pit Bull? He's never bitten anyone in this Park? Use some common sense." or " My grandpappy has been bottling milk since before I was born. Just because standards change in a hundred years doesn't mean I have to follow the same rules as the big milk plant down the road. Holding me to the same standards of everyone else just isn't fair. Where's your common sense?"

Since we know Mr.Nolt wasn't following the requirements of selling only raw milk and we know this wasn't the first time, then why would you assume that he is interested in jumping thru hoops or following any other regulations?

Too bad the USDA and the PDA can't post the number of violations they've stumbled across at this dairy in the past few years.

Um... the dairy farmer made the nook and cranny comment to me btw. Not just abt. the bulk tank, but the whole system, from milk claw to tank. He said it's a common problem, difficult to sanitize %100 as bacteria can grow in the tinest connection, seam, etc.
And who said anything about a rusty pail? Sheesh, you people.
I've been known to rubber band a cheesecloth to the top of my pail so even a hair doesn't get through. Hand milking can be done cleanly.

A cheese cloth will keep flies and dander and pieces of manure and hair out of the milk. To you that is clean. Ever think about the milk rinsing the bacteria from the hair into the milk?
I have a different view because I've been at this homesteading thing for a good long while. I've seen the realities of novices doing their best to shorten up that learning curve. You think milking thru a cheesecloth reduces bacteria. I've seen plenty of folks that think a plastic pail is good enough. I don't hear anyone talking about regular testing for bacteria and white blood cells (pus) that begins at the onset of mastitus.

Look at some of the posts in this cattle section. Most folks are just learning. To encourage these people to drink raw milk without first educating them to the dangers and precautions is a dis-service to them and their families.

Out there in the real world there missed milkings, frozen water pipes, bedding shortages, etc. How many are washing teets with cold water and a T shirt out of the rag bag?

Bacteria cannot grow in the scalding hot water of a Grade A milking system.

Mr Nolt's situation is old. How about an update? Anyone live nearby that knows what is currently going on? Has the Rosa Parks of Raw Milk taken his place in the back of the bus and is currently selling licensed and inspected raw milk? He dd get found guilty.

http://dchealth.dc.gov/doh/cwp/view,a,1370,q,603690.asp

http://www.gasdetection.com/news2/he...digest119.html

http://corduroyorange.com/?p=304

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2004/504_milk.html

http://lancasterfarming.com/node/1248

I've also been at this homesteading thing for a good long while, more years than I care to think about, and through it all raw milk has been on the table on a daily basis. I take a slightly different lean to the debate in that I'm actually happy to have some bacteria floating around in my food including my milk because I want an immune system that actually works. That doesn't mean to say I'm dirty, I maintain normal cleanliness in everything I do from milking the cow, preparing food to keeping the toilet clean but I do not ensure that I or my family live in sterility.

It's also interesting that the average kitchen will be the most bacteria laden room in the house but we still prepare and eat food from it.

People who are learning have plenty of information available to them and one assumes they have the intelligence to make their own decisions as to how they want their milk. I take a bigger risk every time I drive my car on to the road than I do having a coffee with raw milk in it but I would never tell somebody they should drink raw milk just because I do.

Cheers,
Ronnie

Hi Haypoint,

While bacteria may not thrive within a closed, Grade A, CIP (Clean In Place) system, bacteriological contamination of Grade A, raw milk, can most assuredly still occur.

http://www.livestocktrail.uiuc.edu/u...0DD%202008.pdf

I concur. It does appear that several who visit this site are novices and possibly lack complete awareness concerning some of the dangers associated with potential milk borne illnesses. That is why I made this statement and gave this link in Post #29.

Hi Ronnie,

Good points. Thank you for sharing them.

David

Hey, Cotton picker, let's keep our apples and oranges in seperate baskets, OK?
There was a comment about bacteria collecting in nooks and crannies in a milking system. My statement was to show that the cleaning system in every Grade A system will not allow residual bacteria. Of course there is bacteria in raw milk a closed system, just as there is bacteria in raw milk in an open system, but it is not from the system.

Ronney, if you want to increase your injestion of bacteria as a way of toughening yourself up, be my guest. What works for you could be the death of someone else.

This thread is about Mr Nolt. We know he was found guilty. Did he appeal? Did he buckle under and get a license? Did he sell his cows to a factory dairy and go on welfare? Anyone live around this guy?

There appears to be some debate as to weather or not the milking equipment itself is the major causative agent of bacteriological contamination of raw milk.

IMHO, It doesn't matter if you are Grade A or hand milking, it's how well you clean and sanitize your milking equipment contact surfaces, that is the contributing factor in the equipment's role in milk quality.

I would not say that this thread was about Mr. Nolte exclusively. It is more about dealing with the facts surrounding his predicament. I believe that it has been established that Mr. Nolte willfully flouted the existing laws of the state of Pennsylvania. It is my opinion that the punitive actions the PDA prosecuted against Mr. Nolte, were to say the least heavy handed and disproportionate in relation to the actual threat to the health of the public at large. He wasn't selling Crack Cocaine.. He was also a soft target.

During the course of this discussion There has been mention of milk quality as it relates to raw/pasteurized milk, outside the realm of the nutritional pros/cons of either. I believe that this discussion has merit, due to the fact that the wholesomeness, or lack thereof, is the premise that the PDA took with Mr. Nolte. Due to the fact that we are not privy to all of the goings on in Nolte vs.The PDA, it would do no harm to engage in civil discourse about milk borne illnesses and how best to avoid them.

I think the real issue being discussed here isn't necessarily raw vs pasteurized. The issue is more of governmental intrusion into the lives of the farms and farmers who produce food for our nation.

On one end we have massive industrial type farms producing products for the masses. On the other end there is the small guy who sells his goods at farmers markets or off his own farm for the local folks. And then of course there are farms of varying sizes in between.

What I see is a "one size fits all approach" from our government which in effect favors the industrial farm. It could be argued that the intention of these regulations is to drive the small farms out of business. It seems to have been quite successful in doing just that.

People like Mr. Nolt have the courage of their convictions to back them up in their actions. Perhaps he acted foolishly, perhaps not. Only time will tell. I doubt I would have been able to stand against the gov't and fight as he has. I lack his courage. How many of us are willing to risk losing everything we worked for and believe in to stand against others who would take it all away? Would you?

Here's a local example of the "one size fits all" approach taken by our government.

My neighbor wants to sell apple cider from his farm. In order to do so legally, he has to install $15,000 worth of equipment and upgrade his processing areas to gov't standards. He can't afford to do that, so he can't sell his cider.

Shouldn't there be a way for everyone who wants to sell their produce, dairy, meat etc. to be in compliance with regulations, and not be driven out of doing so by the burden of costs and "one size fits all" regulations?

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~Carla~