any ideas for converting to rotational grazing?

Steve, I frost seeded in Feb' last year and it did well.

With the unusual weather we have experienced, it snowed here last evening, I will not be broadcasting any seed. Instead I will notill some grass seed in places that need remediation. My clover has lived all Winter and is coming on too strong and will probably choke out more existing established grass and harm what new grass I sow.

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

Just wanted to post an update: we have most of the fencing in place and yesterday I planted rye grass and crimson clover on the bare spots where the cedars were taken out. Will soon be planting bermuda and plan to do some fertilizing this spring to help the drought stressed grasses. So far this winter (?) we have had fair moisture, praying that continues through to summer. Will plant fescue this fall.

Was excited to find out that a good friend has frame 3 black angus that are grass fed and is happy to let me bring my girls over for breeding, she has a hubba hubba bull, so for now my wondering on bull buying is taken care of. Yes, I have Dexters but I'm growing for family meat so I've decided that crossbreeding is worth a try and the angus bull I'm going to use is only 4 -6" taller than my girls and they aren't heifers. There's a name for that, Dangus, DH was hoping I'd find a Hereford and we could call them Hexter.

Thanks to all of you for your help and encouragement.

I believe that the improvement you will see in your calves will justify your decision. The cross will, IMO, add a lot of vigor to the offspring.

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

randyandmegs

You have a better advantage knowing the topography but here is what I believe that I would do. The solid red line is a proposed lane roughly 40 feet wide. The dash line is a single permanent high tensile partition.

I am into doing things as efficiently as possible. Part of the solid line will share the pasture perimeter fence and save some money. The rest of the lane fence will be inside the the pasture perimeter and should be just two single high tensile wires, one each side of the lane. The primary reason for running the lane where I did is to enable efficient movement of equipment when doing tasks. As you are aware I am into long and as near rectangular paddocks with only permanent wires on the long parallel runs. With no gates and long runs the turning around will be just at each end. Between fields 2 and 17 that should be a poly wire and pigtail post lane that can be taken down when not needed. The lane at the bottom of the pic should get the animals back to the barn also. At the same time it will give some protection from heavy equipment to the underground water lines if you do the layout to match the lane. I do realize that you will not be using all these areas in the immediate future but this should lay the groundwork for future expansion.

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

If anyone has any ideas to share based on the questions I have for Agmantoo feel free.
AGmantoo:Thanks for the addition to the drawing. That is pretty close to what I was thinking in concept except I had not planned on doing the lanes, but I'm also not close minded to it as well. I'm awaiting district level approval to in the next week to dig the well and put water lines and waterer's to fields 4,5,6.
I finished reading the entire thread last night and here are my questions so far. Sorry if some have been covered already but about 3/4ths of th way through I lost the file where I was keeping track of the questions as I went and excuse me if some are stupid questions.
1. What is your system for ear tagging calves. I know you said left and right for males versus females but what is your system for numbers as far as birth time frames?
2. How much time do you spend bush hogging to prevent fescue from going to seed? We have a 10' Woods bush hog and with the topography it takes a lot of time and fuel to get our farm totally cut and if Im not mistaken you have more in pasture than we do. My grandfather does it back wards however and wants it to go to seed first then cuts to spread that seed around. I understand the reason for your process and agree with you. Just curious as to how much time it takes you.
3. Im pretty sure you covered this but I cant find it now... How long after planting various forages can they be grazed? Is it different for each type of forage and is there a test to see when a plant is ready as far as looking at root system or pulling it up?
4. During the warm season we have an abundance of dung beetles that break down manure only leaving a crust. Granted we don't have a large number of cows yet, 20 cows with 12 or so calves this past year. With the correct stocking rate it many not be possible to have that many dung beetles to break all that down manure but do you think that is an alternative to dragging pasture or is it better to spread the nutrients across the grass?
5a. Quote from post you had... "For me I would clip the fescue just above any remaining leaves or about 4 inches whichever fits. I did that just today on what I had the cattle grazing for the last week. I have tried both leaving and clipping and I get better regrowth on the clipped along with less weeds. I want no thatch when the fescue starts regrowing." Is the fact that your bush hog it cutting the tops off only, does it cut it up so fine that you don't have thatch or does it breakdown prior to fescue regrowing. I was thinking that by cutting it would create more thatch.
5b. As far as thatch goes... in a few areas that I personally get to graze this year with my cows there is a heavy layer of thatch from last years forage. Should I take the landscape/root rake through those areas to clean that up in order to let the fescue sprout?
6. Can you explain a little more on the 45 minute test to determine paddock test size.
7. Would you think a landscape rake would work for a drag harrow, or should I purchase one like you have or a chain harrow style with the spikes pointing up.
8. I have a guaranteed market for retail beef a a premium price only 2-3 steers this first year. What is best way to get marbling, best taste through grass and forages? The rest of the calves will go to sale like you.
9. Last and most important question. Everyone on this thread has problems with lack of rain when needed and that could be a disaster to all in any given year. Why not install irrigation? Im sure the main reason is cost but would the benefits not out weight the cost for some of us. What are all the benefits/negatives for irrigation? Could you go through the dormant season with green forages by irrigating? I have all this extra money to spend now and I am having water put in, in order to have a water source at each paddock. Should I invest in an irrigator such as the K-line system. I got a quote "The K-Line 2 acre kit is an easy to use option. The pods are 50 ft apart. 6 pods and 600 ft of line is $945. Fitting will be around $55." so I could afford 3 of these systems. What are your thought on this?
10. Speaking of water lines. If I have the ability to place water in every paddock wouldn't I be better off going that route versus creating the lanes for the cattle to walk to the water. What are you thought on this as well.

1. What is your system for ear tagging calves. I know you said left and right for males versus females but what is your system for numbers as far as birth time frames?1. What is your system for ear tagging calves. I know you said left and right for males versus females but what is your system for numbers as far as birth time frames?

I do put the ear tag for a female in the left ear. Left and Heif er rhyme so it is easy to remember. For the year of birth I use the alphabet. For example let A represent the year 2000 and then the 12th letter from 2000 is M equating to 12. If you want to do the month also just repeat and the current month would be B. M B will then give you M/B or 12/2 Additionally I sequentially add the the total calves as they are born and tagged. I start at 100 in January of each year. M B with 116 on the tag in the left ear would be a heifer, the 16th calf born on 2012 Feb
1. What is your system for ear tagging calves. I know you said left and right for males versus females but what is your system for numbers as far as birth time frames?
2. How much time do you spend bush hogging to prevent fescue from going to seed? We have a 10' Woods bush hog and with the topography it takes a lot of time and fuel to get our farm totally cut and if Im not mistaken you have more in pasture than we do. My grandfather does it back wards however and wants it to go to seed first then cuts to spread that seed around. I understand the reason for your process and agree with you. Just curious as to how much time it takes you.

I can bushhog most of my land at 3 acres per hour. Very steep land takes longer.
If you manage your pastures you will not have to clip all the fescue. You will clip only the grass that you are wanting to delay going to seed and to control weeds.


3. Im pretty sure you covered this but I cant find it now... How long after planting various forages can they be grazed? Is it different for each type of forage and is there a test to see when a plant is ready as far as looking at root system or pulling it up?

Ideally it is best to avoid grazing the first year

4. During the warm season we have an abundance of dung beetles that break down manure only leaving a crust. Granted we don't have a large number of cows yet, 20 cows with 12 or so calves this past year. With the correct stocking rate it many not be possible to have that many dung beetles to break all that down manure but do you think that is an alternative to dragging pasture or is it better to spread the nutrients across the grass?

Folks in different parts of the country will have different opinions on drag harrowing manure. If I had a ranch that support 1 cow 1calf per 15 acres I doubt that I would go through the effort. Since I have only 1.4 acres per 1cow 1 calf I need to distribute the manure. Distributing the manure lets the particles of manure drop down near or on the soil. It is more difficult for the cattle to pick up parasites at that level and when the animals are cycled onto this paddock in the near future they will graze the entire area instead of eating around the pies. Recall I am not applying commercial fertilizer and I want the nutrients from the manure distributed
5a. Quote from post you had... "For me I would clip the fescue just above any remaining leaves or about 4 inches whichever fits. I did that just today on what I had the cattle grazing for the last week. I have tried both leaving and clipping and I get better regrowth on the clipped along with less weeds. I want no thatch when the fescue starts regrowing." Is the fact that your bush hog it cutting the tops off only, does it cut it up so fine that you don't have thatch or does it breakdown prior to fescue regrowing. I was thinking that by cutting it would create more thatch.

Thatch at my place results from what you grandfather is doing as he bushhogs the headed fescue. The resulting stems are left standing and is now past its growing season. The cattle will not harvest these dead and dying stems and since these stems are not in contact with the soil they are slow to decay. New growth will later emerge and the stems remain to create thatch.


5b. As far as thatch goes... in a few areas that I personally get to graze this year with my cows there is a heavy layer of thatch from last years forage. Should I take the landscape/root rake through those areas to clean that up in order to let the fescue sprout?

When I get this condition with the thatch I force my herd to trample the stems into the ground. I do not have an answer for your situation, maybe disc lightly with no angle on the disc blades


6. Can you explain a little more on the 45 minute test to determine paddock test size.

Just allocate a small area and let the cattle on it. Watch them for 45 minutes. At the end of the time see whether they have eaten all the forage or just a percentage of it. If they ate all of it in 30 minutes then determine roughly how much more you should have allocated. Then tomorrow do the same thing and see how accurate you new allocation works for the 45 minute time. If it is close then double that amount for the next days allocation and leave the cattle on that area for 24 hours. When you go to move them again observe the herd and the area grazed. There should be some stubble remaining on the grass and the cows should not be bawling. If there is too little stubble remaining or if the herd is discontent increase the area. The herd will let you know if they are not getting adequate forage.
7. Would you think a landscape rake would work for a drag harrow, or should I purchase one like you have or a chain harrow style with the spikes pointing up.

The intent of dragging is to get the cow pies distributed as crumbles. The worn out spike harrow works best for me. I have a chain harrow but no longer use it. I plan on making a 20 ft drag harrow similar to a spike harrow but without the spikes
8. I have a guaranteed market for retail beef a a premium price only 2-3 steers this first year. What is best way to get marbling, best taste through grass and forages? The rest of the calves will go to sale like you.
Some breeds of cattle will have a greater tendency to marble on grass than others. Marbling is genetically influenced.


9. Last and most important question. Everyone on this thread has problems with lack of rain when needed and that could be a disaster to all in any given year. Why not install irrigation? Im sure the main reason is cost but would the benefits not out weight the cost for some of us. What are all the benefits/negatives for irrigation? Could you go through the dormant season with green forages by irrigating? I have all this extra money to spend now and I am having water put in, in order to have a water source at each paddock. Should I invest in an irrigator such as the K-line system. I got a quote "The K-Line 2 acre kit is an easy to use option. The pods are 50 ft apart. 6 pods and 600 ft of line is $945. Fitting will be around $55." so I could afford 3 of these systems. What are your thought on this?Nearly no one in my area has irrigation. The cost to drive and maintain an irrigation pump is one of the main reasons. Our topography is another. Your time will be better spent IMO working with your herd as you grow rather than dragging a few water lines around. Being a hobby produce is one thing. Being in the cattle business is another. Broaden you thoughts now rather than reworking something that is inadequate in the future. A $20,000 irrigation system should suffice for your place in the future. Being able to irrigate just a few acres is a waste. If you want a contingency plan buy a metal building and store bought hay when it is cheap. 1/2 of the initial purchase price of the building can be written off the first year. The bought hay will contain nutrient that you will be recycling to the pasture and at the same time will feed your herd any time of the year. The irrigation system will not grow you forage out of season.


10. Speaking of water lines. If I have the ability to place water in every paddock wouldn't I be better off going that route versus creating the lanes for the cattle to walk to the water. What are you thought on this as well.

The lane is multifunctional! You can graze it. You can sacrifice it when you do not want paddocks damaged by any kind of traffic. You can move the herd back to the corral to treat animals or to select one being sold. During drought you could graze the woods and get cattle back to water. The lane allows unimpeded movement to nearly anywhere on the farm. I think it is essential.

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

The beetle population will explode in a rotationally grazed situation. There will be a ton of new food for them all in one area. I still agree with Agman that spreading it out somehow is beneficial in multiple ways.

Try a high density stocking rate, if you have the time to spend on the management. I would be leery of making them graze too low, they can get into fungus.

Read Grassfed to Finish, by Allan Nation. He goes into great detail as to what, why and how. It's well worth the money.

Again, I firmly agree with Agman that management comes first. You'll be pleasantly surprised when you find out how far it can take you without any expensive inputs. I think that one way the "little guy" gets it wrong when producing commodities is to think he can compete with the big guys. The way to make better money is not to produce more total volume, it's to produce what the land and animals will naturally give, at the lowest cost possible. Prices will fall, and when they do, the low cost producers will still be in the game.

Nearly no one in my area has irrigation. The cost to drive and maintain an irrigation pump is one of the main reasons. Our topography is another. Your time will be better spent IMO working with your herd as you grow rather than dragging a few water lines around. Being a hobby produce is one thing. Being in the cattle business is another. Broaden you thoughts now rather than reworking something that is inadequate in the future. A $20,000 irrigation system should suffice for your place in the future. Being able to irrigate just a few acres is a waste. If you want a contingency plan buy a metal building and store bought hay when it is cheap. 1/2 of the initial purchase price of the building can be written off the first year. The bought hay will contain nutrient that you will be recycling to the pasture and at the same time will feed your herd any time of the year. The irrigation system will not grow you forage out of season.

With the grant money I have been awarded Im trying to as you say "Broaden my thoughts" now and do things right the first time around. That is why I am thinking outside the box like the irrigation idea as the last 3 years worth of posts is everyone with the same complaint or issue talking about the lack of rain sometimes for months at a time. That is one aspect I can see that I can make a difference in and have the money to spend on it this year. Unless someone has some better ideas for me that I am not thinking of. The NC Agricultural Cost Share Program covers all the temp and permanent fencing, and waterers. At least for this year I will be grazing 11.5 acres on one side of the road, fields 4 and 6 on the map. That is actually just one field now as I removed the existing fence near the end that was covered in Kudzu. I will also be able to go across the road to graze the 14.5 acres. I am planning on purchasing a used International Dresser dozer soon will will make that field larger over time as well. I realize the irrigation will not grow forage out of season but will it not help the last late July-August dormant period and give me the ability to make it through a drought? My thinking (which may be wrong) was to use the irrigation in conjunction with my watering system. As you can see from the picture I posted of my proposed temp paddocks that I do have a 48'x96' barn this is completely full of round bales stacked 3 high with another barn the same size at my house.

Regarding irrigation and drought off setting

One Acre-Inch = 27154 gallons of water
It will take a larger pump than most wells will have and it would have to be a great well to yield that much water. I have not calculated the pipe ID to carry the water. When you get away from the pump the pipe friction will impact the delivery.

Gabriel is right in that once you get the pastures in good order you will have a significant improvement over conventional grazing even in dry years. In the last 12 years I doubled my herd size and I have only supplemented my pasture forage in the drought of 2007/2008. I sailed through the 2003 drought unscathed. Clipping the heads off the fescue will let the fescue carry your herd into Summer. Planting some warm season forage suitable to your location could also help. I just stockpile fescue and feed a little Red River Crab grass. If I had access to a free hay storage building I would not concern myself with drought. As I stated previously, you are buying hay and getting fertilizer. A 4 x 5 round bale of fertilized hay is stated to contain $28 worth of nutrient. The hay can be stored for many years without a lot of loss.

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

I understand what you are saying regarding irrigation. Terrible problem to have support and funding to move to rotational grazing and not knowing how to best utilize those funds. Last year after topping off our barn with hay I had a surplus of 42 round bales of hay that I sold to a neighbor. Not to long afterwords I met with the NRCS grazing specialist that had the documented proof of the real value of a bale of hay. Your number is actually a little lower than his and that doesn't even include the cost of fuel, labor, depreciation on equipment not to mention my neighbor has all the nutrients that I took off our place. Made me a little sick to realize my mistake in thinking I was making any money selling hay. Never again!
I have been cleaning up the last 3 days and hauling off scrap metal that had accumulated on the farm over the past 70 years. I ended up finding a chain type harrow and a spike type harrow. The spiked one looks like it has never been used but looking at your posts thing would tear up the ground verus doing what I need to, to spread the manure. I did send a request asking to spend the funds in another manner that what I had previously submitted. As long as it still falls under the same purpose of what I called managed grazing they should let me redirect the funds. I still haven't heard any ideas from anyone. I saw where a few years ago another farmer was allowed to use the funds to purchase a bull to improve "genetics and structure" so maybe I can go a simliar route to work on the herd. Im headed out the #5 field today to start fencing out the creek.

I agree with agmantoo - about irrigation.
The 27154 gallons of water is per-week to keep fescue growing from what I read.
Now take your well capacity per minute - mine is 20gmp and it comes to a grand total of between 5 and 7 acres watered during a drought and I would have daily moves of the water system.

I would have had to have a 160 gmp well at a minimum in order to irrigate my entire property which is massive.

Oh and another thing - my well when running non-stop is costing me around $200 per month in electricity and that's with the 20 gpm pump.

The 5-7 acres I could irrigate would not be enough to feed my cattle although it would help offset - I just found it would not be cost effective.

You know, it's not a crime to leave that money unspent. It's always our first inclination to think of .gov money as "free"... but we all know it's not.

Do you have a good fence charger? What kind/how many spools of temp' fencing? If I had the money to spare, I'd pick up some of the O'Brien geared reels and a Stafix charger.

If you do change your mind about getting a bull, I highly recommend Pharo Cattle Company. I bought a red Angus from them last fall and wow, what an impressive little guy. He has maintained body condition better than all the others and is simply a grazing machine. Very mild mannered also. Where ever you get your bull from, make sure he was raised on pasture only, grain "covers a multitude of sins".

That money is to support WNC farmers that would not be able to farm otherwise. The money comes from the Tobacco Settlement Trust Fund. All of the items you have listed can be bought through the NC cost share program. I do already have most of that anyways as I bought it on my own last year to move my 3 steers around here at the house. I do want to go with a black angus bull, I hope to either go that route or black heifers to get me going.I wonder how do they get those bulls from CO to NC with no issues? Likewise I bet the shipping is a small fortune. I am interested but hopefully I could find someone much closer.

randyandmegs

Here is something to ponder over and to possible adapt to your specific location. With your topography and with the usual spring water available in locations such as yours can you conclude how to capture the water at a higher elevation and use subsurface trickle irrigation to deliver water to a lower elevation field without having to depend on electricity or fossil fuel?
subsurface drip/trickle irrigation

This is a copy and paste to let you know what I am referencing.

Drip Irrigation - A dripper in actionDrip irrigation, also known as trickle irrigation, functions as its name suggests. Water is delivered at or near the root zone of plants, drop by drop. This method can be the most water-efficient method of irrigation, if managed properly, since evaporation and runoff are minimized.[citation needed] In modern agriculture, drip irrigation is often combined with plastic mulch, further reducing evaporation, and is also the means of delivery of fertilizer. The process is known as fertigation.


Drip Irrigation Layout and its partsDeep percolation, where water moves below the root zone, can occur if a drip system is operated for too long of a duration or if the delivery rate is too high. Drip irrigation methods range from very high-tech and computerized to low-tech and relatively labor-intensive. Lower water pressures are usually needed than for most other types of systems, with the exception of low energy center pivot systems and surface irrigation systems, and the system can be designed for uniformity throughout a field or for precise water delivery to individual plants in a landscape containing a mix of plant species. Although it is difficult to regulate pressure on steep slopes, pressure compensating emitters are available, so the field does not have to be level. High-tech solutions involve precisely calibrated emitters located along lines of tubing that extend from a computerized set of valves.

Both pressure regulation and filtration to remove particles are important. The tubes are usually black (or buried under soil or mulch) to prevent the growth of algae and to protect the polyethylene from degradation due to ultraviolet light. But drip irrigation can also be as low-tech as a porous clay vessel sunk into the soil and occasionally filled from a hose or bucket. Subsurface drip irrigation has been used successfully on lawns, but it is more expensive than a more traditional sprinkler system. Surface drip systems are not cost-effective (or aesthetically pleasing) for lawns and golf courses. In the past one of the main disadvantages of the subsurface drip irrigation (SDI) systems, when used for turf, was the fact of having to install the plastic lines very close to each other in the ground, therefore disrupting the turfgrass area. Recent technology developments on drip installers like the drip installer at New Mexico State University Arrow Head Center, places the line underground and covers the slit leaving no soil exposed.

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

I would be worried about very wet and soggy conditions with that drip irrigation system Agmantoo - at times on my place the cattle will sink 4-5 inches (worst case condition) but mostly only 2-3 inches. My fear would be that they cut or crimp the thin black tubing if it's like what I have seen at Lowes and such.

If you don't have a fence charger I will give a personal review of my Stafix charger with remote control - that remote control is the bomb - being able to turn off/on the fence from anywhere is the most used feature on my remote which also doubles as a short finder.

I got a bull from Yon Family Farm in SC - great quality bulls I think and he delivers it free. www.yonfamilyfarms.com/ at auction the bull I purchased was $3,250 PB Black Angus and it was one of the least expensive bulls purchased that day. The most expensive bull purchased that day went for over $15,000 I'm not sure why I was able to pick mine up for so little as IMO he had better stats for what I was looking for then others that sold for more. They have bull auctions twice a year - in November and Jan/Feb - think you just missed this latest one.

I was just reading their information in the Carolina Cattle Connection. This months issue spotlight is on Angus so that should give me some direction to start looking.

For anyone who is intersted the free program I used to draw out my paddocks on post 1897 is located at http://scribblemaps.com/

IIRC, Agman had some trouble with his MG bull adapting to an all forage diet. If you feed grain, it's no big deal to buy a bull that grew up on that diet, but if you don't... you never know what you'll get. The spring PCC sale is coming up. Delivery is quite reasonable as they deliver a lot of bulls all over the country, it's not like they have to hire a truck for each bull. You might well be able to find a supplier much closer, check the Stockman Grass Farmer's ad's. You can request a free issue at the site.

You're not that far away from Agman, are you? If I was closer I'd have bought my heifers from him.

I feed only grass and hay - as little hay as possible - and hi-mag mineral supplement - that's it.

I did experiment with corn glutton/soy hull mix the previous year because I ran out of hay and couldn't find more but it's way too expensive. I had poor planning and even poorer conditions that year.

Anyway my point is my bull is doing well and still is in fine condition.

Oh another nice thing - if Yon has a 1 year satisfaction guarantee - which if I remember correctly you can return him for a refund.

I guess I'm pleased because although I am planning on going AI for the next few years when I get ready to get rid of this bull and buy another it's a good chance I'll get another Yon Bull if I don't keep one of my own.

I get the SGF and enjoy reading it. I have purchase many books listed in there. I am waiting on Grassfed to Finish. I just received Southern Forages yesterday and really like it so far. I can actually identify some of the forages I have already growing.
Yeah, I bought my registered red angus bull listed below that had been grain fed. I dont
have much of opinon of him yet due to the problems with the mamma cows.

His EPD is http://http://search.redangus.org/animal/1227103