any ideas for converting to rotational grazing?

X2 what he said ^

__________________
Sold the farm no more critters
I have a postage stamp lot now
I aim to make it the most organic productive 1/3 acre in southwest Missouri
With a 20 acre plot to be added in 3 years or so

I agree with the last 2 posts however I would like to add that even if he does graze he will still need to clip the pasture to reduce weeds. I would not spend the $$ on pasture renovation - instead simply graze and clip.

One thing to remember - sometimes what we consider weeds are actually just food for a cow - especially when the weeds are immature.

I have an area that needs renovation - before coming here I probably would have went with a tractor to do what I want done. Now I'm on the other side of the fence - it will take longer but cost me nothing - actually it will gain me $$ instead because I plan on using the area during times of forage lows on my improved pasture. I figure it saved me around 400-500 bucks this winter in feed having the cows eat what are to me weeds.

The area I have is a mixture of 10 year old clear cut, old beaver ponds turned meadows, and very mature hard wood forest. Most of the wooded area both mature and immature is overrun with Chinese private, black berries, and honeysuckle. This winter my cows have gained weight eating mostly Private and Honeysuckle with a bit of reeds and grass mixed in. This summer I imagine it will be mostly grass that they eat. I can already tell just from the month and 1/2 that they have been in this area that they are already opening up the understory which will allow more light to penetrate which I'm hoping will translate into more grass and edible forbes growing.

So personally - I would just throw up a perimeter fence around the entire place (or as much as you can) and sub-divide with poly-wire and step in posts and not worry about permanent sub-divisions yet - just make sure you clip when you see weeds starting to flower - clip as high as your brushhog will go and see where nature takes you.

Gymno

The advice given is right on! Doing as suggested should put you at least 1 year ahead. What establishes itself should be grasses that are adapted to your location and should persist while providing maximum grazing. Let the grasses get started and add the legumes next season. The next step is to locate animals that are accustomed to eating what grows on your place. Stay with what will be sustainable without having to supplement with outside purchased protein if possible. Along with all other items that are increasing in price it is my opinion that feed prices will become more of an impact in production costs near term. Those that are feeding grain are already feeling the pinch. Good luck.

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

The problem with pasture renovation that every one seems to want to do is this. They go buy a piece of ground that is over grown and hasnt been in production for a while. They want to mow it down and plant a bunch of great things and make it a picturesque meadow. Well it was likely over used and under cared for, for years. Then the PO gave up on it and let is grow up with weeds for a few years. Then it was sold. The PH is likely off, there is probalby a good thatch layer but the healthy soil layer is so thin that when you cut everything off and plow or seed it you lose the good soil to wind and rain. You also stripped off all the protection for all of the life in that thin layer of soil. So when you plant all the expensive seed you will likely get a very poor stand.
You would be better off to take a soil sample. after you get the results back in a few weeks, you will know exactly what you are working with. In my part of the country the best thing to do would be to put down the 3 L's. Lime, litter, and legumes. Do this in mid fall or late winter, and fence the perimiter. then stock it in the spring. If you have a good stand of quality weeds (ask you extension agent to identify what you have growing currently) you may be able to stock it right away along with the 3 L's. The cows will get in there and eat everything that is forage, and leave the brush and briars. you go in and clip them with the brush hog, and then plant or drill your desired seed in the following fall. You should have a beautiful stand in the spring of year 2, and it will improve and thicken each year with good managment. Sadly the good management part is harder than it sounds, and it will probably take 3 to 5 years to learn that part.

__________________
Sold the farm no more critters
I have a postage stamp lot now
I aim to make it the most organic productive 1/3 acre in southwest Missouri
With a 20 acre plot to be added in 3 years or so

Well thank you all for your response and help. It seems the engineer in me has over thought and analyzed how to "optimize " the grass quantity. I really do think that the prices of all food commodities will only increase, and even more ...probably more than we can even think.


I appreciate your help and hope you can continue in this regard! I am taking a long term approach to this and thought i needed to all this work to just get started. Some said to actually plow until i realized (from you all) that it is the top layer that we are interested in developing and to till that under was outright dumb in my case. So let me take another stab at a plan!

1. We did a soil analysis last year as trebizwiz suggested. It is actually very good soil. Drains well, decent first layer, PH is 6.3. First off do you think i need to lime it with that high of PH? Certainly can, but it seems like the PH is OK. So what i will do is just let things grow like it has and keep it mowed with the brush hog. That is quite a bit of mowing but i enjoy tractor work!

2. I will put in a perimeter fence and hold off on the Paddock fences. Ultimately i will get those in along with my water system. I will manage the initial cows using polywire. I will invest in a good electric system (from the savings in the herbicide)

3. I still think i will get a couple of Heiffers. I had a great coversation with my neighbor who recommended another one that has the "best heiffers in the area" . I belieeve he is going to sell them in April. I will go talk to him, and ask him what we might have available. Still think i will start with 2 or 3 and build from there. I will get some pictures if i can of them and if i can figure how to post them will do that as i have NO IDEA, even after researching on the internet, what we are looking for other than the small/medium size that AGman talks about. I believe that is what is here. There are lots of Angus around here.

4. I have a couple of technical questions that maybe you can help me with..

-----the first is what happens to quality of the grass that is "stockpiled". I realize that stockpiled grass seems to be hay that isn't cut. Does it lose its nurishment value being stockpiled vs. being made into hay? I can certainly stockpile a signficant part of my field this year, keeping it mowed enough so that seed heads don't come out? Someone asked me if the stockpiled grass was still good for cows....and i didn't know for sure.


----there are times we have snow that is 8 -12" thick. Sometimes it is only for a little while. Agman, i know you recommend to have an emergency supply of hay, but how do you know when you need to feed them because they can't through the snow to the forage? Newbe questions for sure, but i want to learn!


Thanks again to all of you for helping steer me in the right direction. I want to have a very low cost of production, and it seems when i read about cattle, i am constantly being sold to do this and that....and that means $$$.

my best....Jim

Gymno, your question

I have a couple of technical questions that maybe you can help me with..

-----the first is what happens to quality of the grass that is "stockpiled". I realize that stockpiled grass seems to be hay that isn't cut. Does it lose its nurishment value being stockpiled vs. being made into hay? I can certainly stockpile a signficant part of my field this year, keeping it mowed enough so that seed heads don't come out? Someone asked me if the stockpiled grass was still good for cows....and i didn't know for sure.

Here is an article that gives info on fescue stockpiling.
http://www.uky.edu/Ag/AnimalSciences/pubs/agr162.pdf

----there are times we have snow that is 8 -12" thick. Sometimes it is only for a little while. Agman, i know you recommend to have an emergency supply of hay, but how do you know when you need to feed them because they can't through the snow to the forage?


Snow that deep without a heavy ice crust is no problem. The cattle will move the snow aside and eat right on.


As for being a low cost producer, I have learned over time that most of what I have been told or read regarding cattle production was perception, not facts. I get a lot of flack from conventional producers at another cattle site I visit. It seems ingrained in many folks that only the way the family has raised cattle in the past is the only thing that will work. Then these same people grumble at not making a profit.

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

Gymo. What is the normal stocking rate in your area for the upland pastures? That would give an idea of the initial productivity due to soils and climate.

Bruce, i don't know. I know that the stocking rate most use is based on what the summer follage brings and they all hay in the winter. It seems to me, and Agman can correct me, but if you use rotational grazing, that the maximum stocking rate will be based on how much your winter forage will last. I know that we have reasonably mild winters and late august everything is brown that isn't subirrigated. Sept/Oct brings more moisture. I will need to "discover" what are pasture will hold. Also will be discussing this with the guy that i hope i get my future heifers from. I'm thinking that i could probably ultimately put a cow /calf pair on 2 acres? I think Agman is able to to that on 1.4 acres or so.

Jim

I think you are overly opptunistic as to stocking rate. I am making some assumptions as to your climate.
Here in Nebraska where I am annual rainfall of about 23 inches, growing season sporatically starts sometime in March and is over sometime in November. Here standard set stocking rate May to October ,5 months is 4 acres/cow-calf pair. With rotational grazing you can improve on this greatly, and it will depend some on how short your grazing interval is and how long your rest periods are.
The two main pitfalls in a climate like mine, even with rotational grazing is starting too early in the spring and getting ahead of the grass and grazing to heavily the 4-6 weeks before dormancy occurs, which can adversely affect energy reserves in the root system and weaken your spring regrowth ability.
I am impressed with Agman system and management, also a little envious, but I realize my topography, rainfall and growing season will not allow that level of productivity on my pastures.
If you are planning to run a cow on 2 acres year around, I fear you will be dissapointed and your pasture will suffer. I would ask the guy you are getting heifers from what his stocking rate is, as a baseline and try to improve on that. Having extra grass is a good thing, running short on grazing can be expensive or a dissaster. Good luck

Thanks Bruce for the feedback. My one goal, and i know it will take years of specific experience is to maximize use of our pastures. I will alwyas have some siginificant grass reserves. My neighbor has an entire year ( he doesn't know what to do with it all!) . So if i start small, i can gradually build a herd and see what really works. If it the stocking rate is 4 per acre...so be it! Agman is really the person that got me going on this (he doesn't know that....thanks Agman!) and i am excited about the possibility. I certainly will not purposely overgraze (either in the fall or spring) and shoot myself in the foot. In western washington, the stocking rate was about 1 mature cow per acre but they have much more rain than we do. We have the same 20" of rain you do, but not the extreme temps you guys have.

So now a question to you as you are in Nebraska...my Grandparents homesteaded in Lewellen Nebraska. Do you know where that is? They had 1000's of acres all over. TOok my dad back there before he passed away and he remembered it all as it was yesterday. So my heritage is from Nebraska...and i root for Big Red! Actually names our new ranch after it.

Thanks Bruce...

Jim

Gyno It is indeed a small world, not only do I know Lewellend, I taught school there for two year in 1978=1980. Coached the boys sports. What is you grandfathers name?

bruce....Rudolph Noetzelmann. Also lived a lot in Kearney.

A Rick Noetzelmann was at the school for maybe 1 semester. He played football for me until he blew a knee. I did not know Rudolph.

I got 10 tons of litter spread yesterday. $240, so i am pretty happy with that. It may just be my imagination, but my clover is already looking better. some of it seems to have grown an inch over night. Now its been in the 50s and 60s since saturday, and we had a ton of snow last week, so maybe its just the warmth and moisture, but I am optimistic for a very early stand this year.
I still need 8 tons of lime spread, but the ground is still a little soft. the guy says he usually weighs 50K,a dn the litter guys weigh around 30K. My litter guy left a few tracks and did almost get hung up in the neighbors field when he was headed to mine, but he made it.
I am now trying to get ahold of my other neighbor. He lives in another town, but owns the land adjacent to me. I want to lease it and get some more cows this year. I am also hoping mine have heifers next month. So if all goes well, I will be building fence next month.
I think this year, I will use the extra land as overflow grazing. I'll graze mine just the way I wnat it, adn then if I need more recovery time, I'll move the heard over to the lease, and graze over there until I am satisfied with the recovery, thenm move them back to my ground. That will give me a year to improve that land with grazing, and maybe this fall I can get more pastured chickens. I am planning on 50 this spring and a few turkeys. If it goes the way I expect I'll get 200 chicks in the fall. I probably wont get any more turkeys until next spring since it takes 7 months to raise them and they sell best at Thanksgiving.
The only reason for th poultry is, my accountant said I have to show some income next year, and I wont have any beef to process until the following year. Cows arent a one year fast profit business. Not if you plan on direct marketing them. Plus I enjoy the medly of animals out there being animals. Its kind of peaceful. Takes the edge off the day job. Besides if I do turn a proffit, I can buy more land and more animals. Who knows, if I am lucky. I can retire and work 80 hours a week.

__________________
Sold the farm no more critters
I have a postage stamp lot now
I aim to make it the most organic productive 1/3 acre in southwest Missouri
With a 20 acre plot to be added in 3 years or so

I had 84-100 tons of poultry litter spread over my 40 acre pasture last Thursday - price for the litter was around $2,500 and spreading was $630 expensive but a lot less then inorganic. It has not rained since it was spread and we had at least a week of no rain prior to it being spread. Since my grass is still so short (not catching any morning dew at all) it really hasn't had much effect other than make my eyes burn when I'm out there and the grass does seem a darker shade of green.

I'm looking forward to getting some rain in tonight/tomorrow to kick the grass into gear and get some growth.

It is raining right now here. i should have some pretty nice growth next week. Plus the smell should be gone. I was hoping the rain would hold off for 2 more days. It was almost dry enough to get a lime truck out there. My PH is 6.3 I think. i seem to have lost the soil sample sheet. they mailed it instead of emailing it as I requested. I can never keep paperwork straight very long. I know I was bad low on P and K, and pretty good on nitrogen. I am guessing that's why my clover responded so quickly. It was starved for P and K.
I have a baby red coming next month. I am very excited. By the looks of Momma, it should be a small calf. Unfortunately for the other heifer, her claf looks much bigger, I am hoping for twins, because one calf that big is gonna be tough to deliver for a heifer. I am thinking about taking her to the vet for an ultrasound to see if we need to do anything special. I am not sure though. These are my first calves, I dont want them to think I am stupid for bringing them in.

__________________
Sold the farm no more critters
I have a postage stamp lot now
I aim to make it the most organic productive 1/3 acre in southwest Missouri
With a 20 acre plot to be added in 3 years or so

trbizwiz, I'd rather look stupid than lose an animal. I've found that asking others their opinion makes them feel good, besides, if you go to a vet... that's their job! I do hate paying for an opinion though, perhaps there's an experienced rancher who can advise?

The one in question is a little shorter than the one who looks fine. BUt she is 2 times as wide as the taller one. Now I have seen plenty of cows that look as wide as Baby cakes, but she is just a heifer, so I am not real sure how a big calf will work out. I guess I will call and make an appointment for next Saturday. She isnt due until April, but the first one is due in March, though she looks to have a small calf, or a very full rumen all the time. They both are round enough you cant see their teets unless you just about crawl under them. They seem nicely formed as best I can tell. I mean there are at least 4 handles to grab on to (I dont think they would let me).

__________________
Sold the farm no more critters
I have a postage stamp lot now
I aim to make it the most organic productive 1/3 acre in southwest Missouri
With a 20 acre plot to be added in 3 years or so

trbizwiz

What is the body condition score of each animal? What did the heifer weigh when she was bred. What breed is the bull they were bred to? How much grain have they had in the last 3 months?
Can you post pics straight on from the rear of each animal?

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

Thanks for responding Agman. I couldnt really tell you the body condition, they are pretty hairy. But I would say they are fair. I dont really see any bony protrusions, but the rumps arent as round as I would like.
The bull was a registered red poll, and he had only sired 1 calf prior to breeding mine. I dont remember that calfs weight, but it seemed like it was close to the breed standard.
They have had no grain sisnce they were weened. just grass, clover, and turnips as a treat. They love turnips.
I have a mineral lick out for them and they all chew and lick on it. I havent fed any ground or loose minerals, maybe I should.
I will try to get some rump pic's today at lunch, when I go home to check cows and let the free range chickens out.
With their diet a large calf doesnt seem likely, so either she has twins, or the first cow isnt bred. There is a significant difference between the two.
I am reasonably sure the thinner one is bred. She never rides any of the others, I never see any shiny stuff on her rump, and she was with a bull for 2.5 months during breeding season.

__________________
Sold the farm no more critters
I have a postage stamp lot now
I aim to make it the most organic productive 1/3 acre in southwest Missouri
With a 20 acre plot to be added in 3 years or so