any ideas for converting to rotational grazing?

Godsgapeach

Since the start of this thread, can you give a rough idea of how many cows have come and gone from the heard?

How is that bull doing? Are the calves in the above photos from him?

I think you may be a bit to far south for fescue. It seems like bahia and crimson clover is a reasonable substitue in rotational grazing going south. I'm right on the line between fescue and bahia, but the NRCS guy tells me bahia will do better in my sandy soil.

What a cutie!

We only have about 12.5 acres here. I just realized I cut it a little short at the top. It's actually right outside this picture at the top. The rest of it is right.
But we have 3 cows and 3 horses . The horses stay at a neighbors but I would really like to keep one at the house. One of the cows is a big Jersey and the other two are angus crosses. You can see some of our land is wooded. We have two ponds. The purple lines outline the holler. There is the barn and it has a 6 ft fence in a triangular area that was built for my deer many years ago and now houses the goats. I don't really know how to make it more efficient. We have good pasture, a lot of yellow clover.

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Hello Agman and everyone! I'm new to the forum and ranching. In times past i had a gentlemens farm and raised some Angus's just for our own meat. Now, we have just moved to our new place in eastern Washington, zone 5, about 20" of moisture. We have approx 40 acres of pasture (30 acres plus a 10 acre upper pasture) and the rest(100 acres) is a combination of thinned and managed forest land. Our pasture slopes gently to the south and has not been touched for over 10 years. It is really a hodgepodge of grasses and different weeds...mostly weeds. I had been planning to rennovate about 10 acres of the pasture at a time. But then i found this thread, and boy am i jazzed about Intensive management so i might do more. In addition we have 5 acres of subirrigated pasture that grows all the time. I know enough to be dangerous, but i just clicked with you Agman, and how you think. I really think similiar. If you don't mind, i would like to put out some questions and letting you know what i am planning. I really want to plan this right and ultimately use the pasture to its full potential.

So here goes:

I am planning to rennovate the pasture and i am getting different opinions how to do it. First off, we have a very nice carbon layer, with a PH of 6.5. The extension agent thinks i should plant oats to help kill the existing weeds this spring, and then plant the grass this fall. He recommends an intermediate wheat grass which looks like it is OK, but it is pretty spendy. In talking with some of the ol boys here and the feed store, they recommend spraying the weeds after they bud out a bit this spring, and then harrow the ground a bit to break up the soil (it is easy to dig) a bit, then plant the seed, and then a light harrow again to lightly cover the seed. They recommend a grass mixture that works in this area. 20% Metal Broan Grass, 20% Crown Royal Orchard, 20% Fawn Tall Fescue, 20% Perineal Rye grass, 20% Annual Rye grass.

So question on this. I have always liked a mixture, so i am leaning this way. It seems that the boys are recommending what you do Agman. does this sound right? Should i put in any clover? Or wait? After it comes up, they recommend that it is not grazed the first year, and to let it go to seed in the fall and let it naturally reseed itself to help fill in? Agman, i know that you like to clip the tops before it goes to seed but that is in an actively grazed area in rotation. What do you guys think?

Fencing: Permimeter fence...am planning a 5 wire HT fence. Is this OK? I haven't seen any design on this thread for those. I am desigining the Paddocks now, but wouldn't mind a critique when i am done. In designing them, i will try to keep the rows parallel with each other, is there any magic formula for paddock width? I will follow to the letter the single wire fence for the paddocks and the strand wire for managing the rotations.

How and when to buy cattle?: Ultimately i would like to have a similiar operation with cow and calf. I would start slow, and then add to the heard as it grows and we have room. I remember the recommendation of buying a heard of heifers, getting them bred with a bull that i would like, and then start culling as i get more experience. I do have 5 acres of sub irrigated pasture that does not need to be irrigated that i can graze right now. I was thinking that i would get some initial heifers this fall ? The pasture would not be stockpiled which is where i would graze them this winter. As i am starting out without any real constraints on what i do, what would be the best way to build my herd? Right now, my neighbors runs about 100 head of Angus but he is very tradional on how he feeds them. Should i consider buying from him?

I've asked so many questions, but i feel that i am gaining ground little by little. I'm excited about raising these cattle!

Have lots of other questions, but they can wait. Thanks to you all!

my best,

Jim

southerngurl,

I am unclear with the property description. What is unclear is whether the 12+ acres is contiguous? I see what I refer to as a pan handle with the red border. Additionally I see your deer barn area. What I find hard to decipher is the black line that is around a much larger area. I understand the "hollar". Is the pan handle area a fenced area within the black lines and does the outlined in black area make up the 12+ acres? Thanks

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

Gymno

Welcome to the forum!

As you may be aware you are outside my comfort zone with the 20 inches of annual rain and zone 5.

I will assist you where I can but we need to eat this elephant one mouthful at a time. I suggest we start with discussing the perimeter fence. High tensile fencing is the cheapest fence that I am aware that will contain animals. The key to a good fence is properly placed and braced posts of quality materials. Combine the fence with a high output fence charger and your animals should remain where they belong. Therefore I would start with the perimeter fence. In between fencing you can concentrate of planting and growing the forages. IMO some folks make a mistake of trying to grow what is perceived ideal for their animals without giving regard to how it will survive and produce on their farm. I think it is easier to adapt the cattle to your place than it is to convert the farm to a crop that does not want to produce in your soil. Observing what grows on the shoulder of the nearby roads really is not a bad idea. I am aware that the Willamette Valley is one of the best grass growing areas in the USA and I know you are north east of there with some significant weather differences. What I am leading up to ask is for you to determine if KY 31 fescue will thrive at your location. I am wanting to determine what grass will grow like a weed but have a lot of protein while doing so on your place.

We can continue this project over time if that agrees with you.

PS...do you have access to a tractor and a rotary cutter (brush hog) ?

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

Yes, the black lines are the perimeter fence. The panhandle area is our driveway and yard.

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southerngurl,

Is the plant called medic the same as your yellow clover?
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...ed=0CDgQ9QEwBg

Do you have grasses growing also?

From the aerial view my guess is that only 40 plus % of your place is not heavily shaded or in woods. What I see is a lot of individual trees that are scattered. To increase your pasture acreage and to promote forage growth what are you thoughts of thinning the trees to create what would resemble golf course fairways? How much of a perimeter fence do you have around the perimeter of the total acreage?

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

Thanks for the welcome Agman. I'm very pleased to have found this thread and the people behind it!

I will check on how the KY 31 Fescue does here. Am actually going to an Ag fair later today. My understanding is that the mix these guys were reccomending does well. Typically we get very nice grass and it begins to dry out in the mid July - August timeframe. a bit like you. On our property, our trees are big and green. We have lots of Pine and Fir, with the occasional Cedar. One of the reasons i like it here is because of the Green and that it doesn't rain all the time! I'll get back to you on the grass.

As i have put in quite a bit of fence before, i was using a 4' field fence around our house area, but that would be way to expensive to put around the entire property. So i am considering the 5 strand (more or less) HT fence. I would put in solid corners with double posts (6" treated posts) like the manufact reccomend and the line posts that you have been talking about. Would love to find some steel I beams! If i do this it seems it would make a good perimeter fence? QUestion about Electric.....Is a good Solar charger good enough for this? Or do i need to get power to a line charger?

I do have a Kubota 35 HP tractor with a heavy duty brush hog, landscape rake, box , and a back blade (used for snow removal) ? Just need to learn how to and when to properly use it for grass.


Thanks again.

Jim

Solar will likely be too small unless you make one up. For your ackerage youll need a bunch of joules. Solar chargers are usually rated in sizes like 30 ackers., but that guy is dreaming. Those are usually a fraction of a joule. Youll want 6 to 10 joules to keep them in, especially powering poly wire partitions. A large charger is more forgiving to shorts from grass and small fence failures as well. Now some of the mid size chargers like stayfix 6 joule have the option of battery clips or 110 plug, adn come with both in the box. I have the stayfix 3 and it does have both. You could find the amps and watts of what ever charger you are buying and geta proper deep cell battery for that charger for a 20 to 30 run to full discharge, then get a solar panel rated at the proper wattage to fully charge your battery in one normal day of sunlight for your area. Then you would have a home built solar charger that you know will do the job. My 3 stayfix 3 needs a minimum 30 watt solar panel and I think 600 amp hour (not cranking amp) deep cell battery for 20 days, just FYI. Now I am stating those numbers from 18 months old memory, so it should be close but not exact. 18 months ago I called stayfix and talked to their engineering dept, they helped me with the numbers. I priced at pannel on ebay at about $100 shipped, then you need a charge controller about $30, and a battery, anywhere from $80 and up depending on how big its "gass tank" is.

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I aim to make it the most organic productive 1/3 acre in southwest Missouri
With a 20 acre plot to be added in 3 years or so

It does look like the Medic yes.

Yes there are grasses, fescue and bermuda plus who a little of this and that.

We have a little more pasture than it looks like in the aerial it seems. You can tell the pic was taken late in the day. There are a few less trees in the fields as we have had a few die and lost some in the ice storm. That said, I'm not sure on thinning a few out.

Not sure I understand your last question.

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How much of a perimeter fence do you have around the perimeter of the total acreage?

I am asking is the fence in place around the entire perimeter of your property?

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

Thanks brbizwiz for the feedback. Went to a regional AG show today and talked to the gallagher rep on this and he said that with the deep cell battery and solar panel that it would work just fine. Once i get some final distances, i will get more specific. Seems like a lot of people on this thread like the Stayfix so i will look into that as well. The good news is i have an added panel on our RV that i don't use so i think i will rob that and put together a system for it....

Jim

Yes, other than the driveway.

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Hollerhaven, sorry. I don't get the email notifications when anyone posts (even though I'm subscribed to the thread...) so I'm just getting to your question. Since the start we've culled 5-7 of the original herd. No new additions yet. I'm working about 40 cow/calf pairs--with calves of various ages.

ALL of these most recent calves belong to THE bull and he's doing great. Thanks for asking. Next time I remember to take the camera to the pasture with me, I'll take a shot of him too, so you can see how he's developed.

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Godsgapeach

“There are two ways to get enough: one is to accumulate more and more. The other is to desire less.”

–GK Chesterton

Godsgapeach

Thanks for the reply - The calves look real nice. I am anxious to see how big they get and to see if you get any good replacement heifers.

Thanks for sharing the pics of the power flex post that had a run in with the bush hog. Amazing the small amount of damage.

I believe that the bulk of the Winter is about to be behind me. I see a lot of new green tint as I look over the paddocks. Here is what the herd is grazing on today. I am posting this so that the condition of the animals can be seen as they come out of Winter. No creep feeding or grain has been fed. The cows and the offspring are living off grass and mineral supplement, no other feed. I had 3 new calves when I went to the farm this afternoon and the animals seem to me to be in decent enough body condition to continue to breed back quickly. This pic has animals on various ages distributed over the paddock.

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

Hello all... well my plan for getting our cattle is evolving, slow but sure. As Agman sez, "eat the elephant one bite at a time".

I am one who like to do things right, but sometimes "right" is a bit too expensive, or maybe i need to phase our implementation.

So this is my thinking now, and i would value your input and critique. To recap: I have about 40 acres of pasture, 5 acres is subirrigated and will grow grass up to your armpits and is good grass. The other is dryer, and gives only one cutting of hay a year (if you hay). It hasn't been farmed for over 20 years, but the soil is good...and there is a lot of weeds. I want to maximize the grass, and first off become a good 'Grass farmer" so i've decided that i need to rennovate the 35 acres. Can't afford to do it all at once, and don't need to. So here is my plan.

1. This spring, i will spray the weeds to kill them and let what grass is there to grow. I won't put any livestock on it, but let what grass is there to grow. I will cut it so that nothing comes up to go to seed. THis fall i will harrow the ground, plant seed, and harrow it again. Most people here say this is the very best time to plant grass. I was going to do it this spring, but because of the weed killing, i was discouraged from doing that. I will only have the 10 acres sprayed, the rest needs to wait because of funds. I would not put any cattle on this for a year. I think i could let it grow next year, and then use that a potential stockpile for winter? I would then fence the paddocks as Agman suggests. Am still in the planning stage on where they go.

2. I will fence in the perimeter of my sub irrigated field. Unlike the dryer fields, i cannot make long straight paddocks as Agman suggests, so it will be more of a challenge to divide this up. essentially it has a pond (that will dry out in August) in the middle of it (like a doughnut). I will wire off the pond as well. I have a surface well completed and get water, so i will install the initial part of the system so that i can water in this area. My goal would be to have about 5 acres where i could start the cattle.

3. As i will only have about 5 acres ready this spring (if i can get everything done) i was thinking of getting a couple of pregant heiffers from my neighbor who runs about 100 head of registered medium size Angus. He is becoming very helpful and intruiqed about the rotational grazing locally. So i think i could start there, maybe with 2 heifers in april? In a couple of years the herd could grow either naturallly or by addition, based on how much pasture i can get completed. I could also wait a year and get more completed, but seems like a waste as i have such good grass in this area.

THoughts from the pros here please? Looking at all options and value your advice.

Thanks....

Jim

3.

Unless you have some sort of pernicious weed that isn't killed by clipping, I'd skip the spraying. Mow it when it flowers, before it goes to seed. Regular cuttings will not only kill the weeds and improve the grasses, but will build up the soil due to the clippings decaying right there.

I find that you can run electric fence so cheaply that it's worth it to start now and move the fence later. You will make some mistakes, but they'll be small and relatively easy to fix. Why spend money to mow a pasture when you can make money by letting the animals do it? I'm no expert, but every MIG source that I've read says the pasture will improve with nothing more than a management change. No need to spend money up front on seed etc especially when you can't utilize all the additional growth.