any ideas for converting to rotational grazing?

Thanks for the link, Agman. So far my seed guys around here haven't been able to find Alice. Thankfully one of them called me to clarify before he ordered the wrong thing. Can you point me in the direction of a source for it? Or did you just go through Barenbrug? or Bestforage? I went ahead and pitched out the Alyce seed--figured it couldn't hurt anything.

Daddy is really proud of the calves and of all the work that's getting done. Yes, we still have the monstrous cows--I think his reasoning was since they weren't eating more than before, he'd get one more calf out of them. It IS on the list of to do's though before we start rationing the forage.

__________________
Godsgapeach

“There are two ways to get enough: one is to accumulate more and more. The other is to desire less.”

–GK Chesterton

Here is a source and they will pay 1/2 of the shipping if you buy 50 lbs or more. 50 lbs should do 16 acres once you get the Herd seeder set. As you are aware you need to get the seed out and possibly let the cattle walk the seed in since the weather is wet.
http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=340

I am pleased your Dad is happy with the changes.

Just a suggestion, check around and see if anyone in your area is ceasing a commercial Angus operation and try to obtain some cows that may be destined for market and select some smaller framed cows to produce you some heifers out of the new bull. There is a family near me that will be disposing of their entire small herd (roughly 20 or less cows) due to a death in the family. I have not seen the herd but I know the herd was well managed and that this is a closed herd except for the bull(s).

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

That was the same site I'd found, Agman. Thanks again.

I'll have to look around to find a commercial Angus farm--most in the immediate area are mixed like ours. I'll see what I can find. Great suggestion!

__________________
Godsgapeach

“There are two ways to get enough: one is to accumulate more and more. The other is to desire less.”

–GK Chesterton

godsgapeach,
Today I was repairing some Winter damage to the pastures and bursting manure pats to distribute the fertilizer for the Spring growth and recalled your inquiry regarding the Alice clover. When I moved to the paddock with the oldest stand of the Alice clover I took a pic so you can see how it comes through the Winter. The Alice clover is the most prolific clover variety that I have planted.

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

That looks GREAT, Agman! Do you know about how long ago that was planted? And that just broadcast and cow-tramped in--Right?

I spent yesterday pounding in PowerFlex posts--might look like a linebacker before we get them all in, but they're going in pretty easily since we've had so much rain. We do have a lot of rocks so they'd be more troublesome if the ground was dry.

If anybody else plans to use them, in my experience, I've found that using a standard post driver works better than a spring loaded one. The posts have so much give that the spring driver takes way longer to pound the post to the desired depth.

I took the Alice info to the local seed guy from the mom and pop shop we buy from. He'd told me that Pennington had "never heard of it." (Pennington Seed is here in town.) I told him Pennington's Alyce page does say, "not to be confused with ALICE" so they do know it exists, but don't carry it. He just asked how I knew it'll grow here. I just said, "Well we're going to find out."

Oh one more question--on your hairpins. I know you told me to give them an extra loop so they'll stay on the wire and not fling off into the pasture. HOW do you twist them? I've tried several things and looked again at the pictures you've shown but I keep coming out with pretzels.

Thanks again for everything!

__________________
Godsgapeach

“There are two ways to get enough: one is to accumulate more and more. The other is to desire less.”

–GK Chesterton

Godsgapeach,
The Alice clover in the pic was planted in the Fall of 2008. It was only broadcast.

Pennington headquarters knows the difference. They paid 1/2 the price to replace the Alyce they initially supplied to purchase the correct Alice. My dealer picked up the other 1/2. I had the loss of the time and potential use of the failed effort. As you may know I planted the Alyce and lost it to cold weather. Alyce is a warm weather clover. A letter was sent out by Pennington to inform the dealers that Alyce and Alice were not the same.
On the hairpins. Bet a small shanked screwdriver and by holding the handle place the shank adjacent and parallel to the fence wire. Put the eye of the hairpin over both the shank and the fence wire. Use your other hand and grasp one leg of the hairpin and simple twist the leg around the shank and fence wire to form a cursive e. I can do this free hand. If you lack the hand strength simply get a small diameter and short length of tubing and put the leg of the hairpin inside the tube and use the tube for leverage to form the wrap. It is important to keep the eye of the cursive e large enough that the fence wire can move freely.

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

Agmantoo. How do you manage the clover to prevent it from overtaking the fescue? I have some very large areas(wet spots) that the grass appears to have died out. This is an established stand. It's over thirty years old. Very wet for the last three years in the ozarks white clover did not go dormant in the summer nor the fescue.

ds40

Keeping the clover under control is difficult as you know.

The easiest thing to do is to spray with 2-4-D during the dormant summer slump of the fescue and then to heavily reseed the fescue as soon as the season permits. I dislike doing that and I have tried grazing the clover into submission but with little success. Also I have tried to suppress the clover with a disc and then reseeding again with excessive grass seed. If you happen to hit the weather just right this will work to some extent. Nothing works as good as the herbicide. I am finally getting a lot of earthworms and I intend to keep them so I am trying to learn how to get along with the clover. The cattle stay fat on the clover but since I cannot stockpile it a problem exists. Right now I am overseeding the clover with fescue trying to establish more grass. Fescue seed are plentiful as I harvest my own so I put out a lot of seed with my fingers crossed as I try to crowd the clover.

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

FINALLY!!! Not done by a long shot, but today we got the cows totally off the paddock area. They're not at all happy about it and I probably won't be able to move tomorrow after chasing a few all over the place.

We're down to pounding in the rest of the powerflex posts and running 3 strands of wire before all the paddocks are ready to go.

The Alice seed got here today and there's no danger of having any grain drill rows--too many persimmon stobs would keep us repairing more than planting.

And the persimmons are beginning to leaf out.

Agman--question (as usual). How much leaf should I let grow before I spray the Remedy? Right now the persimmons are mostly showing leaf buds, but it won't be long before they're covered!

Plenty more to be done, but I'm pretty proud of what we've accomplished so far!

__________________
Godsgapeach

“There are two ways to get enough: one is to accumulate more and more. The other is to desire less.”

–GK Chesterton

godsgapeach

Let the persimmons leaf on out to a near full size leaf but while the leaves are still tender spray. Get the leaves as saturated as possible but not to the point of run off. Remember the Hook is the last thing added but make certain the solution gets mixed thoroughly then start applying.

Do I understand from your above post that you have the partition fences with 3 strands of high tensile wire?

I think that you have crossed a major hurdle and that you are well on your way now! I know you feel relieved to have reached this point.

PS...it is essential to get the cattle to where they respect the electrified fence. You may have to limit the distribution of the fence charger output to just the paddock the animals are in initially. Move them the first few days before they get to wanting more forage so they will not "test" the fence. They will train readily and associate your frequenting the paddocks with an upcoming move. Within a week to 10 days they will be standing huddled awaiting patiently for your arrival. I try to move about the same time each day. Repeating what I have said before......you can tell if you are allocating the correct amount of area to be grazed by observing the cattle. A calm non bawling move and they met their needs in the area just completed. Just make certain that your expectations were met also in that enough forage was consumed and not wasted. Standing and bawling and then rushing into a new area by the herd and they were dissatisfied from the previous allocation. Within a brief time the whole sequence will become "old hat".

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

Here's what we've done so far...

The yellow is 5 strand barbwire. The red is new 5-strand hot wire. The blue is the new single strand that's complete and is keeping the girls on the back of the field.



They learned to respect the hot wire a couple of weeks ago when we finished the 5-strand and the little section of single strand that angles off at the bottom of the lot (on the far right). Several of them had to test it a time or two, but I think they're believers now.

And it's taken me a while to figure out what you meant by 3 strands. To clarify--no. I mean I've got to partition off 4 more paddocks on the creek side (lay out 3 single strands) and all the wire will be put out. The lane and the 4 paddocks on the road side are laid out already and the wire just has to go up on the posts. Does that make better sense?

And YES! I am relieved. I took the day off to take the kids to the UGA Vet school open house, but I'll be back at it full throttle tomorrow. I can't wait to post pics of things in action!

__________________
Godsgapeach

“There are two ways to get enough: one is to accumulate more and more. The other is to desire less.”

–GK Chesterton

Speaking of respect, I have some cows that are in need of some training. I am just starting the rotation and I have one bred heifer with horns that has somehow figured out how to knock down the temporary wire and let her friends into the new grass. Not sure how she is doing it. My horses have sincere respect for the wire. I see them jump if they accidentally touch it.

I have been real persnickety about my fencing using insulators, so not sure if that the ohm range is proper for my fencing. I have a mix of 5 - strand Ht and a 6th hot top wire braided horse rope to improve visibility for my horses. My lower 2 hot lines go thru a kenco current limiter to reduce voltage loss. I disconnected that and saw no change in voltage on the non-load limited lines. I am using a mix of wood and fiberglass posts, with black tube insulators on the hot lines at the wood posts. Short ones for a line post and long ones for around the corner posts. All HT graded insulators, I believe.

I am using a Parmak Magnum 12 that is giving me around 3.7 -4.2 K volts (measured with a meter). Open circuit is 9.5K volts so that seems to spec. According to the parmak info my fencing must be around 400 ohms which does not seem right. I see leakage of 1-2K volts to my non-energized and non-grounded intermediate lines. Is that normal?

Do I need to move up to a more powerful charger like a SE-4 or the Range Master? I kind of like being on 12v to help avoid a power line lightning strike.
An SE-4 at 400 ohms should give me around 6000 volts. Rangemaster looks about the same.

Could I have a ground problem? I see no difference if I push my meter into the ground vs attaching to the ground rods, and I see the same consistent voltage reading as I walk the entire fence.

Thoughts? Lots of questions...

John

Hogleg, I don't know what anybody else would advise, but I do know the Parmak Rangemaster packs quite a wallop. That's the one we went with because I know we've got some hard headed cows that would need some powerful convincing. So far it's working well.

On Saturday when I got out to work, a cow was on the wrong side of the hot wire staring at the rest of the herd. Apparently she'd been down in the creek when we pushed the rest out of the paddock area. I raised up the wire on the pvc pipe (like Agman has mentioned earlier in the thread), but she wanted no part of it even though we walked off and let her think about it for a couple of hours. I finally ended up unclipping the wire from 2 more posts, dropping the pvc, and putting the wire on the ground. After another 30-45 minutes she finally walked across it.

Training them to use the pvc method is my next challenge...

__________________
Godsgapeach

“There are two ways to get enough: one is to accumulate more and more. The other is to desire less.”

–GK Chesterton

John
You need a Stafix Fence Compass or equivalent. This device is a multimeter designed to measure the output of fence chargers and to also help you locate ground faults. It is not cheap but if cared for will last a long time. Problems can be located promptly and you can determine the voltage on the fence. It has been my experience that a minimum of 3500 volts at the farthest location is required to hold cattle. Obviously more is better! You did not state what type of metr you are using to get your reading. A regular multimeter should not be use to measure fence charger output. Also, how many acres do you have within the energized fence? My guess is you have a short on one or more of the hot wire to the wooden post for the non hot wires to pick up power. I have seen the black tube insulators cut through from the inside when the high tensile is tightened when used on corners.

PS...A non loaded output reading of a fence charger is misleading. By law the output of a fence charger is limited to 10,000 volts after a child was harmed in the late 90's. It is the amperage at the 10,000 volts that makes the attention really perk up. The semiconductors in the more expensive chargers are very high current handling components as compared to the cheap chargers and that drives the price up. The units are priced too high for what we get regardless! It is the very short duration of the spark that avoids the field fires that the old weed burners were known for.

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

Thanks Agman - Will look into that short locator. I disconnected 1/2 of the run and the voltage went to 7000 volts, so I now know which way to go to look for the short. These high voltage shorts are hard to diagnose, and I have an electrical background to boot.

Here is the meter I am using -

http://www.tractorsupply.com/electri...tester-3600134

It looked similar to the Kencove one that they said was quite accurate.

Here are the short tubes -

http://www.tractorsupply.com/fencing...-of-25-3601229

Here are the long tubes -

http://www.kencove.com/fence/Wood+Po...detail_I40.php

Used both Dare and Zareba brands of these, not the kencove ones.

I will look into the shorting situation.

I have around 12 acres of fenced paddock. Probably better than 10,000 feet of Ht wire, plus 2000 feet of horsebraid rope.

John

John
How many conductors are in the horsebraid rope? I use the polywire with 9 strands of stainless steel.

I do not know the manner you have the rope and the HT wire connected together and to the charger. I would run the HT wire for the first conductor and then connect the HT wire to the Horsebraid. It can be difficult to get the rope or poly to contact to the HT wire. Normally I will wrap the poly around the HT wire, similar to the knot of a hangmans noose, in an attempt to get as many of the fine wires contacting the 12 1/2 gauge HT wire as possible. There is a lot of loss in the fine wires in the poly/rope as the circumfrence is what controls the resistance along with the material of a wire. Provided you can get 7000 volts around the 12 acres you should be fine.

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

Agman,

I use the 9 strand polywire with stainless conductors. I bought the polyrope clamps at kencove that bond to it tightly. I run 4 hot conductors, and 2 non-hot. From the bottom up I have 4 spaced at 6 in , then one at 8 in and lastly one at 10 in. The first 2 HT are hot, but current limited, then a non-hot HT, then a hot HT, another non-hot HT then the polyrope. I use the middle hot HT to insure good conductivity around the entire perimeter, and feed each poly rope from the ht at corners. The voltage measured at the poly is identical to the HT voltage.

I still have some of my older t-post, 17 ga fencing with yellow t-post insulators that is not yet taken down. I disconnected some of that and saw the voltage go up. As soon as possible, I will take that down and I am guessing that my voltage problem will go away.

Thanks so much for the help. 7K volts is my target. Funny, 3.5-4k volts is enough to get my respect

John

HI everyone. and a special thanks to "doc" agmantoo. You deserve an honorary doctorate for your free professorship. You are providing an invaluable service to us all. I have spent the last week reading this entire thread. I have many of my questions answered especially about stock piling for winter and drought.
Like agman, I come from a postage stamp home growing up. I am in my mid thirties and have always dreamed of being a farmer. 3 years ago my wife and i bought 5 acres and built a house. Last year I put up 5 strand ht wire on powerflex posts around the perimeter of about 3.5 acres. I have an option on 26 adjacent acres and possibly another 140. SO we will see how this all goes over the next couple of years.
I did purchase 2 red polled heifers last fall, and took them through the winter on stockpiled forage. A hodgepodge of fescue, orchard grass,and clover. They dont seem to like orchard grass after it matures.
This spring I planted brome grass and some kenstar red clover. I am hoping that works out better than the OG. But after reading this thread, maybe Ill just let it be and let the fescue take back over. I intend to supplement winter stock pile with some cereal rye and brassicas. I have a pull behind broadcast spreader (it is the pto type, but has a cast iron axle and rubber tires to power it rather than a tractor pto), and a badboy mower that serves as my tractor.
Anyway, I just wanted to chime in and thank everyone for their contributions. This has been a great read, probably more informative than my last two years of reading the stockman grass farmer (which I truly love, and look forward to each issue).
I am in southwest Missouri, as I see a few other posters here are. My eventual goal is grass fed and finished. I also hope to direct market. I will likely supplement getting to that point with feeder calf sales. Because I will need both portions of land available to me in order to direct market. But if you don't set your sights high, you may trip over them .
Please everyone keep up the good work. Ill try to post a few pics later. Oh, I found this thread, by searching for bottle calfs. I bought 4 of them 4 weeks ago. I just introduced them to pasture today. I will probably cut them 2 one bottle feeding per day, and hopefully they will learn from the reds how to eat grass. They seem very interested in each other. I have them separated but in side by side paddocks. I may combine them tomorrow. I am hoping my red girls will be ready for breeding late next month. I haven't noticed them cycling yet thought, and I check them every day. So it may be June.

Tom

I forgot to mention, I want to be as organic as possible. I intend to use no inputs other than seed and lime. I have spread about 2000 pounds of lime in the last month and I will likely do another 3000. My soil ph is around 5.8 to 6 according to a hand held meter. My last soil sample is 2 years old so I am due for another one of those. Also I spray bokashi liquid on my field at a 20 to 1 ratio every month. We make it by composting our table scraps with bokashi enzyme. It is supposed to help the healthy soil creatures grow. It seems as though the earth worms have increased since starting it. This stuff is also supposed to be great for getting rid of bad bacterias, and it is good for animal consumption. We will see how it works out. It costs me virtually nothing, and I enjoy being out in my field working, so the spraying is no big deal either.
I also have 7 black jersey giant chickens to help keep flys and such under control. I started with 25, but I learned a few hard lessons about raising chickens from chicks starting in the wet rainy fall. I do have 50 rode island reds coming tomorrow. I should do better with them. I learned hard and fast that chicks don't do cold or wet well.

Tom

I'll weight in on the electric fence testing. I have a stayfix tester very nice spendy units. If you make a mess of your fence by using the black plastic tubing for wrap around insulators, these testers are nearly worthless. But when you go back and do it right with the end strainer insulators, these stayfix testers are the bomb. And if you buy one of the pricey chargers from stayfix, the tester can work as a remote to turn off the charger and turn it back on.
I always check on my animals wearing my Muck boots, it is usually wet or what ever, so they work well. Well I have gotten into a lazy habit of touching the energized fence when I need to to step over a poly wire. Well today I went out to move the girls over closer to the new bottle calves, and I had tennis shoes on. Well lesson learned tennis shoes plus hand on wooden end post equal seeing heaven briefly. I wish I had bought that big charger, that my tester could turn off remotely.
The folks over at power-flex fence where very helpful so I pretty much bought everything from them. It didn't hurt that they are only an hour away so I could save shipping.