any ideas for converting to rotational grazing?

wstevenl
Here are a couple of pics taken when I moved the herd this evening.
This is today's All you can eat buffet

Here is a few of the dinner guest

Here is the crowd milling around

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

Looks great, Agman! Did you get some of that rain I requested be sent your way?

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Godsgapeach

“There are two ways to get enough: one is to accumulate more and more. The other is to desire less.”

–GK Chesterton

godsgapeach
We got a heavy shower last night but the major rain managed to skirt around us. The forecast is good for afternoon thunder storms so maybe we will get lucky.
Regarding the persimmon sprouts, has your efforts made an impact on their elimination?

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

I actually think the persimmons like it when they're mowed back. They seem to come back with a vengeance! I've been trying to decide if hooking up a chain to the roots in the middle of a stand and snatching them up with a winch would be more successful.
The were just cut back a few weeks ago and now they're the greenest things I can see out in front of the house. It's very frustrating!

I've got some questions I'm working on for you as I'm prepping my fencing order. I'm hoping to get them to you in the next day or two.

It looks like I missed a bit of an uprising in the thread while we were out of town the last couple of weeks. I tried to keep up, but on very limited dial-up wasn't very successful. Then we had our own medical drama with my 14yo dd so that took priority, of course.

All I'll say in response is: I've seen first-hand that what you advise here on the site truly does work in practice--IMO, with great success! I'll stick with trusting your methods and recommendations and emulate them as much as possible, to the best of my ability.

As always, thanks for your assistance!

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Godsgapeach

“There are two ways to get enough: one is to accumulate more and more. The other is to desire less.”

–GK Chesterton

godsgapeach
When time permits go into the pasture and look at the persimmon sprouts at the point where the mower cut them off. I want to know if the bark appears as if the sprout was cut off with a pair of garden shears or if the sprout was beaten apart? What does the bark look like on the piece attached to the roots?

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

Here are some pics of the regrowth on the persimmons:






Looks like the bark is shattered but the regrowth is sometimes from the root and sometimes still from the shattered stobs. They're pretty persistent...

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Godsgapeach

“There are two ways to get enough: one is to accumulate more and more. The other is to desire less.”

–GK Chesterton

When you start rotating the herd and grazing them more densely, won't the cows eat the leaves off of the saplings and stress them? If we have any large weeds in a paddock (pig weed, horse weed, or lamb's quarter) the cows always strip off the leaves and eat the softer stems and seed head if there is one. They seem to go after most of those weeds before they eat much of the stuff that we planted on purpose.

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www.franciscanfamilyfarms.com
Chaffee, Mo

my cows never even think about eating lambs quarter

wish I had some of yours they would be really fat here


tjm

wstevenl, I've never known them to do anything with the persimmon saplings except use them as a belly scratcher. It doesn't matter if they're small and tender or not. I don't know if that will be any different once I get the rotations going. We'll see. ;>

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Godsgapeach

“There are two ways to get enough: one is to accumulate more and more. The other is to desire less.”

–GK Chesterton

godsgapeach, thanks for the pics. It appears that the rotary cutting did a decent task but that the persimmon sprouts are too determined. I took the liberty of contacting a friend that I made years ago when I was farming. He is extremely knowledgeable with herbicides. He in turn contacted someone in the industry and has replied to me that your best bet is to use a weed wiper or to spot spray with Remedy herbicide (http://www.dowagro.com/PublishedLite...romPage=GetDoc). Either method will only impact the persimmon sprouts if done properly. You obviously have a drastic situation and such problems call for drastic measures. Remedy has no withdrawal period for beef cattle grazing. My friend said that the persimmons, though not listed on the tree list, were a controlled species from one properly applied application.

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

Wow, Agman! Thanks for going to the trouble of checking with your friend. It is pretty a pretty dire situation. I'd bushhogged back in April or so and Daddy repeated it around July 4 and those pics are from yesterday. They do come back with a vengeance!

I will definitely track down the Remedy--we've got both a weed wiper and a sprayer for the back of the 4-wheeler.

Many thanks, as always!

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Godsgapeach

“There are two ways to get enough: one is to accumulate more and more. The other is to desire less.”

–GK Chesterton

Remedy is good stuff. I've never sprayed with it but have been using a basal application on scattered small trees, and some not so small. Don't have any persimmon so can't say about it, hedge, walnut, black and honey locust are done for the count. Bigger chinese elm occasionally are partially killed. Here is the complete label for Remedy Ultra, http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld7NR005.pdf Here is the main page they have the label for most chemicals, http://www.cdms.net/LabelsMsds/LMDef...spx?ms=1,2,3,4

godsgapeach,
I feel your pain! Your pictures of the persimmons could be from our pastures, that's exactly what ours look like thanks to previous owners' cutting. Remedy is on our list of things to do, also recommended by a neighbor farmer. I'm still trying the 'cut them to the ground with loppers and see what happens' experiment before I resort to Remedy, and may try one organic product just to see if it works (we're trying to stay as natural as possible).

We're in a terrible drought here (but we got rain today!), and those persimmons are the greenest, healthiest looking things in our pastures.

SusyTX I'm so sorry you're dealing with the same thing! I can tell you that lopping doesn't do a single thing to help--I've lopped, mowed, lopped, mowed and they just keep spreading. Underground there will be roots that can go up to 20 feet from a parent tree and sometimes up to 7 more shoots will come up at the end of the root. They're highly invasive!

I'm thankful to have hope for Agman's recommendation!

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Godsgapeach

“There are two ways to get enough: one is to accumulate more and more. The other is to desire less.”

–GK Chesterton

Are these real persimmon trees... that will eventually have fruit? We have a couple of big persimmon trees that the hogs love to be under in the fall but the rest of the year that area is mowed. I'll bet that if your cows are grazed in small enough paddocks, they will eat the leaves and other weeds too.

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www.franciscanfamilyfarms.com
Chaffee, Mo

We'll see when we get the rotations set up, wstevenl. They do bear persimmons and the deer, birds, and coyote love the fruits (that's part of the problem). When I was a kid there was a huge persimmon tree near the barn at the lot. I think it started the whole issue. I don't remember the random stands of saplings we have now.

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Godsgapeach

“There are two ways to get enough: one is to accumulate more and more. The other is to desire less.”

–GK Chesterton

I also have a persimmon tree that is large in the pasture. It bears fruit each year yet i only have a sprout or two that I can identify. I am not all that knowledgeable when it comes to IDing sprouts but I had the same question as to whether this is the same sapling that grows into the tree that I have. I even made a trip to where there is one sapling growing under the fence to make a comparison. The persimmon sapling at my place does not have the reddish tinge but that could be due to an age or location difference. I am confident that the Remedy application will do away with the plant regardless of specie.

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

Wondering myself, what Greg Judy's pastures look like now, I emailed him and after some conversation he sent me some pictures of his mob entering a new paddock.
This is not what most would consider a nice hayfield but my guess would be that the cattle enjoy it and it looks like they are keeping good body condition on it. This is not fertilized, clipped, drug, etc. just grazed and regrown.
This has all been mob grazed, trampled, and soiled as is being done now, but it will have plenty of time to regrow and will to so faster because of the mature root system. You'll notice some "weeds" but the majority of the tall stuff is red clover, from what I can tell.

Again, it may not be what some people would want, it's not as pretty as your uniform grass paddocks Agmantoo, but it is what it is.

Tonight I'm going to take a picture of an ungrazed paddock that has super tall foxtail and some pigweed then I'll take another one tomorrow after grazing it to show how they take care of the grass AND the weeds.

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www.franciscanfamilyfarms.com
Chaffee, Mo

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wstevenl
Greg Judy's cattle look great! He is in zone 5b if I am not mistaken. Whereas the clover in the picture is apparently in the peak of blooming mine has just finished maturing and the seed heads are drying. I am about to enter the most difficult month(Aug) of the year for my operation. In your conversations with Judy did he comment on how many acres he requires for a year to support a cow/calf to provide fresh forage in season and stockpiled feed when the paddocks are dormant?

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!