any ideas for converting to rotational grazing?

agmantoo Ideally in my mind, the best system would be two parallel fences 300 to 500 feet apart running for miles with a lane on one side and water every 1600 feet in the lane.


I just can not picture this in my mind......

can you explain...or a diagram

.in other post you said you do not use gates but a pvc pipe to raise the wire so cows walk under...so how do the cows get back in to the run to get to the water..


just trying to understand...I have 440 acres and some one is wanting to rent some of my land as i do not use it for the dairy heifer operation....this year I have 16 milk cows and 91 heifer calves....next year 16 cows and 150 calves....but will still have 200 acres I do not use...


might be able to rent out the 200 acres of land and use the rotational grazing for both


tjm

Let me try to explain first. If that is unclear I will attempt a sketch. Regardless, I will do my best to get across how it works.
Here are a few facts that we want to work into the "system'
1...we do not want the cattle to have to travel more than 800ft to get water. Therefore, if water is located every 1600 ft they are either leaving water or going to water that is within 800 ft worst case assuming water is available at the starting point which is usually the case.
2...with a permanent parallel fence placed 500 ft apart we can erect a single strand of wire on the inside of one of the permanent fences say 60 ft off and parallel to the permanent fence. This will be the lane. The lane is large enough to do double duty, it can lead to water and it can be grazed.
3...With 2 reels of polywire and some pigtail posts we can make two perpendicular temporary fences to form a paddock. This paddock formed by our setup can be any length we want and 440 ft in depth and with a 60 ft lane to one side.
4... if we were introducing cattle to grass that we had established ahead of time the first thing we would do is to graze the lane until we got to the 800ft mark. Each end of the lane would be closed off with wire or polywire. NOTE...At the beginning of our two very lengthy parallel permanent fences we would need a means of closing the opening and at the end of the parallel permanent fence we would also need a means of closing the opening.
5...after the herd grazed the lane, we would now make a paddock using the polywire. From the starting point we could go any distance we determined adequate from the start and allocate the paddock size to be consumed the next 24 hours. We would remove a hairpin holding the single lane wire and use a 7 ft PVC pipe with a V cut in one end and insert the PVC pipe over the fiberglass/poly post and lift the single lane wire up and place the wire in the V. The cattle can enter and exit the paddock to use the lane to access water.
6...After the cattle consume the allocated paddock, the second polyreel and pigtail posts are set up ahead of the last polywire and pigtail posts. The PVC pipe is moved to give access to the new paddock. The first cross polywire can be raised or can be partially rolled onto the reel to give the cattle access to the new ungrazed paddock then the polywire can be put back in place to prevent the cattle from back grazing. This process is repeated at whatever frequency the paddocks are to be rotated.
7...Once the cattle reach the end of the parallel fenced area the beginning area should have regrown. The cattle are moved back up the lane to the starting point and the process is repeated.

Obviously, having such a parallel fence setup with no end will not exist. However, with some planning a maze type setup can be accomplished and the cattle can be rotated over a farm regardless of the lay of the land.

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

if the wires are set 440 feet wide with water in the lane that is 60 ft wide and the two waters are 1600 ft apart

then if you step off that 1600 ft line in between the two waters in any direction left or right it will be farther then 800 ft to water


when at the far side of the field it is 440 FT wide it will be farther then 800 ft to water NOT 1240 but it will be farther

that is a smart idea to move the pvc gate also letting them walk and clean out from under the fence line also as they walk back and forth

You are correct. It all depends on where the animal is when it decides to go to water and where you place the PVC pipe. If the animal is in the lane then it will not have to travel more than 800 ft. My cattle will go in small groups or individually with this layout. I apologize for any confusion this may have created.

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

no need to apologize...you are helping us..i just could not get it in my mind how the run and the paddock worked with out gates and only walking 800 feet to water


I now understand completely

if you had a 1600 fence line just move the water 400 to 600 feet from the cross fence instead of at the start as you said were most people have it to start with


like cross fence 600 ft water then 600 ft next water

what do you use for water troughs what company


your pvc idea really cuts down on the walking if you had put gates in the cows would have to walk even farther to water doubling back


one other thing with out gates how do you drive your 4 wheeler around if you want drive to the back 40 to look things over


thanks a lot for your time

I have been to grazing school but they just did not go into great detail........on the fencing part



tjm


thanks tjm

I have two brands of waterers, Ritchie and Behlan. They are expensive IMO at about $630 each for just the waterer itself. In order to control costs and to minimize maintenance I have kept the number of waterers to a minimum.
Using the four wheeler with the single strand fencing is not a problem. At the fence, in a location more to the center between posts, I drive the ATV up close to the fence and dismount on the throttle side, then stick my big foot on top of the wire and press the wire to the ground. I then reach over to the throttle and hit it with my finger and the atv leaps forward and is across the fence. I have done this so many times it is second nature. I have read that in Australia vehicles are fitted with a long length of PVC pipe attached to the undercarraige. The PVC pipe then protrudes to the front of the vehicle and is bowed upward (attached back to the roof of the vehicle) resembling the bow of a boat. The vehicle is driven perpendicular to the fence and the bowed PVD pipe rides the fence to the ground and the fence is driven over without leaving the vehicle.

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

I have one of the japanese trucks why I asked and saw the pipe under the truck thing work on a Suzuki Samurai only difference he used steel pipe and it would wear the wire into every once in a while be cause he always when in between the same two post


but i could not figure how to get the tractor and bush hog I have two tractors both with cabs..9 to 10 ft tall back to the back 40 with out gates

how to you get the tractor and bush hog though lay something heavy on the fence

do you use spring tensioners on the fence



thanks again for your time


tjm

When I need to move the tractor or other machinery into a paddock I use the pigtail step-in posts and anchor the wire to the ground. I will go to the posts on either side of where I plan on crossing and pull the hairpin from the posts to create more slack. This is the reason that I twist the hairpin in a cursive e around the high tensile wire to prevent losing the hairpin. I even drive the Cat track loader across the wire with no problems.
Spring tensioners are an idea that upfront seems to have merit but in actual use are not necessary. The single strand wire does not need to be tight. It is the shock that the fence delivers and not the strength of the wire that prevents the cattle from breaching the fence. Do not buy tensioners, save your money to buy a high end fence charger.

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

thanks been a big help



thanks for your time

tjm

First, Steveo, what's wrong with leasing land? and what's wrong with contract or custom grazing? so the guy leases land that is fallow and does a good job grazing other peoples herds.... so?? Of course grazing and long rest periods are going to leave the land better than leaving it fallow or row cropping.

Second, I believe he does own cattle. He has, I believe, South Polled cattle, mostly St. Croix sheep, and Tamworth hogs. He custom grazes other peoples herds and they make up the mob together. He also allows land owners to keep a few cows in the mob in order to keep their interest and keep them happy to lease to him. They get to bring their golfing/business buddies out to see "their" cattle and he gets to lease land knowing that the landowner is excited about what he is doing.

Your last comment really confuses me.... You agree that he's probably around alot more than 1 week a month, but you think that his high school aged helper is doing all the work and can't make good judgements about how/when to move the cows? Your description of how to judge what allotment to give the cows is right on. You must look at what they ate the day before and think about how the forage might be different than the previous paddock. You may also be thinking about how muddy it is, if it's going to rain, etc. But, you say this so sarcastically. Are you saying that his helper couldn't possibly do it? Judy doesn't do it? It isn't done well enough? Do you think the "helper" is doing all the work? I would find it hard to believe that a high school kid is making all the moves. I'm sorry I'm just not following you.
I alternate moving our cows with my brother in-law when he's not too busy with his job and we now have a very similar judgement about paddock sizes... why is this not possible for Judy?
I don't know why you say it's not a hands on operation.... that just seems ridiculous. Do you think he has some kind of self moving fencing system like an automated hog barn?

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Chaffee, Mo

I believe all I can do is agree to disagree. Hopefully this thread will return to the educational thread it has been.
Concider my case closed
and sorry to have raised anyones blood pressure

SteveO

Anyone else have any idea what SteveO's point was?
He's apparently unable to explain it.

By the way, my blood pressure isn't raised. I'm super proud of all you fellow grass farmers after going to St. Louis this weekend to see Food INC. It was great.

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Chaffee, Mo

This topic was hot and heavy at the begining of the year. Now is the time to start grazing and you can make mistakes and it will all go away come fall or winter and can order supplies and they can be a day late or if the familiy has an outing you can spend the day from the farm and enjoy . In the spring things happen to fast and a mistake of growing grass will not be changed till winter. Start now for next year and you will be way way farther ahead .

Farm 36,
I see that you are located in Wi and maybe your season is far behind mine here in NC. I am now entering the most difficult time of year for my operation. The latter part of July and all of August is a hot dry period for us. I find this the most challenging time as a year around rotational grazer. It has been roughly 7 weeks since we had an significant rain. Just getting the pigtail posts pushed into the ground has become a task. The pastures are dry and when you walk on the forage it makes a crunching noise. Had I taken the attitude that Greg Judy describes when forage is abundant I would be in a world of hurt when it comes to feeding the herd. Instead, I have been conservative and I have stockpiled grass adequate for at least 45 days. I am still clipping grazed areas to suppress weeds. I am planning for Fall overseeding and I am ordering supplies now. By the end of August I want to get a jump start on preparation for late Fall and Winter feeding. As stated previously I have learned that I can get some growth off the night dews provided I can get the seed germinated. Hopefully we will get some rain off a hurricane, within a few weeks, that comes up the east coast in a typical year.

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

I find your system agman very hard to find a way to be more profitable I think you are doing a super job at manageing a system to be profitable to the fullest extent . I think that to many start projects in the spring and thing get ahead of them and lose interest. Now is a good time to start putting in fencing and being ready in the spring .

In no way being argumentative I have to ask you to describe what attitude it is that you think would have put you in a world of hurt? As I understand it Judy is always moving slowly through his rotation and always stockpiling. Why do you think that he would have no grass at this point?

We have only a small herd and a small 10 acre plot to test MiG ideas on but right now we've got about a 65 day rotation and we could graze very well for 35 days if we had no more growth. But, our grass is growing. We had a hot dry June but our July has been more cool and we've had some rains here and there. I think surely we must be getting growth off of the heavy dews also.

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Chaffee, Mo

Farm 35
Restating what I have said before, starting to do the rotational grazing effort in the Fall is IMO the best time. The reasons are many. With the beginner it is known that they are not going to make it as far into the season as an experienced grazer. They should have their hay on hand so the pressure is not on them that is on a person that has nothing to fall back on. Drought and heat are not as big an obstacle, severe cold has not arrived. The work, such as planting and weed control, has slackened. The cattle are easier managed in that the food provided is probably better than what is growing outside the paddocks. Having some success will instill in the start up grazer the awareness that they can succeed. This less hectic time will give them the opportunity to think through their operation to overcome whatever issues surface. I never recommend putting the water system in first as the likelyhood is that once the system is tested it will be decided to do some modifications to the layout and the water source may not be ideally located. I am the type that is convinced "any thing can be made to work if you work on it long enough"

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

wstevenl
My background is significantly different than Greg Judy's. His is as a lab technician and mine is in agriculture. Experience has taught me that in nature to deal with those things that I can influence and to prepare for the worst and to hope for the best. I cannot afford to waste forage! My forage production does not adhere to methods Judy promotes, Before trampling (wasting forage) and anticipating heavy uniform regrowth a person needs to do some research. I do not think it will work for others over a period of five years. In a typical 5 year period a farmer will IMO experience 1 extremely good season, 1 extremely bad season and 3 average. During a wet ideal growing season what Judy promotes may be observed. That occurrence will be the exception, not the norm. He just does not have the experience and exposure to know that yet. Had I been doing so for the last 45 days I would not have feed for the next 45. I have no assurance of rain and without rain I have no forage. I also have no hay and I cannot return the cattle to the owners since I do not contract graze. Recall that I am running a cow plus calf for the full year on an allocation of 1.6 acres or less.

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

Agman, is the paddock that you are grazing tomorrow regrowth or will the herd be grazing what they left behind and 45 days ago?

I noticed that you are still clipping pastures when do you get to stop?

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Chaffee, Mo

The cattle will be grazing Spring growth that I have clipped the tops in order to keep the forage from going to seed. The grass, while still green, is approaching dormancy due to the dry weather. By the second to third week of August the Red River crabgrass should have mature seeds and I will shift the herd in that direction. I am still mowing but I am now mowing behind the cattle to prevent the weeds that they did not eat from making seeds and to stress the weed plants themselves. By the end of August I want to be ready to start the stockpiling process. This will reduce the available acreage for grazing. Regrowth may not kick in until September depending on rain and heat. As the end of November approaches I need to have most of the forage growth needed for Winter standing in the paddocks. Additionally, the early grazed paddocks in September and October need to be isolated so that the paddocks can get some regrowth and allowed to continue to grow on the warm days in November and December as insurance against Winter lingering in March and the stockpiled paddocks being exhausted resulting in shortage of feed.

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!