any ideas for converting to rotational grazing?

I'll be home in about three weeks, so I'll work on liming ASAP, while I have leave after this deployment. I intend to get soil samples run through the extension office as soon as I get home.
I do have a sacrificial area planned, with luck it will be graveled. I have seen the damage horses can do first hand, mine spent last winter literally in my backyard. According to my wife, it is still pure chopped-up clay, no sign of grass at all. Standing around in the wet soil didn't do the animals hooves any good, either.

I work surrounded by those beautiful, multi-million dollar pastures. Unfortunatly, race and show horse owners mostly see pasture as a baby-sitter, to keep the animals busy. They feed in the barn, to control diet.

Been wasting time mowing hay this week, I hate mowing hay. Had some time to think about rotational grazing. Probably 5 acres of what is my current 20 acres of pasture gets under water whenever we get a good rain. How do you manage something like this with rotational grazing? I can see situations where lots if fencing is washed away or where cows could be grazing a paddock that gets flooded.

SR, I would clip it high, not low. By high, I mean 8"-12". Also, I wouldn't apply any nitrogen. You're understocked and not really in need of the growth. Also, nitrogen kills off a lot of the valuable soil critters. It's not really N, it simply makes the existing N that's tied up in carbon available, which means you're burning out future fertility.

David, can you leave a permanent lane out to some high ground? That would keep the cows safe. Also, I'd manage for a much higher residual in that area. Lots of trampling, but leave it long and let that growth hold the soil down for you.

__________________
My farm blog
www.newedenfarm.net
My tactical/prep' blog
www.knowledgeskillgear.com

I have a 26 acre bottom land area that does flood from time to time. It has standing water now from recent rain. Since I use the polywire for cross fencing only when the cattle are grazed there to form paddocks none of the area has partition fencing subject to being washed away. The main permanent grass planted to this area is fescue. The fescue will tolerate being flooded for some time. I have done the rotational grazing long enough to understand what and how to handle such situations. In the coldest periods of Winter I try to graze the hills with a south eastern exposure. It the wettest periods I again try to use the dryer hillsides. In high heat I give the animals access to the lower areas (damp and cooler) with the best shade. There are times when I cannot make certain things happen and I just go in afterward with seed and equipment and make repairs. With a minimal effort, mucked areas can be easily recovered with nothing more than throwing out some seed and pulling a drag harrow. At times I just let the herd "walk in" seed as they graze. Other times I include clover seed in with the minerals and the animals then distribute the seed. The approach is like many others recommendations I promote, learn what works for you and apply accordingly.

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

There is a decent stand if fescue there now, alittle thin so it has a few weeds but not bad. So you'd just manage it so that is what is grazed in July, aug when we don't get much rain? From what I've read in this thread so far I see alot of similarities in our climates.

FarmerDavid

By the end of June fescue will have gone dormant here, particularly if it has not been clipped down to around 8 inches high. I have Red River crabgrass interseeded in the low wetter land and I should have the RRCG ready to graze by the 15th of July when things start to turn dry here. I will be back on fescue in September provided we get some rain in August. In late September I hope to start hoarding fescue by stockpiling. This is possibly something you should consider. September, October and November months are critical to me regarding getting through the Winter without hay.

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

My horses will be spending a good bit of time in the barn and sacrificial paddock. I'm wondering if the manure dropped there would be best used spread as-is, or if I should compost it first. My concern is that a spreader might get it thick enough to retard growth of my forage, which would be counterproductive. Any thoughts? I still plan to drag the grazing paddocks to break up manure, especially since horses drop a much more solid pile than cattle.

SoldiersRest

All farms that I am familiar with have areas that are lacking in nutrients or have some areas with issues such as erosion or traffic patterns from the past. If I was going to rotational graze I would use these problem areas as sacrificial paddocks and rebuild the soil via the manure. My land and that around me is the common red clay that one often sees in detergent commercials. One of the largest manufacturers of brick making machinery is only 10 miles or so from my farm and there are many brick manufacturers within a 30 mile radius. This type soil is subject to compaction and frustrating to farm. However, since converting to rotational grazing and utilizing the manure and other organic matter my paddocks have now taken on a medium brown color and the soil is no longer rock hard.

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

The area I plan to use as sacrificial paddock is definitely my worst soil. I'm in an area that is all brown/yellow clay, with large flat limestones "floating" in the clay. The floaters are the origin of the many miles of stone walls on older farms. My whole farm is this type of soil, but the planned loafing paddock, despite being the flattest land I have, has too many of the floaters right on the surface to even consider a plow or tiller. Hopefully, a few years of animals on it will help! Plus, not needing to buy and run a manure spreader is a plus.

A observation of mine about dung beetles & flies, my neighbor uses the mineral blocks with fly control in them and has no dung beetle population. Where I use regular mineral and have a slew of dung beetles.
But his fly control is much better as I see fewer flies bothering his cows even though we both use fly tags. I spray once a week to help my cows with their fly problem. He just has a sock hanging in his pasture with diesel fuel & sevin.
I tend to think I'm better off as at least I'm building my pasture, but he disagrees. What do you think ?

Are you sure that your neighbor is using mineral blocks with fly control in them, or are they the mineral blocks with wormer in them? I can see where the wormer block might impact the dung beetles, but I don't think that a fly control block would.

I use a loose mineral that has an IGR (insect growth regulator), along with cattle rubs that are treated with pyrethoid (Permethin). Just using those two methods will almost control the flies, but last summer I also started treating them with a generic Ivomectin pour-on wormer.

I don't know if the pour-on is the best type of wormer or if it even worms them at all, but adding it to the mix really helped control the flies, ticks, and lice last year. And, I still have the same amount of dung beetles that I had before.

It might be that the pour-on wormers aren't really doing as good of a job of worming the cattle and therefore doesn't ever get to the dung beetles to impact them, but it really helps with the flies and ticks.

I would think that you could both control the flies and build up your pasture at the same time.

Ironbutt

From what I have read I fully agree with you. I might add that I have read a lot on the subject. Even Cydectin, from what I have read states that Cydectin does not impact adult dung beetles but the article does not mention what impact there is with immature dung beetles. I am spraying my cattle occasionally with the natural version of the permethrin with an epsom salt and water carrier. My herd is not fly free however the few flies that they have seem to be tolerated.

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

How many flies do you consider to be too many? I don't use any kind of fly control. Does this steer have too many flies?

200 is the number that is quoted to be the point to start treatment. A $10 pump garden sprayer and most home concoctions should bring down that fly load to acceptable.
























































4

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

200 is about the same number I have heard. I don't think mine have 200 flies on them or 100 per side. Some of the cows only have about a dozen. The milk cows (Jersey breed) have the fewest flies. That steer in the picture has the most. I don't think he has 200. His dam and grand dam carry some flies, but not near enough that I would consider spraying for them (maybe 50 or 100 at peak fly season). They are both very slick. The steer in the picture still has a hairy coat, I think because he is young (13 months old)

On the topic of flies, I find it interesting that the flies seem to be attracted to some cows more than others. I read some things by Kit Pharo about flies, saying you can breed cows for "fly resistance".
http://www.pharocattle.com/extrastuf...Resistance.pdf

I spayed for flies one year - then I sold all the cows that had the most flies on them and haven't had as many problems since.

edited to add: in the picture, the steer's dam is right behind him facing the opposite way. The steer's grand dam is the next behind him, facing the same way he is. You can see the grand dam doesn't have many flies. The dam has a few more. The steer has more. It seems I am not using the right bull to keep my fly resistance. One of the Jersey cows is behind them, but you can't see much of her - but she doesn't have more than a dozen flies on her - ever. The red steer to the right and farthest back is her's and he doesn't have any flies either.

Yes I have noticed on my Red Angus cows that they have very few flies. Mostly a few horn flies and the occassional horse fly. Wonder if the red color makes a difference in fly resistance?

But my black angus cows have around a hundred that are concentrated across the back like in your picture. They act like they are miserable sometimes from all the flies. I spray with agman's concoction once a week, but with our every night thunderstorms I don't think it will help until the weather settles.

bigbluegrass
I would not have a lot of concern if my cattle had no more flies than what your cattle have in the pic. I would watch for pinkeye however.

I attended a meeting this year where Jim Gerrish was the speaker and he said not to address the fly issue and not to worm. I am minimally addressing the flies and I have only wormed a few animals over the last few years. Those animals that were wormed needed some attention as most of them were heifers and went through a hard Winter on poor feed while nursing so I was attempting to give them a little assist. I recently did some research on the cattle in India as I know first hand that these cattle are not impacted by flies. I finally found some information that stated that the makeup of the India cattle had a different hair coat than the European cattle. This unique difference is that the India cattle secrete a product (sebum) via their hair that is a repellant to flies.

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

I have been watching for pink eye. I haven't had a case of it in about 5 years. I do have a lot of seed heads and mature dead grass on top right now. I have had an excess of forage since the spring green up - around the end of April. Most of the orchard grass and fescue has gone to seed and is now turning brown. The timothy still looks good. The clovers are still going strong. The warm season grasses are really taking off. It doesn't look pretty, but there is still plenty of green. The next rotation I will put a little more pressure on it and trample some of that dead grass into the ground.

Agmantoo, a few questions for you.

1. I'm assuming you having been getting about as much rain as we have this year. Are you noticing that you have a lot more clover than normal? We have loads of it this year and I'm trying to see if it is due to the excess rainfall.
2. I'm familiar with the layout of your farm and can see it on google earth. I was thinking you may have mentioned something in the past about having a dedicated or permanent lane to shade (or maybe you just suggested that to someone else) if so give me an idea from your barn where that lane to shade is.
3. What would you say has made the biggest impact to get your pastures looking as well as all the pictures show for example did you use herbicides, chicken litter, stocking density or something else.
4. I'm at a cross roads now between trying to decide on spring calving or year round calving. I have some emails out to Jim Gerrish and others using methods similar to yours that only do fall calving on fescue but you seem to be pretty successful with year round. What are your suggestions for me on that considering we having similar conditions.

Thanks

Hi

I spent time intending to give you a detailed reply and it went into oblivion when I hit the reply. Here is the condensed version!

Both my computer and my left arm are having issues. I injured my shoulder/arm while helping my neighbor and my computer is on the blink. This reply is on a borrowed machine.

My clover has remained lush and the growing period has been extended with frequent rains.

There is a satellite view of my paddocks somewhere on this site. The main north south lane is marked and you will see some additional lanes leading off to shade.

Chicken litter gets credit for the major change. Minimizing soil compaction and herbicide/insecticide impact on microbes also contribute. I prefer to mechanically deal with the weeds and the cattle manure. To me the fuel expense is not that great and I do not get the residual impact associated with chemicals. I have a pesticide license and I have tried both methods. Somewhere hard work enters into the improvement in my farm.

Jim Gerrish has moved into a colder climate. I would think the cold would impact his decisions.
I like having income throughout the year and I like going into 4 marketing dates instead of 1.
I also watch where the best selling weight range exists. I can market some animals anywhere from 350 lbs to 600+ if the market shifts. If you market in the Fall and the best prices are for the 350 to 400 lb range where would you get any calves?

__________________
Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!