If you raise calves that are born on your place you wouldn't have to tag em till they leave.
Even the pemisis ID does not ask how many of everything you have. All it asks is do you have these kinds of animals around.

I sold grass fed beef for $6 recently. The lady could have gone to the store and gotten it alot cheaper of course, yet she didn't... and she's a repeat customer. If her family gets sick there will be little time wasted in finding the source either, she knows exactly where I live.

It's the big guys who depend on "consumer confidence" among the general public. Little guys like me depend on personal relationships and consistent quality to ensure consumer confidence. I don't want the government's "help".

First I'm told there's alot of meat coming in and we need to know where it came from. Now you say we won't be able to send meat out? Here's an idea that the market would rapidly latch on to - keep the meat we have. Supply and demand has this marvelous way of fixing things.

Social Security began as a voluntary program. Now it's mandatory. It's also a ponzi scheme that's failing. How long 'til it's broke? I don't know exactly but I do know the government has proven themselves inefficient, incompetent and untrustworthy. Sorry, nothing said here has proven to me that the government is concerned about my welfare. History has shown time and time again that they're most interested in accruing power unto themselves.

I'm glad you brought up this subject. I've often wondered about the import/export of meat.

Why do we send beef to foreign countries, then turn around and import beef? Why not just process home grown beef right here on our own soil instead of sending it overseas for processing, then bringing it back home with "who knows what happened to it" between? What kind of meat do we import that we can't grow right here at home?

One thing that upset me recently was when I checked the local grocery for some frozen crawdads. There was a big package that said "Louisiana crayfish" in BIG red letters on the front, but when I checked the small print on the back of the package it said, "a product of China". I've have heard how polluted and dangerous the water is over there. Why the heck are we importing anything that might have grown in that polluted water??? AND why was it stressing the point of it being "Louisiana crayfish" if they were really from China? Is there a Louisiana, China? Was it an attempt to trick buyers into thinking it was an American product?

I get so tired of the bait & switch crap. I wish we'd simply keep our home grown food home and stop importing the poisoned garbage from our enemies.

If you will look at the part of jeff's solution that I highlighted in bold, you can see the part, the fly in the ointment, the devil in the details.... or in short where jeff's plans falls apart....

What jeff's plan is counting on is a world where the sun always shines, and it rains lolly pops....we must first assume that the farmer is able to provide information that helps isolate any animals in contact, we are must rely on his memory or his records, and secondly we must trust the farmer's word.....

Jeff's plans relies and is 100% dependent on the honesty and integrity of the user.... where as NAIS assumes that liars will be liars, cheats will cheat, and cons will con.... I sorry to bring this up, the world is full of people who will take advantage of jeff's plan.

NAIS creates bottlenecks, yes just like annoying traffic jams..... at places where livestock comingle, the tag will be read and recorded,traceback and accountability....in short demanding responsiblity....

Is this plan going to be 100% effective????? Of course not, imperfect people, and yes jeff you must alo put yourself in this group will only manage imperfect solutions, testing on the farm is not a NAIS related topic, in and of itself, the onfarm testing would require traceback to be enforcable.

I would like the anti-NAIS group to tackle a new challenge, it you can get liars, cheats, and cons.....to follow and embrace the current livestock laws, to put forth a quality product....The NAIS proponents will be glad walk away....


Liars, cheats, and cons...

NAIS is the best plan to combat a million different animals changing hands with millions of potential endusers....a few bad apple are spoiling the whole batch,

If you test for the bad apples, how do find out where the bad apples that slipped through the cracks came from.....


testing and treacback are separate issues.

You will find liars, cheats and cons with NAIS as well. There will be plenty of people who wont tell the government where an animal has been moved to, and I've got news for you. They dont have enough man power to enforce NAIS.

So NAIS in and of itself has tons and tons of holes in it. But one thing that is for sure, is control. Why they want to know about every single animal on your farm, and somehow that ensures safety. Yet if they required only to tag when leaving the farm (or animal doesn't sell), that is FAR from invasive. In fact, they only know when you sell it. Vs knowing about every chicken, sheep, goat, cow, horse.. It seems the goal for NAIS and only goal is to trace the origins of a diseased animal. Problem is, it doesn't stop disease. So NAIS starts looking like it has other goals in mind.

Edit: There are plenty of ways people can shuffle animals to and from farms, without the government knowing. There are plenty who sell under the table. Heck, they cant even enforce drugs..

The laughable aspect to NAIS and disease. Here they are concerned over Madcow, yet prescription drugs kill over 108,000 people each year. If they were concerned about people dying, maybe they need to be outlawed or traced back..


Jeff

I found this searching the web:
http://www.real-food.com/Critique%20..._System_(NAIS)

This lady is right!!

Any program can have errors or ommissions.
Since most cows are marketed by livestock auction, scanning ear tags as they get their back tag glued on, covers most transactions. NAIS covers this huge segment quite seamlessly.
Currently there are regulations that if you sell a horse you must have a current Coggins Test fort EIA. It works well most of the time. Requiring the database to be updated when you sell a cow isn't a big deal. If I buy a cow, I want to be listed as the owner because I want to be notified if there is a disease outbreak involving animals my cow comingled with.

Spinner, if you'd like to start a diffeent thread, I'd be glad to spend some time explaining why we import some grades of beef while exporting our own. If you want we can talk about why we buy oil from Saudis while selling our Alaska oil to China. It is a very complex world out there and when you are ready to pull down the covers, I'll see if I can break it down to you.

My proposed idea would work quite well. Instead of testing, which people seem against, which in turn shows your not really for disease control. Having it setup where you dont have to register your premsis. Instead, when you tag an animal when it goes for sale, it includes your name, address etc. This way, it could be traced back to YOUR farm. It is the same method as NAIS proposes, but it doesn't involve the following.

1: No reporting the numbers of animals you have. You should not have to report whether you have 50 or 100 or 10. That is for different reasons.

2: You tag the animal as it leaves..

3: Offer incentives to do herd tests, so if you do come back clean. You get perhaps $ for being as such.


What it seems like, is big brother wants to know your business. Disease is not their concern, since 80 million are sickened from food borne illnesses each year, 5500 die. There are 108,000 who die from prescription drugs each year, 300 per day. But these are allowed.. Why? Oh because the government does make money in some way. I think the figure was in the billions what the government gets back from prescription drugs in revenue.


Jeff

That in a nutshell is NAIS

No it isn't. Because you have to register your premesis, you have to report the number of animals, and you have to tag them even if they dont sell.


That in a nutshell is not NAIS. Eliminate the premesis reg. Eliminate number reporting, and only tag before it leaves with an RFID tag. This actually eliminates the governments knowing of how many you have, etc etc..


Jeff

Because you have to register your premesis, you have to report the number of animals, and you have to tag them even if they dont sell.
No you don't. Here is the form a person fills out no where does it ask the number.
E. Types of livestock or livestock carcasses on premises and any secondary locations* Check ALL that apply.
Bovine – please specify:
Fish (includes all fish kept at a fish farm that requires
registration under s. ATCP 10.61)
Beef Cattle Goats
Dairy Cattle
Bison
Poultry (includes domesticated fowl like chickens, turkeys, geese, ducks,
guinea fowl, squab, ratites like rheas, ostriches, emus, cassowaries, kiwi, and
captive game birds like pheasants, quail, wild turkeys, migratory wildfowl,
pigeons, and exotic birds raised for hunting, which are raised in captivity)
Camelids (includes llamas and alpacas) Sheep
Captive cervids (includes deer, elk, moose, caribou, reindeer, and
the subfamily musk deer)
Swine
Equine (includes horses, mules and donkeys)
http://datcp.state.wi.us/premises/pd...cationForm.pdf

"What it seems like, is big brother wants to know your business. Disease is not their concern, since 80 million are sickened from food borne illnesses each year, 5500 die. There are 108,000 who die from prescription drugs each year, 300 per day. But these are allowed.. Why? Oh because the government does make money in some way. I think the figure was in the billions what the government gets back from prescription drugs in revenue."

I see that some folks get so caught up in class warfair, everything someone else does is against them.
You want the government out of the animal diease control business, then in the same breath you blame the government for 80,000,000 food related illnesses. Do you want a government that is in control of every egg salad sandwich that sits out on the counter too long or orange juice that has set in your 'fridge way past its fresh date? That's an interesting figure you throw around, but it doesn't relate to the USDA's job of keeping food safe unless you can tie it to contaminated food at the retail level, which you can't.

You figure the government is profitting from prescription drugs. I think medacaid and medacare costs the government a lot of money, not the other way around like you seem to believe.

You don't have to tell USDA how many animals you have and you don't have to tag them until they leave.

Several things that you seem to be misguided by.

1: Do some research, I did, and it showed how much the government makes off of prescription drugs. As I said, its in the billions.

2: You do have to report the number of animals. I double checked the form, and there is a section below the name, address, etc part of it. It asks how many sheep, goats, dairy, beef, horse, etc etc. The numbers are as follows, depending on the breed 1-5 or 1-10, 11-20, etc etc. That is reporting numbers. Also included with the form there is some literature, they mention the tags. It says nothing in that that you only have to tag before leaving the farm. They imply that you buy the tags, and thats what you use on the herd. If it really was as easy as you imply, and you didn't have to register your premesis, there wouldn't be as many people up in arms over it.

Jeff

Well IF you can Find on that form I posted, and that IS the form a person fills out and sends into the State. That is the Printable online version.
ALL it says is this:
Types NOT how many of each type.
IF you find where it says diifferent. Copy it and POST IT.

Stop nitpicking. Obviously by now we know who is for and against this issue.

Who's deleting Posts?????

I think (atleast I hope), its a BBS glitch. There was a few other topics in the General forum, that had posts missing. One was up to 92 or so, and was 85 this morning.


AK. Here you go, it says nothing about simply species. They are asking for how many. This IMO is none of their business, and why they need to know numbers seems a bit fishy to me. I can understand species ONLY, but numbers? I thought it was a trace back system, not "numbers" system.

http://www.beechhillfarms.us/temp/nais.jpg


Jeff

OK so that is what The State of NY does. That is your problem take it up with The State of New York then. This is the law in NY and is not a Federal one.
This does not reflect what is happening throughout the rest the States, in regards to the Premises ID Program. I just checked out the Form for NY well like I say take it up with the State of NY as that is not the norm what is going on with the rest of the States. WI. does not require the numbers, and Wisconsin is after all the "Model State". Which others copy, but can add their own requirements, and it looks like NY did just that.

Redhogs & AK,

Even you have to admit that it's a bit odd that NAIS wants to count every animal on our farms for the "safety" of the American public, but they don't bother to stop China from sending poisons into the country daily.

That shows where they stand on the safety issue doesn't it??? Since we know that safety isn't a high priority of theirs, WHY are they pushing NAIS so hard? There must be some other reason why they want to know where every animal is located and who owns them.

I think I've posted before about a local attorney that read the original draft of the NAIS registration and recommended that nobody use it for the simple reason that the legal terms used specified that the land owner was a "tenant" (on gov owned land?) not a land owner. It might be just fine for a renter to sign the form since the renter is actually a "tenant" instead of a land owner, but how many owners want to sign a legal document claiming to be a renter instead of a owner? I haven't kept up with the changes they made so I don't know if the registration form still specifies the signer is a renter or if they changed that part.

The US buys a tremendous amount of products from many different countries, mostly China. This is what is known as "Free Trade" There are things about Free Trade that I don't like. But we aren't going to close the door to the rest of the world in our lifetime. Few people can grasp the volume that hits our shores each day. The American consumer doesn't want the price of dog food, shrimp, honey and apple juice (to name a few products we get from China) to go up. If the USDA were to increase inspections on the imported products it would drive up the price of everything.

Just maybe, before we start cracking down on imported products, we could get a program, here at home, working?

Tainted imported products is very rare, but it grabs people's attention and we hear about it for a good long while. While there have been more recalls on China manufactured products than I like, we step away from reality with statements like, " but they don't bother to stop China from sending poisons into the country daily".

I wish the US would have closed the border at the close of WWII, to heck with the rest of the world. We didn't and it is 60 years too late to turn back. Besides, China's apple juice in our country's baby food is a long way from NAIS. Sort of a topic swing, don't you think?

I think you are recalling the early discussion on the word, "Stakeholder". The USDA used that word as a general term for people involved in the occupation of raising animals, farmer, rancher, tenant, etc. There was a lawyer that found a dictionary that listed stakeholder as a person that held the money belonging to two people that had wagers. Sort of like a guy that holds the kitty in a card game.

I'm starting to wonder about Wisconsin being USDA's "model state". I just read where there are exactly 443,556 cows listed by NAIS in Wisconsin. There it is, right under our eyes. Don't you see it? Don't you realize that the square root of 443,556 is 666? Another Biblical prophecy warning us that the end times are near. Jeez.

No NAIS
 

You're right. To quote Nancy Regean, "just say no". We need to refuse to coopertate in the least with these tyrants. We don't need to negotiate down to a lesser system with governmentophiles that put this together. They need to forget it.

Shipping
 

No, we won't need to stop what is being shipped in. It is being done for us. The Baltic Dry Index is down 93%. I guess even in depression, there is a silver lining.

The argument used for homosexual marriage is that "other states are doing it, we must comply". Why do you think it'll be different on NAIS? Earlier an NAIS proponent argued that "other nations are doing it, we must comply".

Because this is a global market place on like what was happening 100 years ago. You can't go back in time as this is now the 21st century, and the world wide market place, that is demanding a uniformed trace back system, in sure the product has come from disease free animals, and that there is a competent and fast program in place in case of a disease outbreak.

just last week, i attended a trade seminar, which I admit, was 99% pro-ag men, these men where independent... not corporate farmers, and not rich....

This group was near 100% pro-NAIS.....

I get amused when the some say this is a big ag proposal.....

What is Big-Ag???? for the terms of this discussion, I believe it is the people with newer trucks, nicer farms, or anyone farming full time.

The room quickly was in up-roar when I mentioned the problems with COOL and NAIS, and Bio-Procedures compliance with Amish or small religous groups....

The room that was 100% for NAIS, was also 100% in agreement that somebody in the USDA should be shot and a PR firm should be hired....No body was in favor of forcing the amish or dissenters to be involved directly....

An older gentleman who had remained silent, spoke and answered.... "you got to have an uproar to have a compromise", this gentleman is involved at the state level in DOA and one of the most successful farmers in the state.

he explained that a solution for the amish and any dissenters had been availalbe for quite sometime.... He said a series of local tag farms will solve the problem and fully implement the bio-security needs with NAIS....

He explained a plan where, an amish farmer, would drop off his stock at a local "tag farm" the day before the local sale or buyers arrive... when unloaded the animal will be immediately tagged and the farmer will provide a payment stub that corresponds with the eid number.... The cows will be sold and the farmer will receive prompt payment in the form of a check.

traceback will not begin at the tag farm, the cow can be traced all the way back to the original farm, any fraud will enforcable by local authorities, not the usda, for check fraud.... the amish areas will of course receive grants, so the usda looks good in the press for helping them, any dissenters can pay a small fee and enter thier stock into commercial food chain. this plan will give the USDA cover as it allows for a smooth transition into a fully tagged chain of movement, the public will have little sympathy for a farmer who will not shell out 15 bucks to another farmer to tag his cow, he gets another man's equipment and and sorting experience for $15.... that's a bargin, if he thinks iits too much, then buy a headstall and do it yourself.

Nobody is going to buy a constituional crisis if the usda requires the farmer's provide accurate payment information, the public which quickly see that it's just go old fashion tax evasion....

Mandatory payment of all animal services and tracnsactions in check or verified payment info is roughly NAIS compliance.....

sure, some dissenters will go entirely underground.... if they avoid the sale barns, vets, and slaughter houses.... they have become an insgnificant threat to national herd health.... they are happy living in a cave, and herd health has taken a huge leap forward.... pouting and taking you toys home is a nais sucess, tagging is a success... the program will work either way.... no one really cares if you cooperate, nobody gives a flip.... national herd health is the concern.

Large feed lots, farms etc. Will not have to report each animal, it will be done in groups. That is catering to BIG ag..


Funny thing, we dont even have NAIS, and we ship 747 million lbs of beef to Mexico.. Again, why the concern for disease? The government is obviously not concerned over people becoming ill, afterall 106,000 die per year from drugs they approve, and less than 1% of product that comes into this country is inspected.


Jeff

Apples and Oranges, are different, and trying to link drugs in with the health of our food system is different also..
A few people dying from a unexpected Drug reaction is WAY different then protecting our national herds health, which is the concern.
Side Note: I had a severe reaction from a drug approved by the USDA, and nearly died~! But do I blame the USDA Of Course Not, and neither should you. Everybody's Body is different, and drugs do not act the same way on every individual.
But trying to say the USDA does not care is Way Out There in Left Field for sure. Approved Drugs and the Health of the Nations Food system, and trying to link the 2 together is not the thing to do either. Apples and Oranges

jeff,

you seem to find some comfort in screaming about the haves and have nots, each big ag farmer has earned and fought for what they have.... as for prescription drugs, you are using a political campaign trick of emotional association, by ranting about something that is a common greivance, you hope to associate that anger with NAIS, when is the last time you saw that work.... it is obvious and paints your valid arguements with mistrust.

I think your greatest fear is that you will not be forced to do anything, you will just be ingored, people will not try to put you out of business, they will not even know you are in business, your enemies just don't care!!!!

NAIS is a reality, but it want affect your farm, if you don't want to be part of the world outside your farm boundaries, fine - just kill it and eat it yourself....

but if you want to take part of the world's most successful and organized Ag industry... yes it's an idustry, you will have to play by the rules....

The rules will require you to do XYZ, if you choose not to on your own farm then do so..... Once you leave your farm you are a citizen, not the king of your own castle.....you have the right to go to your farm and scream nasty things about the usda.... just don't move any untagged animals....

your farm = your rules, once you leave the farm the usda's has rules.....It's simple

The rules, like traffic laws are a necessary pain.

See this is where ignorance is bliss. The market I am in, aka the registered holstein industry. Is not going to benefit off of NAIS, as those animals I buy and sell are tested PRIOR to the sale. So you saying "if you want to be part of the most successfull industry" is BS. Heres the deal, its not mandatory yet. When it does, I will sign up for it.. Untill then I will object to it..

Funny, how people are for a program that wont stop disease, and like I said. The issue is "disease", yet they dont care about products sold inside the country from other countries. Look at China, they allowed products to be sold in this country, and only pulled it when there was objection. They should have been tested, etc etc.


So NAIS is more of a control program, than safety..


Jeff

Somebody tell me what diseases NAIS will save us from and what markets it will open?

"Large feed lots, farms etc. Will not have to report each animal, it will be done in groups. That is catering to BIG ag.."

No, no, a thousand times no. What you equate as a loophole for the Big Ag, is available to the small farms, too. In reality, very few farms, large or small, keep their livestock in a single group from birth to slaughter. It just isn't practical in most farming operations. Besides, what is the sense in entering into a trace back program for animals that never leave the farm until slaughter?

"I buy and sell are tested PRIOR to the sale."

Well, good for you Jeff. Mind if I ask exactly what they are tested for? Brucellosis and TB are common tests. Are you testing for those? How about Hoof and Mouth? How are you sure that you purchases are free of Mad Cow? Testing every purchase and sale for that? Are you getting stool samples for parasites? Rinderpest is a serious disease that would require rapid quarantining and trace back. Are you testing for that, too?

Check out this list of reportable diseases and let us know that your testing program covers them.
http://www.padls.org/ug/repdis.html
Just because they aren't common, is no excuse not to test. England wasn't testing for Mad Cow, but look what happened.

To brag that you don't need a trace back program because you test is, as you said "ignorance is bliss". We weren't testing for TB in Michigan, because that disease didn't exist here. But we got it and depend on trace back/ trace forward to stem its spread.

NAIS is a livestock program. It is not a imported fruit program. It is not a pet food program. It is not a prescription drug program.

"Look at China, they allowed products to be sold in this country, and only pulled it when there was objection. They should have been tested, etc etc."

The topic here is how local fairs require premise ID. Seems we are way off track talking just about NAIS. To jump over to the inspection of of China's products is a bit of a stretch. To state that USDA allows all products into this country untested, until there is a complaint is a lie.

I hate that we trade with China, but that isn't the topic at hand.

Allen asked, "Somebody tell me what diseases NAIS will save us from and what markets it will open?"

Michigan lost it's TB free status and we lost our out of state market. That hurt dairy and cattle farmers, big and small. As part of a scientific program to eliminate TB from Michigan's cows ( I'm referring to the cows owned by farmers that live in this state, not inferring that these cows are the property of the state). Testing for TB is ongoing in the counties where TB positive cows and deer were found. Cows from these counties must have a recent TB test to be marketed out of these counties. The electronic ear tag is the market's assurance that each cow matches that TB test. The electronic ear tag applied in the ear of cows from areas where no TB has been found is important to assure the market that the cow was raised in an area known to be TB free (the whole state, every cow was tested a few years ago and most of the state was found to be TB-free).
Should TB show up at a slaughterhouse or thru random testing, it is important to the market to know what farms might have TB infected cows. They would be quarantined and tested right away. This allows the farmer to continue marketing his TB free cows without needless extended quarantines. At the same time, the trace back system can be used for trace forward. The farms with cows that crossed paths with an infected cow can also be quarantined and tested. This provides market assurances and reduces the time in quarantine to just a few days.

Some of the larger beef buyers and packing plants are requiring place of origin documentation. Electronic ear tags permit this to be accomplished quickly and with very little error.

Japan and Korea buy many tons of US beef. They can pick anywhere in the world to buy. The loss of these and other export markets produces extra beef in this country, driving down the value of cows. The value of cattle goes down without regard to how big or small your herd.

The RFID was recently used to trace back a Chronic Wasting Disease in a deer in Michigan. The 200 plus captive deer farms were placed on quarantine, the deer at the farm where the CWD positive deer was housed were tested. The farms where this deer originated were tested. This was done in just a few days. It kept the Hunt Clubs operating and no farmers were put out of business.

When the public saw a TV article about dangerous chemicals on apples, the market slumped and the price dropped. It doesn't take much surplus in the market to create a deep dive in prices. Alar was banned even though there wasn't scientific evidence of any danger and the apples did not contain any chemical residue.

It is critical that the US look for places to export our products, diminishing our off kilter balance of trade. It is also critical to insure public confidence thru rapid action in the event of a disease out break, keeping a demand for all agriculture products growing.

If NAIS can limit the spread of disease by quickly isolating farms that were the source of the disease and isolating and testing the animals that were exposed, it controls the spread of a disease. Therefor, controlling disease produces safety.

You guys just dont get it do you? Its not surprising but rather amazing how thick some of you are. NAIS is designed for disease, for consumer confidence.. Chinese products were allowed in this country, even after it was known othe products were dangerous. A kid DIED from the products, this is due to the lack of inspection.. This does not help consumer confidence.. The government wants to protect people, yet they allow products in (99%+) that are not inspected. How do you protect people when your not even inspecting the vast majority of products coming in? How do you protect people, when over 106,000 die per year from the very same drugs THE GOVERNMENT approves.. Thats my issue. NAIS is not designed to protect anyone, the government really does not care about your health. If they did, they would act like it. Food borne illnesses are a result of them being inept. They inspect, yet it seems people are still dying..

If your really cant GET IT, that the issue here is consumer confidence, yet haypoint himself has said "its consumer confidence". Yet somehow cant grasp "what does china have to do with it". WAKE UP! Because it is the ENTIRE picture. I will make it easier to understand.


The government allows products on the market that kill people, yet they are touting NAIS is to SAVE people. This is a MAJOR contradiction and is why I do think NAIS has another purprose CONTROL. If you cant sell your cattle because your not enrolled in NAIS, that is called CONTROL.. GET IT?


Jeff

Talk about not getting it. China, FDA drug Programs etc. etc. etc. Is not and should not be lumped into the NAIS program by the USDA. Nice side track though in not answering haypoint on the disease testing questions. Hmmmm.

AK, would you mind answering my point? Do we or do we not have to comply with other states and nations regulations because they do "xyz" or not?

That seems to say no. Let the other states do what they want and you won't be bound by it. Yet you go on to say -

So, which is it?

Redhogs--I used to work for a man just like you in your profession. I was a manager at a confinement for years. I know how a "switcheroo" can and would happen in the hog barns. If the pigs aren't individually tagged, when they get out and get all together how do you know who goes literally into which group?? Besides counting and saying: 32 in this pen, 30 in this one, etc, etc. Workers just make things look good on paper. I've seen it happen more than once to "save face".

I have often sat and thought HOW does one make all this happen--in the real world?? What a nightmare THAT can turn into! Gilts or sows that can't stay with their original group because they were later breeders. So those gilts or sows that didn't breed (or rebreed)--how can you ship them along with the finishers--that isn't "their number specific" group? I already see a solution--the dead pit. Oh yeah, I see that one coming, hard and fast.

Sows that are re-bred, how are you going to keep these in specific "groups" when they are in gestation crates with hundreds or thousands in one barn? (Versus keeping them "in line" per their due dates.) What about fostering? You have sows (hypothetical) from the same group--so I guess fostering piglets and swapping is OK.
What if you have sows from different "specific number groups" farrowing?? Are the piglets when weaned just their own new little group? How do I know what group(s) they originated from.....on paper it will say this, but how does one REALLY know??

I have seen workers do some pretty stupid/oddball things, just to keep paperwork straight and lookin' good for the office/owner(s). (What they don't know don't hurt them type of attitude.) Like babies (gasp!) born in breeding, to sow from "hypothetical group A" that the paperwork says she wasn't due until next week--and those babies get fostered onto other sows from "hypthetical group B" that have just farrowed, or are farrowing. Hmmmmmm.....yep, I know ALL about that kind of stuff. Glad I don't have to deal with it, either!!

Its the workers on the farms that will have to deal with the chaos. And the people in the office keeping paperwork "in order". I KNOW what goes on behind "closed doors". (Those "don't ask don't tell" kind of meetings--I've been to THOSE before, too!)
Things can look wonderful on paper, but in reality it can be nothing but trouble.

Yes, big Ag loves all this NAIS/premisis registration/Locate in 48 stuff. Us little guys who don't ask for gov't subsidies (money) in the first place don't want anything to do with how YOU guys do things. That is why we do what we do.
I've been on both sides of the "Ag fence" when it comes to raising livestock--Big Ag and Small Potatoes Folks. I'll stay on this side now. It's much quieter and less stressful. No "bottom $$ line" drives me anymore. I consume what I grow, or sell it privately.
I may not be rich, but I sure eat good!!

jay, first.... I think you have jumped on the wrong guy.... and I think you are digging a little too deep...

From your post , I think you have a problem with lot numbers...... first, lot number or penning is not at issue on farm.... Nais is an off farm tracking idea....

yes, regrouping happens as a matter of day to day business, and yes lot numbers will be used....

If you have the experience you speak of, you know the NAIS plan is using lot numbers to coincide with the current system of insterstate travel and health papers, the lot number is assigned and loaded into a hauler and the door should be zip tied with a special coded seal....

and yes this system has been tampered with, but by limiting it to terminal slaughter destinations, no feedlot - salebarn - or any mixed ownership stock animals would apply to this exemption....

keep in mind that lot numbers on day old chicks makes sense, lot numbers on 19 day old piglets makes sense, a farm may buy 10,000 that are all shiped at once.... reality is that the lot number arguement is people just being contrary...A semi going from a to b crossing a state line would have this number 09809809809....... A problem at the first farm would trigger testing at all farms receiving shipments.....chickens and pigs don't stay around long.... fastest to slowest grower is separated only by days.....you also know that with hogs, and chickens its not one sick, it's all sick.

Im not sidetracking anything. I already said, the cattle I buy and sell are tested when they go to those registered only markets. I feel FAR safer buying an animal from those sales, than I would with a RFID tagged animal. An RFID tag does not mean the animal is free from disease.


China, FDA, etc DOES have relevance to the bigger picture. NAIS is for disease control, consumer confidence. When you have the very same government allowing drugs that kill 106,000 a year and allowing products in (99%+) uninspected. How does that boost consumer confidence?

It is all BS, a big load of it.


Jeff

I haven't read these thread but here is some infomation that was emailed to me from a breeder.

Since most are thinking of cattle, I guess I wanted to point out/show how things are in the hog world. Cattle would be much easier to deal with since they don't have litters, and have a longer gestation peroid than sows.

As for the paperwork, ok, say something is tracedback to your place. I guess instead of figuring out what barns/pens/specific animals the problem came from, it's just easier (safer???) to just destroy everything like they did in Europe.

I have to giggle at all the bio-security we go through...just to have the milo we used infested by birds and we still got TGE one year--that was nasty. The milo sat in a big pile (from our farm, no less--common practise in these parts) and birds had a feast--just like they always do. The vets/authorities never did traceback all the way to where the birds got it from.

So....if you can keep the wild critters tracked, and vaccinated.....who is going to do that?? Look at all the disease/carrier problems created by deer, bison, birds, rats/mice even flies.....none of the premisis ID or critter IDs can help with that. People forget about what lives in the wild....

CWD traveled to the this state because of domestic deer, it is now in the wild deer population. WITHOUT NAIS they traced to where they bought the deer.

There is TB in a domestic deer herd a couple hours south of here, again, traveled unknown and now could pose a risk to the wild deer herd (if it already hasn't.


Jeff