So I guess those who are selling cattle, more so than buying are bilking the government out of tax dollars? I know my goal isn't that, along with many others I know. Yes, at one point investors would "hide" their money in cattle. Problem is, cattle do diminish in value. Just because someone buys a dairy heifer/cow for 50k, doesn't mean he will get that back. The heifer could be three quartered at calving, scor 75, and end up worth squat. So its more of a money making venture for some, and some do quite well at it.

Besides, whats wrong with bilking the government out of tax dollars? They get too much as it is, and mishandle it in every way possible.

Jeff

Funny, NAIS hasn't existed all the way up till now. It seems just about everyone has done quite well, without it. ALL of a sudden NAIS is going to make such a difference, that if you dont join it, you will fail. Sounds pretty threatening to me.

Consumers are sheep, they will do anything the government tells them. NAIS is a false sence of security, and is another wastefull government program. The prices for beef, dairy, etc are not going to be changed with NAIS, thats BS. If it does, I will be the first to admit it. Problem is, how a program such as NAIS will boost beef prices, is beyond me. It will not increase demand. With the economy going into the dumper, consumer confidence is going along with it. NAIS wont prop anyone up. For the most part, not many of the public actually know what it is. Its why the government sounds all great when they say "NAIS will protect you". When in fact, it does nothing to stop disease, only trace it back..

The dairy market is shrinking, and it doesn't matter how many people buy milk. They dont pay well enough, farms go out. The problem atm, and you seem to misunderstand it. The demand for milk is DOWN. Read it slowly D O W N. Prices are expected to tank in the spring, down to 15, if not lower. There is a 1.5% oversupply right now. People aren't buying as much, because they are pinched.. NAIS will not increase demand in a way to SOAR milk prices. As has always been the case. Price goes up, cows added on. Price drops, cows get sold eventually, then it resets. If only farmers would LEARN to control the market, then price would stay up. For you to say NAIS will boost milk prices, shows what you know of the market..

Again haypoint, do you work for the government? The last time someone defended the government such as yourself, did work for the government.


Jeff

I don't work for the government. I have transported a lot of cattle to and from local markets. I have friends that are in the Beef transporting business. I have friends that are Veterinarians. I was active in showing Draft Horses. I have ancestors that made their living with beef and dairy cows. I read, I see, I remember.

Perhaps because I'm in northern Michigan, in an area spared from the TB problem, yet close enough to see what happens to farms caught in a disease outbreak. I have a working knowledge of how F.A.I.R. maintains the data base. It's the same data base you use for all your registered Holsteins. I don't know how you can use that and still be afraid of it when used for trace back?
I have watched the cattle market in Michigan and kept up on changes in the market. I see what a tough job it is to stay in the cattle business and understand that a drop in demand puts a lot of little folks out of business. I want to do everything I can to help keep that market growing. I understand that NAIS isn't the cure-all for everyone any more than embryo transplanting is the get rich method for everyone.

Why do the milk producers run ads on TV promoting milk? It is critical to keep this market from failing. A loss in consumer demand nation-wide would hurt everyone that sells milk. Not just the giant factory farms.


We haven't had to deal with Mad Cow before. we haven't had the state to state movement of livestock we now have. We haven't had the technology to maintain a national data base that would allow trace back.

I don't know that there is anything wrong with it. But don't fool yourself that it's anything else except a tax dodge, is all. It's not dairying. It wouldn't exist if the government didn't have tax breaks FOR farmers utilized by people who aren't farmers at all.

Anyway, whatever.

If government didnt exist anywhere, in any country, Im sure we would all be better off, & learn how to live with our neighbors, be they next door,or in a foreign country.
Now it seems every one gets saddled with endless rules & regulations, & fines. Except china that put melamine in products, that other companies/countrys outsource to them

How dare anyone try small farming & god forbid sell to others.
Where is that irradiated food when you need it.

How dare any one decide what they want to by, & from whom.
In the land of the free, only congress/force of law, backed by lobbiest, who are backed by big companies ,will tell & regulate & sell to you what you can have,for your own good of course.

yummy,where is that gmo corn?

"NAIS helps maintain consumer confidence. Your livelihood depends on NAIS."

As has been demonstrated, the U.S. government is corrupt and only interested in furthering it's own power. This is often at the expense of its citizens. If our livelihood is dependent upon gov.thugs, we are in a world of HURT!

Haypoint, does your job have anything to do with NAIS?

How Serious is Mad Cow?
 

"We haven't had to deal with Mad Cow before. we haven't had the state to state movement of livestock we now have. We haven't had the technology to maintain a national data base that would allow trace back."

Haypoint, help me get a handle on how serious this problem is. How many American citizens have perished from Mad Cow in the last ten years? How many cases of Mad Cow have originated from this country in the last ten years?

The curious thing with NAIS as I keep saying, is why the sudden scare of disease? Seems odd that all of a sudden there is a problem.

But here is the deal. Foreign countries would not buy from us, without a program. Big Ag as I keep saying, sells to these countries, the local guy sells local. Big Ag is likely hurting due to their lack of international sales. So the government comes up with a program, that caters to foreign companies.. If it wasn't foreign marketing, I doubt we would see NAIS. NAIS came about shortly after the debacle in Washington (Madcow) occured. Remember though, the animal's origin was traced back without NAIS. Shortly after, the border closed. Then what happened afterwards was interesting. Beef prices went up, because the flood of animals from canada stopped..


Now the border is open, beef has dropped, and NAIS wont save the day..

Milk prices according to the market report from the coop that picks me up forecasts an average of 16.10 or so for next year. Thats BAD. In fact, that will send a lot of farms packing, oh and NAIS wont do a darn thing to prevent it... International demand is dropping, likely due to the economic issues.

I also hope everyone doesn't get into the embryo market, and deep pedigrees. It will flood that sector of the market.

But trinity hits the nail on the head. You cant sell a product to someone, like milk, without the government wanting to know. We dealt with it, and let me tell you, they really dont want you selling outside of their knowledge. Why? It all comes down to TAXES. The milk a farmer sells under the table goes unreported. The milk the co-op picks up, does not. They collect off that.

Thats why I wonder if NAIS is going to eventually be used as a way to assess the value of your animals, and add it to your land assessment..

Jeff

Big ag little ag...
You may know about embryos but you don't seem to have a clue about anything else.

If big ag can't sell overseas and the market drops out how much do you think the little guy selling locally is gona get?
If I can go to the local locker plant and get half a beef cut wrapped and frozen for 1.89 a pound I'll go there before I spend 5 bucks a pound on something from a guy who tells me it's worth more cuz he grass fed it.

And what about the guy with 5 cow calf pairs who wants that pocket money. He ain't looking to sell halves, he ships the fats to market. Even I ship to market if I don't find a place to sell all my animals and I may only do 2-3 a year. Little guys sell local, down at the sales barn but the price he gets is dependant on the national market.
But it can help by keeping markets open to the US keeping the prices from totally bottoming out.

Don't Sweat It
 

2% of US beef is sold overseas. Big deal

It's a bit more than 2%.
How would an extra 2 billion pounds of beef affect the markets?

You say I dont have a clue about anything else, but your last statement shows your nievetay. NAIS will not increase the value of your beef, thats complete butkis. What will increase the value of your beef, is less inflow of animals going for beef. The supply/demand equation. Its what effects milk prices, its what effects EVERYTHING..

But connecting NAIS to market value, and somehow it will increase it. Sorry, but it isn't going to work. As I said before, the price of beef wasn't all that great when we had a larger market, beef actually was HIGHER when the border closed, and we weren't selling internationally.

Will you admit it, when prices do not go up when an international market opens? Imposing a program that steals your right to move your cattle at your choosing, without reporting, simply move them. All because we want an international market? Heck, at the moment, milk demand internationally is dropping, thanks to the economy..

Jeff

LOL, the Everlasting Topic
 

It is nice to know that one can be gone for months and come home to find the same people discussing the same topic and just about as paranoid as ever.

Folks, the goobermint does not give a rat's behind about you, your wife, your hidden cash or your children. No one is planning to put a chip in your ear, rear or automobile.

Premise ID is all about tracking livestock when and if a horrendous and costly disease breaks out in the US. It identifies a tract of land and ties it to a particular operator just as does an address. It also will tie an animal to that tract of land and that operator. If an animal already at a packing house is found to be diseased, that animal can be almost immediately tracked back to its first owner. That is the purpose of NAIS.

If you raise superior animals that give a packer an economic advantage it will be in your best interest that the packer KNOWS your NAIS ID. If you raise trash you would hope to remain anonymous. I suspect that many farmers know this and think that their cattle will be docked at sale because they cannot meet the packers' desired quality.

Right now the promise is to keep the NAIS ID numbers out of the public record, but nothing prevents the individual from giving his number to any buyer. If my cattle can command a ten cent premium I will certainly give my ID to the packers. Time to get your herds in order folks.
Ox

Very good post OX

All this illustrates is two things.


1: Disease does not have a marker, where you can simply run a tag, and go "oh gee, it came from this one source". What if the disease was contracted through a sale barn? If its individual to packer ONLY. Then yes, thing is, in most cases it wont be that easy. Again disease should be combated BEFORE it leaves the farm, not after.

2: So if your animal isn't chipped, that somehow makes that animal less valuable, even though a chipped animal is no different, as neither is tested prior to leaving the farm. If I was buying, id ask for the farmer to test their animal for the most common disease. If he said "I've got an NAIS herd". Id say to him "so?, a tagged animal doesn't mean its clean, and it doesn't matter if it can be traced back to you, I lose money if I have to destroy it". So that again, would be a false sence of security.


Ya know, you pro NAIS folks make it sound SOOO easy, dealing with disease. Wait until an outbreak does occur, NAIS will be helpless.


Jeff

Another 2 Billion Pounds
 

I value my liberty more than I do the market. I don't think an addition 6.7 pounds of beef per person will break the kitty.

More demand will increase prices as well just as the worldwide demand last year drove milk to over 20/cwt.
But less demand will cause the price to drop. If a country decides that it wants traceable beef and it is not available from the US then demand for our beef will drop as will prices.
You can twist the supply/demand tail from both ends.

Nais
 

Comments below:

"Tracking systems for disease already exist."
I've heard this a dozen times, but I haven't gotten an answer to my question, what system do you speak of?
It is commonly known that in a disease outbreak, USDA can sit down with each producer and go over the notes in his shoebox and try to figure if he sold Bossie or Flossie to Carter Barry or was it Kyle Carter or Lyle Harter? Did he run his calves thru the March feeder calf sale or was that the time it was snowing and he took them in April?
Is the farm at Box 3116, RR#3 close to the farm at Box 3000, RR#3 or is that on the other side of the lake?

NAIS doesn't just trace back to the calf's birthplace. It contains data of each sale/purchase and the location of the sale.

You are correct, when the US opened up to Canada's beef, prices for our beef fell. It's that supply and demand thing I've been harping on. If you can understand how an increase in supply decreases the price, why can't you see that an export market decreases our supply and helps prices to rise?
"Market Control to Agribusiness", what are you talking about and how does it relate to NAIS. Admit it, it doesn't.

"Ya know, you pro NAIS folks make it sound SOOO easy, dealing with disease. Wait until an outbreak does occur, NAIS will be helpless."
Get with it. The old myths about it not working are vaporizing because the RFID has been used to track livestock back to the sources. It works. It works. It works. Admit it and move on. Michigan requires captive deer have the RFID ear tag just as they do with cows. This fall, a deer tested positive for Chronic Wasting Disease, another one of those pyron diseases, sort of related to Mad Cow in cattle. All the captive deer farms, over 200, were quarantined, the trace back involved two or three farms. They were tested. No traces of CWD was found and the quarantine lifted. Done and done. Crisis averted. Without the ability to accurately trace all deer involved, the USDA would have had to shut down the whole captive deer industry. This way, the public is assured that any CWD positive deer have been removed.

You mean to tell us that your liberty hangs on something as innocuous as NAIS? Wow!

NAIS by itself doesn't raise the value of livestock. By having an effective system in place to focus on disease increases public confidence in meat. That confidence means the public is likely to buy more meat. By increasing demand, the price all farmers get for their livestock goes up. It really isn't a difficult concept to grasp.

If you have a diseased animal and the USDA catches wind of it, you don't "lose money if I have to destroy it.". You should know that's a lie. The USDA pays you for your diseased animal. There are hundreds of cases to prove it.

The fact that the body count from Mad Cow in the US is small, isn't much of a factor. England expects many more human deaths from Mad Cow due to its unususual ly long incubation period, 10 years in some cases. What makes it important is how the market reacts to this dangerous threat.

I done enough looking on the USDA web site to satisfy myself that each separate piece of land a person is operating on would require a separate ID number since the ID is permanently attached to a specific location. I also seen several references to certain parts being a work in progress. The PDF file I was looking at was dated Dec. 2007. There is not enough benefit to the average producer to justify the hassle of dealing with it. There will be no increase in animals tested. It is not a quality assurance program. It is a number with a lot of information attached to it and no assurance of how it all will be used.

With NAIS there would be a decrease in number of animals tested as the source of a problem would be pinpointed.
You're right, it's not a QA program. Never was.

i'm with jeffny on this one-how will they know if your animal caught a disease at the auction barn, stockyard, in transport? Read some of the books written by and about epidemiologists for the CDC-they can barely trace back diseases with people (who can talk to them and tell them where they've been) much less follow the paths of millions of cows. Just b/c they have an id doesn't mean they will be able to figure it all out. I'm against NAIS-To quote Abraham Lincoln "America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter, and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."

and one other thing about the people buying expensive cattle-the horse slaughter example doesn't work. Yes, regular horses have gone down in price but horses with skills and race horses have held their own in prices. People that buy expensive cattle-I would bet most of them have the money to weather tough times, they are using those animals as investments and not thinking they'll make money on the beef from them. I would guess most of them get into a trend, make their money and move on to another trend-and so what if they get tax breaks?

Sammyd,


You think its that easy? They will simply pinpoint the problem? If TB was brought to a farm from an outside source, months later the animal is sold.. Say it was as simple as that single animal. It is traced back to the farm. The records show, no new animals were purchased, instead it came in from another location. The farmer might not recall who has been there, what has been there. That leaves a HUGE hole in the program.

If the animal was tested BEFORE leaving the farm for TB, it would be isolated by the time they read the results (lift the tail, look for reaction). Then that herd is isolated, and work begins to determine if any have been sent off farm. If not, then they proceed with depopulating the herd, or in the case of RuAnn and Maddox dairy, they made an exception (herd didn't need to be depopulated).. They took care of that issue WITHOUT NAIS.

Now with demand. Again, big ag will benefit off of an international buyer. Because that international buyer is likely looking for a large shipment of beef. The large stock yards have that quantity he seeks, the little guy wont. The little guy will be sought out, if an individual wants that beef. In that case, he will likely contact you, and it will be a different deal. So again, your asking for NAIS to create an artifical demand, and its not going to.

NAIS is not looking like a disease control program, its looking more and more like a shoddy control program, that benefits BIG ag.. What id like to know is why they need to know of every chicken, and horse on your farm. Since madcow is the reason why NAIS was drummed up. Chickens dont get Madcow, and we dont eat horse in this country. This is where it starts looking like CONTROL, more than protection..


I swear some people would support any government program no matter how lame it looks. Some simply like BIG government.


Jeff

Has not one thing to do if we EAT Horse Meat or not. I sure love how some just parrot the same ol same ol, stuff, post after post after post. and nothing to back it up one bit. But a Paranoia that is as big as the outdoors. control chipping people,loss of freedom, ALL of these are so far fetched and out in Left field, and that is where they should STAY.

Horses are included....because the system is "designed" to trace disease - think strangles and other equine contagious diseases. Therefore, horses must be a part of the system.

So Jeff is advocating a government requirement that all cattle MUST be tested for all possible diseases before it can leave the farm. Yet he is against big government and against reporting sales and purchases. He is for using F.A.I.R. to hold the data base for all of his high class Holsteins, but if NAIS used that data base to record who buys and sells cows from my farm it suddenly becomes a loss of liberty.

Because I see the benefits of NAIS, you state that I am in favor of all government programs? Please put away your broad brush when painting me.

"You think its that easy? They will simply pinpoint the problem? If TB was brought to a farm from an outside source, months later the animal is sold.. Say it was as simple as that single animal. It is traced back to the farm. The records show, no new animals were purchased, instead it came in from another location. The farmer might not recall who has been there, what has been there. That leaves a HUGE hole in the program."

Jeff, you really haven't been listening have you? When you say outside source, I assume you mean another cow? Because if you are thinking that it might be a Government scientist with a vial of tuberculin, I'll pass on that tin hat discussion, thanks. In the case you present, there would be a record in the data base of where that cow came from when the farmer couldn't recall where it came from. The data base also shows what livestock sales that cow went thru and the date. While it is unlikely that TB would be spread to other cows at that sale, there is a record of what cows were there and where they went. There is a solid trail. You can call it trace back, clues, leads, whatever. There is no hole. Nothing on this green earth is perfect, but there is no hole.

" Then that herd is isolated, and work begins to determine if any have been sent off farm. If not, then they proceed with depopulating the herd, or in the case of RuAnn and Maddox dairy, they made an exception (herd didn't need to be depopulated).. They took care of that issue WITHOUT NAIS."

It was a closed herd, not an exception. NAIS has those situations covered. They call it a closed herd, you call it a loophole for the rich. Whatever.

"Now with demand. Again, big ag will benefit off of an international buyer. Because that international buyer is likely looking for a large shipment of beef. The large stock yards have that quantity he seeks, the little guy wont. The little guy will be sought out, if an individual wants that beef. In that case, he will likely contact you, and it will be a different deal. So again, your asking for NAIS to create an artifical demand, and its not going to."

Where do you think these buyers for international shipments get their cows? Do you really believe that there is a group of big farmers that have exclusive rights to the international market? I see, every week, buyers for a huge packing plant, buying individual cows from farmers of all sizes. While this is in Green Bay Wisconsin, some of their product does get exported. I'm fairly sure that at the slaughterhouse, they don't seperate the meat from big farms for export from the small farmer's beef. The meat is all in there together. At the feed lots, the cows raised by big farmers and small farmers are all being fattened together. At the sale barns, they are run thru either individually or in small lots. They sell without regard to the size of the operation upon which they were raised. Your big guy/ small guy just doesn't wash in the real world.

In the countries that have Avian Influenza, AKA Bird Flu, it is generally spreading along trade routes. In other words from people buying and selling and hauling birds to other areas. In this country we have disease outbreaks in race horses that because of the implanted chip they were able to trace back to the source. Just because you don't eat horse meat doesn't mean that we should do what we can to control the spread of disease. It isn't all about you.

"i'm with jeffny on this one-how will they know if your animal caught a disease at the auction barn, stockyard, in transport? Read some of the books written by and about epidemiologists for the CDC-they can barely trace back diseases with people (who can talk to them and tell them where they've been) much less follow the paths of millions of cows. Just b/c they have an id doesn't mean they will be able to figure it all out."

They can't know that the cow caught the disease at a sale barn. But they will know that the cow was at the sale barn on a specific date. Lets say the cow shows up at the slaughterhouse with signs of TB. With the data base, USDA will know every farm that cow lived at, what feed lot it stayed at and what sale barns it went thru. Now they have some solid clues, a direction to look. They will also know what cows were possibly exposed to this cow. If they find a farm that has TB, where this cow once lived, they can test every farm that bought cows from them If you have another plan, I'd like to hear it. So far anything else relies on mass testing, mass quarantines, all costly to the taxpayer.

I wish that by keeping my cows well bedded and fed clean hay that I'd be safe from disease. I wish that everyone would do the right thing, without laws, rules or regulation. I wish the side of beef in that little butcher shop down town came from a cow born and raised in this county. I wish everyone had access to farm fresh eggs and did most of their grocery shopping at the farmers market. I wish Lassie could tell people that Timmy fell in the well. I wish my grand-daughter's apple drink didn't come from apple juice concentrate from the Republic of China. I wish McDonalds could get enough old cow lean beef here in the US so they didn't have to import New Zealand's old bulls and dairy cows.
But I have realized that I don't live in that made up fantasy world. Little house on the Prairie is a fictional account of a past era. The Andy Griffin Show isn't reality and it never was.

It is great to know how things were done a hundred years ago. Some are still valid. But to cling to outmoded ways places you in a losing situation. For awhile, it doesn't matter if the farm loses money. We justify our methods as a break from modern big farm ways. We focus on self sufficiency. But the years grind on and the SHTF doesn't happen. The rest of the world has passed you by. You almost hope for a disaster, just to make the hard work and sacrifice worthwhile, just one hardy,"I told you so." But that isn't going to happen.

There are ways that the Homesteader can blend our self-sufficient ways with the rest of the world. We cannot exist as if we are not connected with the world.

Instead of digging in your heals against NAIS, please read up on what diseases are causing trouble around the world. Learn how forward contracts effect what you pay for Goat Chow. Figure out ways you can use trends to your advantage. Be inventive, creative.

Carping about a premise number attached to your child's 4H rabbit really isn't worth it.

Nais
 

Question for Haypoint: Haypoint, help me get a handle on how serious this problem is. How many American citizens have perished from Mad Cow in the last ten years? How many cases of Mad Cow have originated from this country in the last ten years?

Haypoints answer: "The fact that the body count from Mad Cow in the US is small, isn't much of a factor. England expects many more human deaths from Mad Cow due to its unususual ly long incubation period, 10 years in some cases. What makes it important is how the market reacts to this dangerous threat."

I'm glad that you admit that your, and the USDA's, fear mongering utilizing Mad Cow is just that... fear mongering. A whole 150 people ( http://www.goveg.com/ABD_madcow.asp ), world wide, have died from Mad Cow. Meanwhile, in the 20th Century, governments killed over 100 million of their own citizens. Why don't you take up a cause that is worthy instead of carrying water for a bunch of despots?

Well since its all been figured out, we have an excellent program that will track disease, wont prevent it before it is spread, but it tracks it afterwards!! In fact its so effective, it will reduce the risk of disease, because disease wont mess with NAIS anymore, no no, it has all these benefits and perks. In fact, its so effective, they want to know about every single animal you have, and best of all. You dont even have to report it right away, no no. Wait 48 hours, perhaps the animal has gone to 2-3 different states by then, but hey, NAIS will save the day. It will miraculously trace it back to its orgin instantly, because disease has markers. In fact, a disease wears a farm name its so effective with NAIS. We wont question that some diseases can spread before they are indentified, and we wont account for some people not reporting an animal that might have just died.. Nope, NAIS will protect us there. In fact NAIS makes me feel so safe, ill even go to the auction barn now, pick up some cattle that might have BVD-PI, bring them in. But hey, if they get sick, I can trace it back (even though my entire herd has been exposed), and find the problem. Just because I can!!!

WOW, how could I have been so foolish to not trust NAIS?? Silly me.


An Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure... AKA testing before they leave..


Jeff

Our "Non-Intrusive" Gov
 

Yes arab man, just a bunch of paranoia ...

"The technotronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society. Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen and maintain up-to-date files containing even the most personal information about the citizen."

--Zbigniew Brzezinski, National Security Advisor to Five Presidents

When Walter Williams (professor at UCLA) was a student, during one of his Social Studies Classes, he spoke out on a profound observation he had:

"Professor, I trust no one. Therefore I do not get fooled. But as a result I have few friends. My wife trusts everyone and is sometimes fooled, but has more friends."

The professor thought for a moment, then asked the young student, " Mr Williams, have you considered the third point?" Clearly, Walter had seen only two sides, two ways of seeing things. He asked the professor, " What could be the third point?

The professor explained, " Don't you understand that most of the time, people just don't care about you, one way or the other?"

And so it is with the government. Some folks may keep everything they do hidden from everyone. Others may live their lives like an open book, as transparent as a sheet of glass. But, either way, for the most part, no one gives a crap about you, your life or what you do. It may give a sense of importance to imagine that someone or something wants to know about you. We are small. We are many. If your neighbors don't care that you pee off the back porch, what makes you think they are cross checking the number of RFID tags you bought to the cost of feed in your income tax report? Saw off the barrel of a shot gun for a Federal agent or have your brother blow up a Federal Building and they'll know all about you. But you can be sure, they won't be using the NAIS data base for that investigation.

Diseases are almost always spread before they are identified. What do you suggest the USDA do once a disease has been identified? Is testing that single herd enough? If not, what do you suggest?
Before an animal sets foot onto your farm, do you require a recent TB test? Do you require a recent Bangs Test? Are all your purchases tested for Hoof and Mouth? How about Anthrax? Didn't they have a few cases in ND last year?

No the disease doesn't have markers, but if the diseased animal has a RFID, the USDA will know where it has lived and from there be able to check every cow that could have been exposed. Not the whole country, not a whole state, not even a whole county. Specific farms and sales facilities.

40 years ago, Readers Digest had a story, "Vicious Chain". It was about venereal disease among teenagers. Every time that a teenager discovered they had picked up syphilis or gonorrhea, the Doctors tried to "trace back" and trace forward, in an attempt to warn these young adults that were spreading disease before they knew they had contracted a disease. People were spreading VD to others before they knew they were infected. The quicker they could get the names of sexual partners, the more effective they were in slowing its spread. Testing every student each week, for every known STD, would be effective but is impractical. The faster the warnings went out to the other exposed students, the more effective the disease control was.

Works like that for livestock. Except there is a lot less mixing in the livestock population and the cows ain't snitching on anyone. So when any disease breaks out, a system needs to be in place to pinpoint what cows have been around what cows.

Expecting farmers to report every purchase or sale on the same day might speed up trace back, but that is too strict for most. Just as expecting every cow be tested regularly for every disease known to mankind is unrealistic in the real world we live in.

If you want to bring a BVD carrying cow into your barn, fine. But just because you are doing a stupid thing doesn't mean that your Reportable Disease is your problem alone. I want a system that attempts to trace back where that sick cow came from, then test and warn everyone that has bought from that farm or has had cows in contact with newly discovered sick cows. You may have discovered a disease, but if my cows were exposed by that cow or another sick cow at another farm, I want a system that lets me know and keeps me from spreading the disease. The NAIS data base will do at least that.

Please detail a better plan and don't give me that overly invasive requirement to test everything for every disease. That's a thousand times more government intervention than NAIS.

No No, your right haypoint. We had it all wrong, NAIS is a great program. It traces back disease after its been sread. It doesn't do anything to stop disease, but it is still a WONDERFULL program. In fact, im going to begin promoting it as the cure all. It will be sold as "the program that traces disease after it has broken out". I will run it under the slogan "Trace it if you got it".


There is a testing program, and it would be a program that the government could give farmers the incentive to actually use, aka maybe $$$. Its called NYSCHAP. Its 100% voluntary, government doesn't need to know, unless you apply it to your herd. You test your animals for Johnes, TB, and other diseases. If your clean, you get designated as being such. This DOES help with marketing..


But hey, your right about it all. Testing your animals is MORE invasive. In fact, it might just give the buyer more comfort knowing the anmal is clean. But how could I get it wrong.. NAIS does it better, it only traces it, but you can still get disease!!! Great program. I love NAIS.


Jeff

Nais
 

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The systems we have work effectively. Outbreaks of disease have been dealt with handily. You have admitted that these diseases are a non-issue with 150 fatalities world wide for Mad Cow. Stop the fear mongering.

Stop the Paranoia should be your calling, as that is all it is. just because something Can Be Done, does NOT mean it IS going to be done. Period end of story.

Status of current eradication programs.http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_hea...ion_status.pdf

History of animal identification.http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_hea...ses/animal_id/

APHIS animal disease list. http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_hea...imal_diseases/

Here is a list of reportable diseases.http://www.aphis.usda.gov/vs/nahss/disease_status.htm

I wonder if your the same type of person that also thought there would never be a fart tax for beef and dairy operations over 26 animals. It hasn't been put in yet (proposition stage), but wait till the next admin. Then you have to obtain a permit to farm.. I find that interesting, not the fine, but a permit?


Jeff

Thank you Allen. Those web sites should be interesting to anyone wanting to know more about what USDA is doing about diseases in livestock in this country.

This web site does a fine job in pointing out the progress in eradication of five livestock diseases. In order to make any sense of it, you’d need to know the meaning of Modified Accredited (MA), Accredited Free (Free) or Modified Accredited Advance (MAA). You would also need to understand the eradication of scrapie is ongoing and cervid TB is still a threat to livestock.
You might also note the absence of several well-known livestock diseases that are not yet common to this country at this time.

Cattle in this country have had recent cases of Anthrax, Bluetongue, Brucellosis, Johne's Disease, Rabies, West Nile, Bovine anaplasmosis, BVD, Enzootic bovine leucosis, Infectious bovine rhinotracheitis and Mad Cow.

Horses in this country have recently tested positive for six or seven different diseases.

In addition to these currently reportable diseases, we have regional disease concerns. Several states have Chronic Wasting disease in captive and wild deer and Elk. Texas has their Splenetic Fever.

The web site on current eradication of livestock diseases is interesting, if you’d read what it says.
Clearly the past efforts have lacked the database needed for rapid trace back. Without the data base, past eradication efforts have required massive quarantines and massive testing or simply mass eradication. The wider the scope of quarantine the more farmers effected. The wider the scope of eradication, the more farmers effected and the more cost to the Taxpayers. NAIS helps narrow that focus thru the use of database.

New livestock diseases are discovered from time to time. It isn’t practical to test all livestock for all possible livestock diseases. It isn’t responsible to simply throw up our hands and do nothing.

NAIS could exist without the RFID tag. The purpose of the RFID tag is to minimize human error. Reading a 15-digit number on an ear tag of a cow going thru a chute at a livestock auction or as it is being loaded or unloaded from a trailer is difficult. Doing it repeatedly without error is unlikely. Can we agree that a $2.00 ear tag that you can read the number on either side, plus can be read with a battery powered reader isn’t a threat to your livelihood?

Then, correct me if I’m wrong, your concern/anger with NAIS is the database? Thru the early portions of this nation’s history, we knew where every cow in the barn came from. If we got a sick chicken, we knew whose flock it came from. But those simple times are gone. Farmers that want to protect their livelihood develop methods to protect their animals. The term for these policies is “Bio-Security”. The USDA in its efforts to protect this nation’s plants and animals has developed policies that limit the risk to the spread of disease. This is done by established quarantines of imported animals and required testing.

As new diseases or outbreaks of diseases previously thought eradicated appear, plans must be in place to deal with these diseases. Diseases spread in different way, have vastly different incubation periods. Combating each unique disease requires unique methods. To be reactive is costly to the farmers and the taxpayers. The USDA must be proactive. They must have a plan in place before an outbreak.

The EPA’s proposal of what has become known as “Fart Tax” is laughable and as such caught a lot of attention a couple months ago. But it is dead. To mention it implies that you are engaged in fear mongering or plugged into a web site engaged in fear mongering or just simply not up to date with the reality of the information.

I don’t believe that Mad Cow is a “non-issue”. While human deaths appear to be very limited in this country, England won’t know the human toll for years to come. Clearly it is a factor to consumers here and abroad. Anything that reduces market share affects each of us. (Except those that are somehow exempt from the supply and demand rules of economics)

You think it is none of USDA’s business to know anything about the movement of livestock. But when a person is hospitalized after eating a pint of strawberries or a bowl of spinach or a green pepper or any of a number of food safety concerns, you expect the “gobmint” to get to the source and correct everything. How can you expect the USDA to protect the American consumer, keep food safety standards and confidence high, protecting agriculture from the harmful impact of a loss of confidence without a plan, without a system, without impacting those that benefit from their efforts?

You act like the NAIS database could be used for some evil government plot. Think about it. If the government, or anyone, wanted to know how many cows or goats or gerbils you have, they could. No one needs NAIS to count your cows. NAIS serves a fairly narrow purpose. Need I say it again? Maintain a database to allow the rapid trace back (and trace forward) of diseased livestock. To assert that it is part of a plan to require chips implanted in each one of us is fear mongering to the addle-brained and laughable to those of us that know better.

Perhaps we share the same wishful dream. That the whole country was a blend of Little House on the Prairie, the Walton’s, Mayberry and Lassie. Ah, wouldn’t that be beautiful? But I understand that isn’t real and there is a much more complicated world out there. I’m not willing to lock my gate and pretend to be separated from everything. I’m devoted to making it in the real world, figuring out ways that the small farmer can compete in the real world. I need to know how to sharpen my scythe, but I also need to know what my input costs are for each bale of hay or dozen eggs I sell. I need to be up to date on rules, standards and regulations in every facet of agriculture, from planting to marketing.

I wondered about that quote you keep referring to, so I googled it. All I got was a few radical web sites that warn of the “New World Order” and such. If you expect me to latch onto such beliefs, you’ll need to do better than http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/deepblacklies_new.htm
If you really believe this type of stuff, I’d recommend you don’t rent the movie Golden Eye. I’m just afraid it would cause you to unplug your computer and I’d never hear from you again.

If 4H helps keep my children interested in farming, I’m not going to put up a roadblock to their participation over something as trivial as a premise number.

R-calf to the rescue.http://oklahomafarmreport.com/wire/n...008_212841.php USDA has backed of its position making NAIS mandatory and established a way for producers to remove their premises ID number from the data base.

Nais
 

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Round and round we go, where we stop nobody knows. NAIS only conquers the trace back, but does not conquer disease. Funny thing, I know those in support have read the USDA site. But you see, I have yet to read an anti-NAIS site yet. I don't parrot things, like some..


Jeff

I have an idea for NAIS, that actually makes more sence than the way it is setup currently.


The problem I have with it, has nothing to do with chipping your animals, that in and of itself is not an issue. In fact, tracing animals I have no problem with.. What I do have a problem with is the government wanting to know each and every animal, and how many on your farm.

The way it should be setup, and if you disagree with this, then your obviously are for government control. When an animal leaves your farm, it must have a RFID tag ONLY. That is, ONLY when it goes off the farm, whether its private or not. This way they could trace it still, but it leaves out the government knowing whether you have 5 or 100 cows.. I do strongly feel that they want to know those numbers, not for disease, since the amount of animals on your farm doesn't really have anything to do with traceability. Is for tax reasons down the road. They will either use it via the IRS, or it will be like your property appraisal, they will tack on the amount of animals x the value to your property appraisal. If you dont think thats possible, then your likely the same person who thought a fart tax wasn't possible.

As I said, RFID tag ONLY when it leaves, no reporting numbers, simply tag so they could trace it back. The way they know is your name is included with each chip.. So it is more an individual vs premsis.

You wont see that, because they want to know EVERYTHING, which happens to be all your animals..

Jeff