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Dexter Cattle inbreeding
I have a half brother and half sister Dexter cattle . Is it ok to breed them? They have the same sire.
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When you do it, you'll be magnifying some of their traits. If they, or the sire of them, has traits that you don't like then don't do it. If you really love them both, it shouldn't be a problem.
I just bought a few belted galloways from a guy with a great looking herd. He's had them for 6 years and he has always used the sire on his daughters. I think using 1/2 siblings on each other would be safer because it would mean the bull continues to have a 50% influence on them, when you cross father/daughter you get a 75% influence. |
Such linebreeding is the method used to firmly establish existing traits to create a new breed, or to expose flaws in configuration of an existing breed that can be selected away from.
Since Dexters are a rare breed, there aren't a lot of different lines out there. Almost all the faults that it's possible to uncover have already been exposed. There's not much danger of you getting a two headed calf from breeding these two together. :) Look your cattle over carefully. If you notice any flaws that you don't want reproduced, then don't breed them together. If they look perfect to you, then go ahead. Genebo Paradise Farm |
Well, you wouldn't get two heads, but if they are both dwarfs there is the possibility of a bulldog calf. If one or both are non-carriers of dwarfism you don't need to worry about a bulldog calf. ck
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well heck dwarfism has nothing to do with their family relation, that would be an issue regardless it seams,
i would go ahead an breed them and see what you get, InBreeding is NOT the devil, it is a tool to be used like any other, there is some good advice on here already so i wont beat a dead horse, |
Genebo is the expert on dexter cattle, but my understanding is that the smaller the population, the greater the danger of inbreeding revealing negative traits. Because the population is small, you can't cull aggressively to get rid of unwanted traits. One example would be the bulldog gene. In a breed with larger numbers, you would never, ever breed a carrier - but in Dexters they simply record it and try to breed to
non-carriers - keeping the bulldog gene alive generation after generation. Inbreeding is a problem in the Holstein breed because of the powerful influence of a few high-milk bulls - but that inbreeding is managed by scientists and professionals. Even then, the inbreeding is probably a contributor to the lowered fertility of the black and whites (the major contributor is probably the intensive-grain diets and environment of modern dairy farming). With dexters you don't have professionals - you have hobbyists who "just love" a particular bull and use him no matter what his traits are. There are hobbyists in other breeds who use awful bulls (my neighbor never castrates anything, has 60 bulls in the pasture, and his herd looks like crap). But, at least in the major beef breeds like Angus or Charlais, there are seedstock producers who know what they are doing genetically. You can get superior genetics from these folks - or scrub angus crosses from the sale barn. The muddy middle ground between the two types of cattlemen - and the raw numbers locally that allow even lazy hobbyists to trade bulls with their neighbors - keep the inbreeding from getting too severe except in some closed herds you know to avoid. I don't think those dynamics apply to Dexters. In fact, I would suspect (and I'm sure that Genebo and the other dexterophiles will correct me if I'm wrong) that there is very little culling of dexter bulls. In many breeds, only one in forty bull calves is kept for breeding (in the AI'd dairy breeds, one in tens of thousands). Because Dexter bull calves produce so little meat and won't be purchased at the sale barn, there is intense economic pressure on dexter owners to sell their calves as breeding stock. If you check out those fancy websites some Dexter owners keep, you'll notice that people who keep ten cows will post five "excellent" bulls for sale each year. As an example, I went to the dexter cattle for sale website and pulled a herd. They have twelve cows and are selling five bulls this year. They are, of course, "too nice to steer." It doesn't strike me much selection pressure has been applied. This is not to say that they aren't nice people and don't really love every bull born on their farm. It is just to say that dexter bulls aren't rigorously selected - which means that the inbreeding issue should concern you. |
Mark T, You are right, sometimes (often) there seems to be little selection of Dexter bull calves. But the breeder in the link you provided in your post has 57 registered females, not 12.ck
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Thanks for the correction cowkeeper - I had just counted the 12 cows shown under "our herd." You must have found a different source. 57 cows should have produced around 28 or 29 bull calves, so that would be an 80% cull rate - not great, but certainly better than 0%.
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Now in response to the person who wanted to know if breeding brother to sister was ok......If they were both exceptional individuals then yes but I would suspect that this is not the case. As far as Genebo being 'the' expert, some would beg to differ. He is well informed, but his response on this subject has shown his lack thereof regarding whats best for this breed. |
Linebreeding is used as a tool by people who have examined their cows and evaluated both good and bad points and then already used the bull to try and improve those things. Usually the breeding to concentrate the traits would be dam/son or daughter/sire because brother/sister would both carry 50% of the dam/sire genes and the resulting calf would be more of a crap shoot instead of an effort to magnify a trait. Usually, but not always it is done in a herd with numbers large enough to justify the culling that is necessary in any linebreeding. Having said that do you know the chondro status of both? Are there any other alternatives for you? You know half the fun of breeding is to create a 'better' next generation and personally I would go and look at your cow and make a list of the things that you like and dislike in her conformation and then try and find a bull that will meet those demands! However if you are just breeding for beef, at least one is chondro free, and you are prepared to cull a heifer if she shows faults then go for it.
Mark you are right on both the issues of chondro, extremely sticky with dexter owners and also on people keeping too many run of the mill bulls for breeding. I wish that I could post your thoughts on one of our boards ... but then you would probably smell the smoke all the way through your computer!!!!! :lookout: (JMO Dexter buddies so don't kill me!) |
alicenfred, I wouldn't...but that's just me. Are you considering this because you have no other option? Are these Dexters registered? If so, check their pedigrees and see how much line breeding there is in previous generations.
Mark T, I agree with you that Dexters won't do well at the sale barn, but when sold as weanling steers to individuals who want to finish their own beef and have some confidence in what goes into that beef, they are ideal and I believe the demand is there. They do take longer than your average commercial animal though, but the beef is excellent. In my experience, it's easier to sell beef steers than breeding stock, so just about all bull calves born here become beef. Onthebit, the problem I see with selling unregistered calves is that I imagine some of them do end up as breeding animals; and I think there's a growing (and, in my mind, disturbing) number of unregistered Dexter animals either because people don't realize what genetics they have or because they don't care. Lots of folks want a bull -- ANY bull -- just to get their cow pregnant. Just my thoughts. |
Hi Gail; I think it's a bit different up here, Canada, because we have to genotype any bull to be registered so it's a bigger deal to sell a breeder for both buyer and seller. In my opinion this is a good thing since most bull calves don't have the 'stuff' to breed and whenever one promising calf is sold as a potential breeder, the buyer understands and takes on a weanling with the added cost because of the 'promise' or in some cases the pedigree. It's still a gamble though! We steer simply because I don't want to deal with a barnyard of testosterone, already got one guy in the house!!! :) Liz
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Unregistered Dexters are sold as beef prospects. I really can't see too many people keeping an un-papered bull to breed a herd. Maybe I am wrong but I find it absurd. I can see people breeding a female without papers for their own personal use but, off that particular farm there won't be a market for the offspring. Do you know of anyone who raises unregistered Dexters and markets them as Dexters? If someone does use the bulls and heifers as breeding stock and they are not registered does it interfere in the genetics of the national purebred herd? I think not!
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Or maybe she can find someone with a Limo bull to breed to!
But what do I know, I'm too busy working on my "fancy" website and reading Michael Pollan and Gene Logsdon books. |
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You wouldn't happen to have any 'Bull' for sale would ya? :banana02: |
Onthebit, you seem to be talking at cross purposes. Going for the small additional weight gain on bulls, would not seem to be worthwhile for a small number. Isnt' that usually practiced by breeders of large beef breeds, where the small extra gain per head on a larger number of animals being sold into the commercial market, would add up? If you are not concerned where those uncastrated, unregistered bulls go to, then you do not seem to have a beef marketing plan. If, as you mention, you wish to sell them as "beef prospects", that would indicate you would be selling to a smallholder. Not many people would want the hassle of a bull, unless they want to breed a cow or two before putting him in the freezer. Also, unregistered heifers...if not beefed by you will end up as someone else's cows..with the misfortune of not having their papers. I'm not talking about heifers with a serious inheritable problem, but heifers that although they might not be keepers for your breeding herd, would be perfectly nice little cows for someone starting out. Too bad to have healthy heifers lose their identity..ck
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IMO there are far too many poor Dexter's out there who are registered and should not be. The registration paper misleads people into thinking they have breeding stock when in fact they do NOT. If someone comes to me and wants a heifer who I deem not worthy of registration, then they will know this and I won't change MY mind since registering or not is my choice. If they want a registered heifer then they can pay me the extra price for a heifer I figure has enough quality to merit registration OR they can go somewhere else and take their chances that what papered animal they are getting is a quality animal or not! |
[QUOTE=Onthebit;3491512]OK, I should have said hanging beef instead of beef prospect. It is my observation that steers don't gain as well as bulls and as long as I have them under control that is how I will continue to raise them. ( I am not alone in this observance)
QUOTE] I have neighbors that NEVER steer their beef-- the bullocks live peacefully in a pasture separate from the breeding bull and cows/calves until slaughter time... |
We have had Gerald Fry speak at a couple of the ADCA national conventions. His website is www.bovineengineering.com. He does advocate what he calls paternal breeding.
His view is that you should go out and find the most masculine, best conformed bull you can find. Then take that bull and breed him to cows, his daughters and his granddaughter. This way you breed those masculine qualities into your herd. Culling real hard. His thought is that too many times we see Bessie out in the field and think that she is a pretty cow so we breed her with a bull. That is called Maternal breeding, breeding the feminine qualities into the herd. He also advocates that you never go outside your own herd for a bull. If you take and use another bull you pull it from your herd only. If you want to add characteristics to your herd to enhance it then go and find those cows and do it that way. The thought is that you have enough genetic diversity in your herd to counteract any issues that might come up. Also the thought is that you are breeding the best qualities back into your herd. As a breeder the thought being that you should keep your offspring and get rid of the parent cows. That way if theory holds true you have bred the best qualities of the dam and the sire into the calf. So why not breed them together ….. Gearld is a really cool guy and has some great info about bull and cow selection….. Chris Ricard Celestial Farms www.celestialfarms.net |
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If I was looking for smaller masculine bulls, I'd go the Lowline Angus route, like these guys: Machine, and Doc Holliday. If there are Dexters that look like these, I'd like to see them. http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p...re_machine.gif http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p...ocHolliday.jpg |
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I'll bet you a dollar that the lowline cows don't give as much milk, either.
Is that first Dexter Boxcar? http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...fParadise2.jpg Genebo Paradise Farm |
Genebo, yup, it sure is! A marvelous bull, easy to work around, loved being brushed (his head would just fall to the ground), good with calves, never nasty, knew his job and did it right every time! A long time ago, he and some cows got out, wandered around the neighborhood, and had a rather nice time for themselves before I discovered there'd been a jailbreak. Boxcar was the easiest one to catch and bring home. Heck of a bull, that Boxcar (Rocky Hills O' Hickory)!
Not to take anything away from Tama Sundance (the red bull), also a lovely temperament, still (at 5 years) a big baby who loves his brushing and treats, comes when called, leads onto the trailer, puts up with my frequent incompetence, and gets the job done. Neither bull has disappointed us, and the proof is in the progeny! Wonderful picture of Brenn, Gene, VERY nice! |
Very nice Gail and Gene! And here is another bull, chondrodysplasia free, not mine, unfortunately! but just to show you that there is all the choice in the world, good choice, within the Dexter breed itself. Why go outside it??
http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/q...DexterBull.jpg |
Liz, are you gonna tell us who that bull is? I wouldn't kick that guy out of my pasture. C'mon now....inquiring minds and all that.
There ARE plenty of wonderful Dexter bulls out there, but we see all too little of them. There's no reason to settle for less. |
And here's one more....will be 3 in March and he's for sale!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...l7-6-08jpg.jpg |
Holy Moly Y'all, those are some ---- good looking bulls right there.
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Looks like the first few bulls shown have some muscle. I could do without the horns.
I would hope Dexters give more milk than lowlines, to compensate for less beef. Though the Dexter cow I had didn't give much, nor was her steer calf very beefy. The answer I've heard given to those complaining about lack of milk from Dexters is that those were the beefy lines and you have to look for specially selected milky lines. To each his own, I suppose. I guess I'm partial to my Lowline/Jersey cross cow, bred to mostly lowline bull. http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p...HeidiRudy1.jpg |
Nice looking cow WA, but not a Dexter! :) I think that all the 'lines' of Dexters should be milky and beefy; they are a dual purpose breed after all. However just like any other breed when the attention of the breeder hasn't extended to the cows' udders when selecting or culling or similarily been focused only on the udder, either milkyness of beefyness can be lost. My girls give between 8 and 12 liters/day which is good output for their size and the steers usually hang from 375 to 450 lbs at around 20 months on grass. There is no question that is half the weight of a steer twice the size :) but Dexter beef is gaining popularity up here because of its excellent quality in smaller packages. Sorry but I guess you can see that I am kinda partial to my breed too!
Gail that bull is ADCA 017104, Hiyu Reiver. Nice youngster you've got! L |
Thank you, LizD. Lucky Marion!
Getting a little off track here, but regarding milk and beef: we don't milk our cows; however, we once had a heifer who needed some assistance with a very full, sore udder upon calving. All the mothering instincts were in full force, but she couldn't get the hang of nursing her calf. With the vet's help, we put her in the chute to milk her out and relieve some of the pressure; the vet couldn't get over how much milk this heifer had! Beef hasn't ever been a problem here, though I'd certainly welcome more bull calves because the demand for good freezer beef is out there. Some udders here are nicer than others, but thus far, all mothers have been able to more than adequately rear their calves to weaning, so in my mind, they're doing well. And, yes, they are supplemented as we want them to have everything they require to feed their calves and stay in good condition themselves. One of these days, perhaps I'll milk one of ours (if and when I ever retire) and then maybe I'll have more to contribute regarding Dexter milk. |
Here is a pasture picture of Doc Holliday, in his working clothes, while breeding about 20 females at age 4. And he was grazing fescue with no supplemental feed. That's "real world" muscle.
BTW, nice cow, DJ in WA! Nice calf too! Lots of red meat! Genebo... I don't know if a Lowline will give as much milk as a Dexter, but they will give enough milk to wean 400+ lb. calves, despite their small size. If you want more milk, look at DJ in WA's cow... cross em with a Jersey! A cow like that will provide more than a family could ever want & still allow the cow to raise a nice calf too. http://cgiwsc.enhancedsitebuilder.co...457fb61bc4283e |
Are these two, 4-5 month old, Lowline heifer calves getting enough milk? I would think so. These are Doc Holliday calves. The pair is fullblood Lowline (100%). No extra feed or creep, nothing but the grass that you see + mineral, salt & water. That's it. More than enough milk, IMHO.
http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/index....ach=5844;image |
Most of those bulls know what a grain bucket is and probably will follow one anywhere. Show me a dexter bull that is 100% grass raised.
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Hi Agmantoo; I don't keep a bull, use AI, but all of my steers are raised on grass and finish really well marbled, albeit at about 24 months. I don't have the great profesional handling facilities and so it's important that they are all 'trained' to grain, in case of fence escapes, garden parties :) etc. but they are not given grain regularily. They are outside with only round bales as shelter and so when the temperature drops to -32 like last week, I grain them for the 'shiver power' but that's it. Most people that I know do the same and the bull that I posted the picture of on page 1 of this thread perhaps has the equivalent of one pound of mixed small grains per week if that. Check out this website http://www.dexterbeefonline.co.uk/ (I'm sure that there are US examples but I don't know them off hand)
Nice cattle guys, Doc's a really nice bull, but like I said before, not a Dexter! :) Liz |
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Wow! Those are some very nice animals. Does a bull get to looking that well without grain? Will I be able to finish my Dexters out on mostly fescue pasture and have quality and taste?
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wigg,
I think the short answer is yes. You will be able to. Will it be easy? I don't know. I doubt you want to just let them go on an acre and try to butcher at 15 months. We're planning on 20-24 months and I think it's really important to rotationally graze... I mean moving them at least every 3 days. When ours are on pasture we're moving them everyday to their daily ration. As time goes on I'm going to try to continue that grazing period farther and farther into the winter. Right now ours are eating hay... I can't wait for spring! I think that the number one element for a steer being "finished" is to butcher when they are gaining. I don't have experience with it, but I'm told that you won't get the best results if they are loosing weight because of lack of feed. It's also very important to have an animal that isn't stressed before butchering. Stress releases a hormone that makes the meat tough. Fescue can create problems, especially for horses, but I do think that you can finish a dexter on it. I think that agmantoo will agree. That's pretty much all he has, minus legumes. Speaking of legumes, if you really only have fescue, it would do you alot of good to add some clover. I'm using ladino and medium red in SE Missouri and they both seem to be doing well. |
Steve, Thanks for the reply. Do you overseed your fescue pasture with clover seed during the winter or early spring? Will the ladino come up this way? I have overseeded some alfalfa and clover a few times lightly for my goats. I do like the Dexters. I'm not sure about the whole registry thing. I have two heifers that I plan to raise slaughter animals out of and certainly will keep nice heifer calves out of. My issue with registry business is that with the Lowlines there is a program in place for breeding towards a fullblood animal with what appears to be a nice little monetary incentive that also promotes the breed. At some point, I might have excess animals and be able to take advantage of marketing the percentages. My two unregistered heifers, but out of registered Dexter stock, can never be bred back to a registered Dexter bull to at least market registered percentage animals to give me the same incentive to stay within that breed. In my opinion, this deters potential enthusiasts and hinders the promotion of the breed. I wonder why the Dexter associations don't give this more consideration?
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Wigg,
If your sole purpose is beef.... I would lean towards the lowlines or crossing yours with lowlines. I like my dexters so far but there are some that I'm ready to get rid of because I can see that they just aren't beef material. That being said, I do like the idea of smaller beef cows and old genetics. I came upon an opportunity to buy some belted galloways and will be breeding two of these heifers to my dexter bull. SO, I'm not too concerned with having registered animals but I think it's important to register heifers that can be registered so that their lines aren't lost. Why can't you "breed up" Dexters? Well, dexters were imported in the early 1900's and then a smaller number were imported more recently but the registries have taken pride in not allowing other breeds into the registry so that they can all be real, 100% Dexters. If you breed them to something else and come up with an animal that you really like, you might as well call it something else. I can understand why Lowlines allow breeding up, because there are so few of them, but do they allow breeding up of any breed? it seems like it would make sense if they only allowed Angus since that's what they are anyways. Okay, on pasture... I have one year of experience under my belt, and lots of reading. We planted alfalfa, ladino clover, and orchard grass late last spring and then over seeded with medium red clover in the summer a little, and in the fall some more. We also added Max Q fescue in the fall (just a little because it was so $$). My experience was that the clover pretty much came up every time. It took a while for it to come up when it was drilled so I think that broadcasting is best. It also worked well to over seed and then rotate the cattle through it to press the seed into the ground. Next time we plant new pasture we'll plant grass in the fall and then try frost seeding the clover and a little alfalfa. On the Dexters you have, if they are from registered stock... you can work with the registry, get it proven, and register them. |
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