A Bold Statement by Greg Judy

Something kind of funny to note here. The guy from Africa that got Mr. Judy going on mob density grazing came to do a seminar at the Judy farm. After the seminar, the man looked at the farm and told Mr. Judy that it was not sustainable. :baby04: The Judy's were grazing three herds in three locations (I forget how the herds were divided) and putting in a lot of extra time and money. After combining most of the animals, the Judy's suddenly had time for each other.

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"Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens. Let us not forget the religious character of our origin."- Daniel Webster(1782-1852)

Cedar Cove Farm

Cedar Cove Farm On Etsy

Great discussion! We use MIG, rotating herd every day through 6 paddocks and our pastures look green and lush - especially compared to all our neighbors. I was considering fertilizing with chicken manure this year in half the paddocks but, Genebo, your quote "A friend in the next county uses chicken laying litter on his fields. It requires him to vaccinate his cattle with CD/T" caught my eye. What is that vaccination for? I was not aware that the chicken litter could infect the cattle with something?

Linda/CloverBell

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www.CloverBellFarm.com
Raising Dexter cattle in Tennessee

Don't know if it would interest anyone but there are organically approved bagged fertilizer from such companies as Fertrell, North American Kelp.. seaweed extract, fish emulsion, etc.

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I was not aware of any cattle 'needing' shots after spreading chicken manure. I think ALOT of it would depend on WHERE you get it.
Commercial chicken factory--or feedlot/confined hog manure? Anything from conventional CAFO will have what you don't want in it. (I worked in one for three+ years. I know what goes on 'behind the scene's!')
Yes, I would take neccesary precautions. Homegrown/free ranging chicken litter? Nope, I wouldn't worry.

Something YOU grow/use you know what IS and ISN"T in it. (Drugs, etc.)
This goes for anything: crops, garden, cows, chickens, hogs, etc. YOU are in control of what you eat and grow. You aren't 'contracted' with so-n-so to buy XX amount of whatever 'cause it is the latest and greatest whatever.

Genebo--your neighbor is on the right track. You don't feel like putting in miles of electric fence for a few weeks?!! Been there, done that!
Tom McL--but people have to 'read up' to know HOW to use these minerals, er, manures....they aren't "conventional"....but that is the glory of it!!

One of my favorite books is "The ALBRECHT Papers" It's very sceintific with experiments (sort of thing I love). For those of you who want to know the "why" of the statement to not use nitrogen fertilizer this book is a must. He highly recommends liming but not nitrogen. He shows exactly what is going on in the soil, how it affects the livestock, and how adding nitrogen from petrolaim products kills the soil and starts a whole series of problems with your livestock (yes, where is spell check when you need it). This is nothing new. It's just not the fastest way to grow grass which seems to be the point these days. He prefers to grow quality first and then quantity will follow as the ground improves. We add lime and nothing else at our place (except for what the animals add) and so far are very happy with the results.

Jay, Fertrell will make any recommended mix needed from soil test and is approved.

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A few days ago I posted a question about fertilizing my pastures. Message from Jay sent me here and am I glad to read all these ideas. Thanks, Jay.

I'm all for trying something new, but what to do now? Most of the posts seem not to cut hay for winter (?). But that's exactly what I need to do. Last year hay here in NC was scarce and low quality and very, very expensive. I want my pastures to grow (as I rotate my very small herd) so I can get hay off my fields so I know where that hay came from.

Agmantoo -- where are you in zone 7, NC? Is it too late to add clover to the pastures?

What can I do NOW? I'm all for doing something besides adding nitrogen and chemical fertilizers. I just don't want to be stuck next winter.

Doc,
Obviously I do not know what your pastures are at this time. I too have had a rough time during the severe drought but I am coming out of it provided we continue to get rain. If your existing grasses are diminishing from grazing at a faster rate than they are regenerating something needs to be done. It is too late to plant ryegrass and to early to plant pearl millet. It is not to late to get ready to plant the millet but you have to have enough grazing to get you through not less than 60 days once the millet is planted. I do the rotational grazing and I have forage for at least 2 months at this time. My neighbor does not have enough forage and is still feeding purchased hay and we both have approximately the same ratio of animals to acreage. Doing rotational grazing is not having 6 or 8 or even 10 paddocks. Doing rotational grazing is providing plenty of grazing for the animals and moving them on to an area that has rested and has had a chance to recover from the previous forage removal. In some instances for example, I can graze the herd (100plus cows/heifers/calves/bulls) on 7tenths of an acre/day and at other times it may take 2 acres+. The main goals are to provide forage for the herd and at the same time not to stress the forages allowing a quick recovery. Prior to the drought I went for 4 1/2 years without feeding any hay so I know it works and over time I have learned how to maximize the system. . Doing the rotational grazing is not labor intensive nor is it as machine dependent as conventional cattle operations. My beef cattle are not at the farm where I live. On the short trip to the beef operation I observe the neighbors working hard in the hot and the cold. It somewhat has an impact on me knowing how little I do and how difficult it is for them. I know that I am the low cost producer and I question in my mind as to how do they "make It". I remain a one man operation and those in the community that raise cattle the conventional way either have family help or hired.

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

I think it was Jim Gerrish that wrote a book "Get the Hay out!" or something to that effect. I haven't read it, but would love to.

The thing I get from most of the MiG people is that everything can be done NOW, but results come later. In other words, you will have to keep feeding hay until your soil is built up. I am starting with the basics. This ground is acidic, so I researched and asked around and found some grass species that will grow in our soil along with a good Legume. The key is to put back what is taken out. The animals do a great job of that except that they, too, lack minerals and nutrients. It really is a combination of things. Good nutrition and good soil, but you can't have one without the other. Alan Nation says to start a new MiG program in the fall, not the spring. Spring is easy to manage with the grass explosion. But in the fall, things get more dificult and where most lose their nerve. Stockpiling a good cool season grass (Tall Fescue, Orchard Grass, Ceral Rye or Annual Rye for examples) and managing it through the winter. In the late winter, very early spring is when to plant. Frost seeding is my method of choice. A 30% legume mixture is ideal, but no more. I would say that sowing now is not too late as most legumes are warm season and won't grow well untill warmer weather anyway. But, this all takes time. In 5 years of management, I should be able to "get the hay out!" So can you. Plan your work, and work your plan.
(Click below and visit my blog to read what I've learned from Alan Nation of the StockmanGrassfarmer.)

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"Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens. Let us not forget the religious character of our origin."- Daniel Webster(1782-1852)

Cedar Cove Farm

Cedar Cove Farm On Etsy

By the way, since it was mentioned, we are a Fertrell dealer in southern Missouri and would love to assist anyone in our area.

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"Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens. Let us not forget the religious character of our origin."- Daniel Webster(1782-1852)

Cedar Cove Farm

Cedar Cove Farm On Etsy

I'm not sure if it was mentioned but the first thing that should be done for soil improvement would be a complete soil analysis.
Also ,just thought I'd mention I'm not involved in any business way with Fertrell other than very satisfied with the products,help given and the way it was given.
Furholler,our Fertrell dealer Richard @ North Slope Farm in Pleasant Mount, Pa. has been great. I've been trying to get up to him and pick up my minerals, kelp and salt for the last week.. I need a closer dealer or more time LOL.

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I would like to explore this further...are there any data, research trials, or documented studies that verify this, or is this one author's "take" on this question?

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Faye Farms Website
Faye Farms Soap

There IS more than one book out on the subject--this is the one I have. But you aren't going to find them in the 'normal' places. Check out AcresUSA's book store (and article archives--those are free!!). They have LOADS of information on soils, and all kinds of 'alternate' farming.

I personally laugh at this term, because 100+ years ago, this WAS the way to farm, putting BACK into the land what we take from it.

The author of this book (Mr. Walters) is an older fellow....and knows his stuff. He remembers the dust bowl back in the 30's. He started Acres magazine in the 70's, and now his son runs it. He contributes monthly still.

Stockman grass farmer has some good books, too. Look at more of the 'alternative' magazines.....there is where you will find more books/articles.

Some folks call it "bio-dynamic" farming, along with other terms.

Here is an old article I found online. Jim Gerrish has a lot to say on grazing, he is no longer in the state of Missouri but does continue to work a ranch in Idaho, I believe. Click here to read: http://www.grazeonline.com/gerrish.html Like I said, it is anolder article, but you might not stress so much about quality after reading this. Quality pasture is what we all want, but it takes time. Concentrate on building the soil while giving your animals enough to eat right now.

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"Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens. Let us not forget the religious character of our origin."- Daniel Webster(1782-1852)

Cedar Cove Farm

Cedar Cove Farm On Etsy

Acres USA does have some valuable information, and I like what some of the farmers in the feature articles are doing.
Unfortunately, the publication has a bent for presenting news releases, statistics, and topics in a sensational and exaggerated fashion that is very biased. They make lots of statements supported by pet theories of one or two individuals without the field trials, studies, or research to document cause and effect. Their manner of presentation of information makes their credibility suspect.
That said, one can still sift through the information and learn without buying into every statement made lock, stock, and barrel. Question everything. Think it through. Discuss it. Then try experiments on your own farm and see what actually works.

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Faye Farms Website
Faye Farms Soap

Here is an experiment I am trying. This is drought abused fescue that has vetch for a legume. Cattle lagoon waste is the only fertilizer it has seen in the past 3 years or so. Thus far I am rather impressed with the come back and the establishment of the vetch. No ground preparation or herbicide treatment was done, just some over seeding of what remained following the severe drought.

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

Oooooooooooooooooo! I have grass envy! My hat is off to your experiment, Looks good.

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"Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens. Let us not forget the religious character of our origin."- Daniel Webster(1782-1852)

Cedar Cove Farm

Cedar Cove Farm On Etsy

This picture is 30 feet to the right of the grass/vetch pic above. Look at the color difference of the rye grain that was planted no till to be a cover crop and mulch for no till corn that will be planted within days. It has been fertilized with regular purchased fertilizer. As you can see it is much greener but possibly I should not compare the different plants.

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

Try google: university, college research on sustainable agriculture. Some are offering courses. Worlds End research center, Rodale Institue..Jefferson's reseach. Its been along time since I spent anytime doing research for studies and don't know how active they are but pretty sure Thomas jefferson isn't. I do think ya have to follow the money when considering both practices. Until the late forties(I think) ag. had to be fairly sustainable. Many of the older books from places like Cornell(Savage and Maynard: Better Dairy Farming 1920's) are pretty descriptive with their practices..Big subject many many opinions.. I love green manuring and compost..LOL..

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I believe the change in ag thought came about in the late '40's, early '50's with the industrial revolution, in advent of mechanical machinery and the once cheap fuel. So, i agree that early writings on the subject are the best. However, there are a lot of modern day practitioners as well. I know I have a lot to learn.

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"Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens. Let us not forget the religious character of our origin."- Daniel Webster(1782-1852)

Cedar Cove Farm

Cedar Cove Farm On Etsy