is it time to throw in the towel?
 

it's me again with the kneeling milk cow.
I put the board under her front legs and she no longer kneels.
But today she kicked too many times to count. She even nailed my elbow with her right front leg. She nailed my knee with her back right leg.
I get out the rope and tie her to the fence like I saw in a photo and she kicked continuously for about a minute until she got it kicked off.

I got about a quart of milk but when the bull moved into the stanchon with her I let her lose.

She is obviously in heat, but on a good day she is a badly misbehaving cow. I own up to this also, because I stopped walking her on a lead rope when I hurt my back about two years ago, and she ran with beef cows for a while.

What should I do? I cannot keep a cow that will not let me milk her, and who in their right mind would buy such a bad cow?

She is almost three years old, I would trade her for an old gentle jersey on her last legs in a heartbeat, but I cannot imagine anyone wanting anything to do with my kicking machine.

Any ideas?

Every cow is different. My first cow has never even tried to kick me, but her daughter wouldn't tolerate me milking. Kicked for days while I fiddled around with this and that, trying the patient cow whisperer stuff.

I finally got tired of it, and right after she kicked, I got up and kicked her in the belly (no damage there - like kicking a balloon).

About 3 times of giving her her own medicine, she quit. That was 6 months ago and she hasn't kicked since.

Maybe someone will report me to the authorities for my "abuse", but sometimes a cow has to know where she stands in the pecking order. Cows knock each other around to establish that, and sometimes that's what people have to do.

I'm sure some cows will never learn, and they need to become hamburger. I wouldn't pass the problem to someone else unless you inform them of it and they might want to make a nurse cow out of her, if she'll take calves.

I got about a quart of milk but when the bull moved into the stanchon with her I let her lose.

She is obviously in heat.[/QUOTE]

Hi, First you must have an area that is quiet. I cannot' imagine trying to milk a difficult cow in an area where the BULL has access to an in-heat cow. You need something across the stanchion, so that she must stay standing, then you can stop the kicking with a rope tied tightly around in front of the udder and hips. That is the only kick-stop aid that I have used, or you could get one of the bar kind. Then, the only place for her to go is sideways. If that is a problem you need to build a stall with a bar to limit her sideways motion.
When all these things are in place, establish a quiet routine and persist with it.

We have a highland that used to kick. If she wanted a treat and didn't get one, she would nail you before you could see it coming. Did that one too many times to the hubby and he gave her a good kick back. She never kicked anyone again and that has been years ago. That's how they treat each other so he was just speaking to her in her language. She figured if he was going to let her get away with it then he deserved it. Now he is seen as the boss cow and she respects him.

We are looking for another Jersey and I'm tempted to tell you to give up and sell her to us. LOL I broke in two milk cows who were kickers last year and I know how frustrating it can be.

Rachel

I would buy her also if you decide to sell ....I am in missouri and can come get her..... tjm

AR, sorry but I'm having a good chuckle at your expense:D

No, it isn't time to throw the towel in but it is time to show your cow who is boss - and it ain't her! I have done exactly as DJ did. Days of being patient and quiet and then one day she booted big time - sent me under the cow in the next bale, the cups all but bounced off the roof and to top it off she then managed to crap and pee at the same time, covering me, the floor, walls and the other cow. I lost the plot big time and gave her several kicks in the gut, laid into her with my ineffectual little stick swearing like a banshee, leg roped her with her leg so far back that if she had tried to move she would have fallen over and then put the cups back on her. I got sod all milk out of her but it was the last time she ever kicked.

On several occasions I haven't even tried to milk cows that are on heat and RWB. They can get at mad as a two bob watch and trying to get them into the bale as well as trying to cut the bull out isn't worth the hassle and can be dangerous. Often too an in-heat cow won't let her milk down so rather than upset the rest of the herd (and they are very much aware of conflab), it's just as easy to skip the milking.

If she's been running with the beef herd, she's probably got a little wild and it's going to take a wee bit of time for things to settle down. Persevere, use your voice for command and don't be chary about using voice and a smart smack when she misbehaves. From your posts, this cow has personality and is going to try you on. Once you've established whose boss I suspect you will have a fantastic cow -and for that reason I would take her like a shot.

Cheers,
Ronnie

I agree it took me some time to realize I had to get tough witht he cows-
Give her a swift kick back. All my cows go threw cranky times. Not really kicking but lifting there leg trying to swat me away which hurts like a kick. I take not crap and they get to a point that I yell Aought..... hey-- adn they watch what they are doing-
Don;t give up and I said before do not feed her till you are done milking.
Liz

This is what we used at the dairy for FFs.

http://www.kvvet.com/KVVet/productr....51B6C5E0803A80

I have seen the device Tailwagging recommends used on many dairy farms with good results.

There also is a device like a big wishbone, but works on approximately the same principle.

My Christine was a notorious kicker; I gave up on milking her, decided to just let her raise calves. She seems to enjoy that, but even now, if I so much as touch her udder, her foot comes up as if it were attached by a lever! :p

This is our favorite device if it comes to needing one for a cow.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6.../SDKicker1.jpg
There is some good advice from other posters.
We have ended up kicking a cow back as well.
Each cow is different. What it takes to get through to one cow doesn't work with another. You need to figure out what works for your cow.
You definitely need to tart by having an area where it is just you adn the cow.
Cows teach us patience. We need to use that patience and a level head when trying to figure out how best to approach a situation. When we lose our tempers we can end up doing things we regret later. This I know firsthand.

You can put a rope around there the kicker hits in front of the udder. Or, if she is fastened in a stanchions you can tie her head up (her head is actually tied around to the side and her nose is up in the air. You want her nose to be facing towards the side away from where you are milking. If she lifts that hind leg to kick, she will lose her balance and quickly put that sucker right back down.
If I have a steppy cow and the milker is already on, somtimes all I need to do is to dig my fingernails in on either side of the backbone.
These types of things can backfire and her letdown can cease.

Mostly routine, a calm demeanor and a comfortable set up are key to successful milking.

This is the Kow Kant Kick that Willow was referring to;
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...R/SDClamp3.jpg
Can you tell it is one we don't use often? Though dad has been using it on Nicolass since she stepped on her teat.

Roseanna, my only concern with the gadgets is that you might have to use them forever. Will that cow kick when you don't put that on her?

I figure if they know what my boot is able to do, and that it is always attached to me and ready to be deployed, they'll behave.

Having said that, I am quite nice to my cows, petting and spoiling them. You can be liked and respected at the same time.

Ronney, nice to know that cows all over the world are the same. :)

We rarely use the kickers.

In Snowdrift's (the cow pictured) case she was to the point where she wasn't needing it either but I used her to get the pictures.

Usually our animals only need a anti-kicking device when they have mastitis or if they have injured a teat. Very few ever have those used on them and most do not require an anti-kicking device for very long. On rare ocassions a first calf heifer may need one. Usually if the milker does not sit properly on the teats and it squaks...then just until the edema goes out of the udder and the milker sits on them nicely.
Mostly though, with the way we kneel beside the cow and lean into them, the stepping and kicks do not connect.

It's the same idea as the foot. You keep the device handy. The first time the animal starts to act up without it on, you put it back on her for a milking. It is a reminder. By the next milking they generally won't consider stepping again.

With the first one pictured they are adjustable. Dad will start them off tight but it gets loosened with every milking depending on the cow's behavior. At some point it simply gets removed.
With Snowdrift, she has some attitude issues, always has and always will. She may wear a kicker about 7 days of a 365 day lactation.

They are good to have on hand and they make the person milking more confident. This in turn is picked up by the cow and milking goes smoothly. The cow will notice that.

Anti-kicking devices are only supposed to be temporary. If a cow always requires them there is something else that needs to be addressed.

Thank you all so much. I have delayed responding because I still don't know what I should be doing.

I want to go ahead and order the anti kicking device, but then I think why spend even more money on this cow?
I have tried to milk her and now I am the one who is skittish. I still have the bruises from the last little dance and I am not wanting more.

This has been a crummy week, I will wait and see if things improve and if they don't, then I will be happy to sell this cow,after I list every thing about this little "cutie". I would not dream of selling this cow unless I communitated clearly full disclosure. That just wouldn't be right.

Thanks, I appreciate all the advice given and have taken it to heart as well.
ar

those work really well. I used them years ago myself

Cheap and easy route here. Take a length of rope. When you have her locked up to milk her put a loop around her front ankle area. Left up the leg and tie it off on some thign to keep her leg up. Becareful the first time she goes to kick. She will be real off balance and will not kick after that. I have used the cant kicks in the past plus nose leaders and done tied up the front legs. I have had only one cow figure out to put her weight on the rope and still kick you.
If I could find the pic of my leg from a few yrs ago I would show you what a nasty kicker can do. She did not kick behind her much it was when you was by her shoulders and stanchions you got it. Wanted to shoot that cow that night but the wife would not get the gun. After that round I never had much problems with her. That was 4 yrs ago. She died last yr after calving. She threw her calf bed. Turned out to be a real nice milker and all. Hated to loose her.
Bob

If you decide to go ahead and sell, let me know.

Rachel

Madsaw;
Your post made me wince and then laugh. Nope, I don't need to see a photo of that arm, I can imagine well enough.

As I said before, I will wait and see how I feel later on this week, I know well enough that this is not the week to decide.

We had a death in the family and even though it was expected and were truly glad that the pain has stopped, you still have to work through the details.

Again, thanks, and I will keep you posted if I decide that sugar needs a new home --with full discloseure for sure.

ar

I was just thankful it was me getting the **** kicked out of me. If it was my wife or aunt the cow would have drug them down under her and killed them. I been working with milk cows for 20 yrs. I have had a share of hard cases. But, this one was a older first calf heifer that got cut on some barb wire. AFTER milking her I was just being nice by putting some udder balm on her. Her and I got along after that. I used the kant kicker on her after that.
I saw a doc 8 days later due to a very tender spot that was hot to the touch and had a hard pea sized mass in it. After ultra sound and a good check up. The doc thought it was a blood cloat, but on a bad note the spot was gone a little before I had the check up. So, she said it was on the move and I was very lucky. She told the wife later she never seen such bruising on a live person before.
Bob

I read that 3 or 4 homesteading wives are killed a year by their cattle.

I don't think I will show your response to my dh. He will gladly support my "habit" as far as he can, but he has told me time and time again that if he thinks enough is enough she will be gone. I can abide by that.

Also glad your wife was not hurt, and also glad that you are still kicking. (pun intended).

In time you will come to learn when they are going to kick. If you snug your shoulder tight in front of their leg and push when you feel them tense up. It sometimes enough to unbalnce them at the moment and they will not kick. I am of a size I can bully a smaller cow around. I am about 6' 250. Also if your hands are strong enough hold on to the tendon on the back of the leg. It will give you some control and if the pressure is applied right it will mess up their kick. Most of all stay close so they can not get a good swing at you. We had one little jersey she could kick ever direction she wanted to with her back legs. Was always a suprise when she kicked straight out to the side and gets yeah.
Bob

Grandpa's pliers weren't always for torquing things. Sometimes they were for peening nasty cows right between the eyes. My older brother recalls that being pretty effective.

I hope you get things worked out with this girl one way or another.

Cloverbud,
Were about are you in teh state line area? I am over in teh western sid eof the state here.
Bob

I'm just southwest of Rockford.

I don't like to be mean to cows, but when we milked we would have a cow occasionally get down on her front legs. We usually just gave them a good wack with a stick until they stood up, after a couple of times they got the hint. For the kicking I would use a pair of hobbles on her, you may have to do it every time you milk her or she may get over the kicking.

Bob

You also have to realize when you do kick the belly....the milk vein/well is there.
You risk damaging one of the most important reasons you own the cow.

Roseanne, that makes sense. I guess if you have enough cows, it would be worth having a device. With 2 cows, I've only needed to correct a few times in several years.

Jay, I'm aware of the milk veins, but didn't realize they were that fragile. Have you actually heard of them being injured from boots, or cows fighting, or whatever? In my few times using the boot, I go for the center of the belly.

Seems to me the correction needs to be immediate so the cow can associate it with her recent sin.

i have kicked a cow before, never under where the veins are, just use your shin and kick the low side, they get the hint,

Yes by kicking them in the stomach area you can cause bruising and damage teh milk veins in that area. They can become infected adn swell up and be real nasty. Also a hard enough hit low on the side they carry tha calf on may cause injure to the calf and may even cause them to abort. Granted it would take a cow kicking or buntin them but do you want to chance it.
A real attention getter for cows is a open hand slap on the fleashy part of the back leg or the rib area. It stings and makes a load noise. Or just get a little hand held hotshot. One or 2 times of getting zapped with it all the need to do is hear it from there out.
Bob

I can easlily push in the vein with a finger. Feel for it. The center of the belly is the milk well.

Look again at the second picture--on her lower belly--there's your milk vein on that side. You can see it in the first pic, too, just not as easily.

I have seen a vet get mad at his kids' show steer and whack it between the eyes. Went down and never got back up. That's what anger gets ya!

Tailwagging, I am very happy to report that I have ordered the cantkick device that you told me about and I can't wait! I milked last night and it went much better, but my dh was with me and I think that made all the difference. He just can't be with me every time I milk however.

Thank you so much for sharing the web site, I will certainly post my results.

ar.

i second loud noise
they hate it

they also hate to step on things they cant see...

try this...if she is not in a stancion, block her vision some how, and put dog toy squeakies arround her feet( especially round ones) and encourage her or let her stomp, she will hate it. if you can make a frame that holds the items arround her feet that would be better. This is a theory of mine based on real life experience....let me know if it works...

also when training, forget hitting the bucket
sometimes I actually have to stand and lean on them when they keep turning into me. Its like a reverse rodeo, they are trying to throw you off, once they find out what works they will keep doing it.

Talk about throwing things. We have a steer that when he was in his first year would occasionally try to jump on you like a dog would. He is extremely friendly. Well, he tried it once on DH when he happened to have a hammer in his hand, well the hammer went flying and hit the steer on top of his head, steer never did it again even to me. I felt bad for the poor thing but he had to stop or he was going to the butcher very early. So, I guess it works.